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Phylodox posted:Dude, seriously, I've never seen someone flail around so strenuously trying to convince someone (yourself?) that good movie is really bad movie. You just keep popping up at random doing your whole "This movie is banal! Have I mentioned how banal this banal movie is? Banal!" schtick, then, if anyone actually engages with you and explains why you're wrong this time, you pivot around from argument to argument trying to make some point that only you understand. I guess it's that action movies' callous disregard for the lives of their minor antagonists is somehow unsupportable now? I guess meekly surrendering to people who very obviously mean you ill should be everyone's go-to move. Or completely forgetting someone you very recently had sex with even exists is totally normal, healthy behaviour? God, what kind of goon thinks that's unhealthy?!? 
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Aug 30, 2017 08:04
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Phylodox posted:Dude, seriously, I've never seen someone flail around so strenuously trying to convince someone (yourself?) that good movie is really bad movie. You just keep popping up at random doing your whole "This movie is banal! Have I mentioned how banal this banal movie is? Banal!" schtick, then, if anyone actually engages with you and explains why you're wrong this time, you pivot around from argument to argument trying to make some point that only you understand. I guess it's that action movies' callous disregard for the lives of their minor antagonists is somehow unsupportable now? I guess meekly surrendering to people who very obviously mean you ill should be everyone's go-to move. Or completely forgetting someone you very recently had sex with even exists is totally normal, healthy behaviour? God, what kind of goon thinks that's unhealthy?!?  What seems to have happened is that you've reached a boiling point of cognitive dissonance. You have to reconcile two incompatible thoughts - that GotG1 is a sensitive, soul-searching movie about trauma and love, and that GotG1 is (by your own admission) the kind of action movie where the lives of certain characters and groups are treated with casually sociopathic disregard. GotG being about love and family as you describe can't really be reconciled with Quill killing people for the sake of money. It'd have to be satirical. I'm not criticizing GotG1 for having it's protagonist be a remorseless killer who's also a goofball manchild. I'm criticizing how the creators did not do enough with this Zapp Brannigan-esque characterization, which led to them making an incomplete satire. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 09:16 on Aug 30, 2017 |
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Aug 30, 2017 08:25
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I've never added anyone to my ignore list before, but I'm pretty tempted, let me tell you. Can't do it on mobile, though, can you?
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Aug 30, 2017 08:26
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When asked why a character killing people in order to make money doesn't count as characterization, "it's just an action movie so it's not important" is not an actual answer. The thing about action movies is that they foreground violence. Violence is the point. It's what's entertaining about them. