a victory for liberty over tyranny

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Kazak_Hstan: Apr 28, 2014; Grimey Drawer

every time the bundys win nerds fight to the death

# ? Aug 26, 2017 10:52

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# ? May 11, 2024 09:35

Alan Smithee: Jan 4, 2005; A man becomes preeminent, he's expected to have enthusiasms.

Enthusiasms, enthusiasms...

gently caress all Bundys from wanker county

# ? Aug 26, 2017 13:12

1994 Toyota Celica: Sep 11, 2008; by Nyc_Tattoo

man, weird that the judicial system's reliance on filtering towards the dumbest, whitest juries possible in voir dire results in juries that won't convict right wing extremists

a real puzzler that one

almost like the system's geared to go after other types of people

# ? Aug 26, 2017 13:35

corn in the bible: Jun 5, 2004; Oh no oh god it's all true!

Jose posted:

and now they might all get murdered the next time they decide to push their luck lol

Not with this administration

# ? Aug 26, 2017 14:48

Azuth0667: Sep 20, 2011; By the word of Zoroaster, no business decision is poor when it involves Ahura Mazda.

nm posted:

Please tell me, in all your jury trial experience how you'd achieve "Aggressive punishment of attorneys who go for it. The judge probably should've declared a mistrial and gone for punitive measures the instant it was clear the defense attorneys were shooting for this. This time around they were practically taking a sovcit stance." without actively hindering the ability to put on a defense.
Appealing to sympathies is pretty important to defending someone accused of committing a crime. The overwhelming bias of jurors against the average defendant just because his is sitting at that defense table is powerful, particularly if he is a minority. If you open the door to allowing the judge, who quite frankly is 9/10 pro-prosecution, to shut all that down because you're seeming a little to nullifcationy, that's not going to mostly hurt a few rednecks with guns, but poor, black and Hispanic defendants who the middle class white people that serve on juries see no reason to give the benefit of the doubt to.

I get it, you're pissed that a bunch of assholes got off, but unless you're willing to propose a system that will prevent this type of situation better than teaching prosecutors how to pick a loving jury (they tend to be really bad at it) without limiting the ability of a defense attorney to humanize his client, I'm all ears. Massive, sweeping changes to the criminal justice system because people are angry about some crime have worked so well in the past. See: Three strikes, California's Proposition 8 (truth in evidence), any law named after a dead person, sex registration, etc.

edit:
I see you made some edits, so lets just latch on to one

So if you ban defense attorneys from bringing up conspiracy theories, how do they address:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/22/us/baltimore-police-video-bodycam.html?mcubz=3
http://ktla.com/2017/08/18/mass-sho...ormant-scandal/
etc
Now the above are cases where someone did the right thing before the case went to jury, but these types of cases go to jury trial as often as they get dismissed or otherwise dealt with properly. When it comes to police misconduct, it often is a conspiracy theory that sometimes turns out to be true. Where do you set the line where a defendant can bring that up? The fact is that you don't have much more than some circumstantial evidence to weave into an argument because your client is some meth head who got his head beat in, and you're against a well funded and trained organization that finally learned not to write incriminating poo poo down. So when is it a conspiracy theory and when is it a valid defense? And who gets to decide? The judge who was probably a prosecutor and also wants to go play golf?
Oh and if you're going to argue an appeals court can fix it, let me introduce you to the term "harmless error" which excuses all but the most grave mistakes as long as it looks like the defendant did it.

----
Let me b clear that I'm not happy that these people are walking. However, I'm not willing to change the legal system in a way that makes convicting people easier. It is already generally way to easy to convict people. I would support the AUSAs getting some jury selection training -- you would be amazed what someone actually good at jury selection can do. There is a reason why defense attorneys focus on jury selection the most of all while for some reason prosecutors keep focusing on their closings. At that point, you've already won or lost.

This was from awhile ago:

Frye hearing but, adapted for vetting jurors? The best idea would have probably been to move the case instead of try it in sov cit land.

# ? Aug 26, 2017 16:04

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Azuth0667 posted:

This was from awhile ago:

Frye hearing but, adapted for vetting jurors? The best idea would have probably been to move the case instead of try it in sov cit land.

How would you adapt a standard for expert witnesses to jury selection?
You get to voire dire the jurors.

Also, hard to get a federal jury from not sov cit land as the federal courts draw from much larger areas. The first trial was in portland ffs, but drew from all of oregon.

# ? Aug 26, 2017 16:12

Evil Fluffy: Jul 13, 2009; Scholars are some of the most pompous and pedantic people I've ever had the joy of meeting.

Jose posted:

and now they might all get murdered the next time they decide to push their luck lol

I'm sure Donald Trump's administration is definitely going to go WACO on a bunch of white wing terrorists. :rolleyes:

Though given his temper tantrums I do give it slightly higher odds than if a Democrat wins in 2020 since unless America has a brief moment of clarity we'll end up with another meek rear end in a top hat like Obama.

# ? Aug 26, 2017 16:53

Azuth0667: Sep 20, 2011; By the word of Zoroaster, no business decision is poor when it involves Ahura Mazda.

nm posted:

How would you adapt a standard for expert witnesses to jury selection?
You get to voire dire the jurors.

Also, hard to get a federal jury from not sov cit land as the federal courts draw from much larger areas. The first trial was in portland ffs, but drew from all of oregon.

I was thinking more vetting an idea instead of an expert. Instead of vetting RFLP and PCR you vet for sov cit beliefs and conspiracy theories. The more I think about it that's probably already part of vetting a jury.

How about making juror a profession instead? Like a public service career profession.

# ? Aug 26, 2017 17:09

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Azuth0667 posted:

I was thinking more vetting an idea instead of an expert. Instead of vetting RFLP and PCR you vet for sov cit beliefs and conspiracy theories. The more I think about it that's probably already part of vetting a jury.

How about making juror a profession instead? Like a public service career profession.

To the first part: but explict vetting for nullification and the like can backfire. However, you can probably do a pretty decent job if you're good at jury selection just as these defense attorneys do a good job selecting for it.

To the second: the problem with professional jurors would be the same as judges. At some point they get cynical, see themselves on the law enforcement team, see the same cop so many times that they trust him more, etc.
Generally, you tend to want to select out jurors who have sat on too many juries before because they find it routine and easier to convict.

# ? Aug 26, 2017 18:01

Facebook Aunt: Oct 4, 2008; wiggle wiggle

Evil Fluffy posted:

I'm sure Donald Trump's administration is definitely going to go WACO on a bunch of white wing terrorists.

He will if they criticize him and make him look bad.

# ? Aug 26, 2017 19:24

Prokhor Zakharov: Dec 31, 2008; This is me as I make another great post

Good luck with your depression!

Evil Fluffy posted:

I'm sure Donald Trump's administration is definitely going to go WACO on a bunch of white wing terrorists.

lol if u think the fbi is gonna follow The Donalds orders in a situation like that (or any situation for that matter)

# ? Aug 26, 2017 19:43

Doc Hawkins: Jun 15, 2010; Dashing? But I'm not even moving!

How about The Sessions' orders?

# ? Aug 26, 2017 19:56

syscall girl: Nov 7, 2009; by FactsAreUseless; Fun Shoe

Facebook Aunt posted:

He will if they criticize him and make him look bad.

Wait, people can make him look worse than he already does?

I'm building a compound right loving now

# ? Aug 26, 2017 20:45

Kazak_Hstan: Apr 28, 2014; Grimey Drawer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUFLtR4g_fU

wow what an unforseeable turn of events

# ? Aug 26, 2017 23:00

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Kazak_Hstan posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUFLtR4g_fU

wow what an unforseeable turn of events

I'm glad someone thought to keep following him.

# ? Aug 26, 2017 23:09

xthetenth: Dec 30, 2012; Mario wasn't sure if this Jeb guy was a good influence on Yoshi.

Kazak_Hstan posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUFLtR4g_fU

wow what an unforseeable turn of events

What is this video? It's already gone.

# ? Aug 27, 2017 01:24

Wasabi the J: Jan 23, 2008; MOM WAS RIGHT

xthetenth posted:

What is this video? It's already gone.

Dude threatening a judge for continuing to work through the docket.

# ? Aug 27, 2017 01:43

Kazak_Hstan: Apr 28, 2014; Grimey Drawer

Specifically, David Fry threatening to to assault and kidnap the "bitch oval office" judge presiding over the Bunkerville cases, and calling on others to join him in the effort.

# ? Aug 27, 2017 04:20

Casimir Radon: Aug 2, 2008

Is this a recent video?

# ? Aug 27, 2017 04:31

TotalLossBrain: Oct 20, 2010; Hier graben!

Yeah he posted it today.

This tweet has another link:. https://twitter.com/jjmacnab/status/901632369462919168

# ? Aug 27, 2017 06:59

Platystemon: Feb 13, 2012; BREADS

Remember when this thread had a soft spot for Fry?

# ? Aug 27, 2017 07:02

Casimir Radon: Aug 2, 2008

Fry isn't in the Southwest or Pacific Northwest so he might face actual consequences for this. Throw the stupid fuckhead in an asylum until he stops acting like this, which in all honesty will probably be never.

# ? Aug 27, 2017 08:27

Alan Smithee: Jan 4, 2005; A man becomes preeminent, he's expected to have enthusiasms.

Enthusiasms, enthusiasms...

wow what a loving goonlord

make him secretary of balloon doggies already trump

# ? Aug 27, 2017 12:02

Azuth0667: Sep 20, 2011; By the word of Zoroaster, no business decision is poor when it involves Ahura Mazda.

Say Trump pardons all of these people. Does that mean civil suits would be really easy to win against them since they have to admit guilt to get the pardon?

# ? Aug 27, 2017 15:00

Evil Fluffy: Jul 13, 2009; Scholars are some of the most pompous and pedantic people I've ever had the joy of meeting.

TotalLossBrain posted:

Yeah he posted it today.

This tweet has another link:. https://twitter.com/jjmacnab/status/901632369462919168

We the jury, that definitely doesn't contain sov-cit and anti-government jurors, find David Fry not guilty of threatening to kidnap a judge.

# ? Aug 27, 2017 18:21

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Azuth0667 posted:

Say Trump pardons all of these people. Does that mean civil suits would be really easy to win against them since they have to admit guilt to get the pardon?

The admission of guilt is implicit, not full and formal. So it'd help a ton, but probably not fully dispositive.

# ? Aug 28, 2017 04:34

I would blow Dane Cook: Dec 26, 2008

quote:

FBI Criticized for Violent, 51-Day Siege of Polyphonic Spree Compound

DALLAS � The FBI�s Hostage Rescue Team was condemned by civil liberties advocates today for their �needless use of force� in removing the many-membered music group The Polyphonic Spree from the band�s Texas base of operations, according to officials.

�Our team had good intel from the band�s official Facebook page that they had imminent plans to leave the country,� said FBI investigator Samantha Brown of the seven-week effort. �Something they internally referred to as a �World Tour� � probably to brainwash and recruit more members. We had to act fast to get these musicians home to their worried families before it was too late.�

Federal investigators were surveilling Polyphonic Spree leader Tim DeLaughter, long known for recruiting down-on-their-luck vocalists in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, for over two years. Some experts feared his legions were now well into the hundreds.

�Initially, we attempted nonviolent methods to draw them out. We played Mongolian throat singing, an all-tambourine concept album, and we even had Zach Braff try to talk some sense into them,� said Brown. �But they just kept singing to themselves and doing some weird hand-clap dances with disgusting positivity. That�s when we switched to traditional tactics.�

What followed, according to witnesses, was an onslaught of cut utilities, forced entry, beanbag cannons, and crowd-control chemicals to flush the band out. Civil rights advocates claim the band did nothing to warrant such violence.

�The Polyphonic Spree just wanted to make the world a better place, with a fun, unique, choral-rock experience,� said ACLU spokesperson Jim T. Fox. �I mean, the way they dress does make them look like a bunch of wackadoos, but they seemed nice when I saw them on Conan.�

Despite the criticism, FBI officials maintain their use of force was justified.

�Every group of robe-wearing predators insists they�re on a peaceful mission. But we are sure they�re hiding something,� said FBI spokesperson Jonathan Liverton. �Every cult is like that � even ones featured on a startlingly high number of film soundtracks.�

Medical staff on scene report that all accounted members have suffered only moderate injuries.

�We have 28 Polyphonic Spree currently members in our care, but we worry more may be trapped under debris. Unfortunately, nobody in the band knows for sure how many people are in it,� admitted first responder Clark Woods.

http://thehardtimes.net/news/fbi-criticized-violent-51-day-siege-polyphonic-spree-compound/

# ? Sep 1, 2017 02:27

Wasabi the J: Jan 23, 2008; MOM WAS RIGHT

Are you not aware the Hard Times is a parody news site?

# ? Sep 1, 2017 02:33

I would blow Dane Cook: Dec 26, 2008

Wasabi the J posted:

Are you not aware the Hard Times is a parody news site?

yes

# ? Sep 1, 2017 02:41

BENGHAZI 2: Oct 13, 2007; by Cyrano4747

Hard times jokes peak with the headlines but their headlines are fantastic

# ? Sep 2, 2017 21:08

andrew smash: Jun 26, 2006; smooth soul

My favorite: http://thehardtimes.net/news/punks-out-of-office-email-response-needlessly-offensive/

# ? Sep 3, 2017 06:19

BENGHAZI 2: Oct 13, 2007; by Cyrano4747

andrew smash posted:

My favorite: http://thehardtimes.net/news/punks-out-of-office-email-response-needlessly-offensive/

"Out-of-office message?” he asked. “Oh no, I haven’t seen that. But I am NOT happy about calling one of my employees, only to receive a voicemail greeting saying, ‘Not sorry I missed your bullshit call, I’m on vacation you fat fucks.’”

Remember that dude on Reddit last Christmas who was trying to figure out how he could punish s guy for not answering his phone on vacation and everyone just called him an absolute piece of poo poo

# ? Sep 3, 2017 11:42

WrenP-Complete: Jul 27, 2012

https://twitter.com/jjmacnab/status/906341391894118400

# ? Sep 9, 2017 04:23

hangedman1984: Jul 25, 2012

WrenP-Complete posted:

https://twitter.com/jjmacnab/status/906341391894118400

gently caress, and Trump will do it to won't he?

# ? Sep 9, 2017 13:48

Evil Fluffy: Jul 13, 2009; Scholars are some of the most pompous and pedantic people I've ever had the joy of meeting.

Pretty sure I said this would happen back in November after Trump won. All someone has to do is say "hey if you do this your base will love you even more" and it's a done deal.

# ? Sep 9, 2017 16:32

TotalLossBrain: Oct 20, 2010; Hier graben!

Hell yeah

# ? Sep 9, 2017 16:34

Kazak_Hstan: Apr 28, 2014; Grimey Drawer

Welp three-ish weeks from trial, about time to fire the lawyers.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news...case/691646001/

quote:

"Bundy is not solely focusing on the defense of his own case and instead potentially focusing on what I can only describe as collateral arguments that will perhaps not have a positive effect upon his defense at trial," Dows wrote.

90% chance it's the same flim flam that has generated acquittals, but you have to think there's 10% for a reprisal of theories on the negro.

# ? Sep 22, 2017 18:18

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Kazak_Hstan posted:

Welp three-ish weeks from trial, about time to fire the lawyers.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news...case/691646001/

90% chance it's the same flim flam that has generated acquittals, but you have to think there's 10% for a reprisal of theories on the negro.

I think he's trying to gently caress his lawyer. Literally. That is what my lawyer sense is telling me.

# ? Sep 22, 2017 18:27

Egg Moron: Jul 21, 2003; the dreams of the delighting void

Kazak_Hstan posted:

Welp three-ish weeks from trial, about time to fire the lawyers.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news...case/691646001/

90% chance it's the same flim flam that has generated acquittals, but you have to think there's 10% for a reprisal of theories on the negro.

I sat down and watched the PBS frontline about all of this the other day and it seems like the government really hosed up their own cases by pursing nebulous conspiracy charges which fail to stick when juries go back and deliberate.

# ? Sep 22, 2017 18:27

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# ? May 11, 2024 09:35

Kazak_Hstan: Apr 28, 2014; Grimey Drawer

nm posted:

I think he's trying to gently caress his lawyer. Literally. That is what my lawyer sense is telling me.

I don't think his lawyer is a feral cow, so I doubt this.

Over Easy posted:

I sat down and watched the PBS frontline about all of this the other day and it seems like the government really hosed up their own cases by pursing nebulous conspiracy charges which fail to stick when juries go back and deliberate.

Partially this is the result of proprietary jurisdiction, which limits the full scope of title 18 substantive criminal charges leaving the conspiracy charges (moreso in Oregon), but it's pretty impossible to ignore things like the guy who was arrested in the malheur truck in town being acquitted of vehicle theft, the acquittals on the weapons possession charges in Oregon, and Eric Parker not being convicted of pointing guns at law enforcement when he was photographed doing it. There was nothing confusing about those charges, regardless of whether the jury was capable of comprehending the conspiracy charge.

But, for instance, if the governor of Oregon were actually as disappointed in the outcome as she said, her state government had full power to prosecute them for burglary, theft, vandalism, all the easy to understand state charges.

# ? Sep 22, 2017 19:40

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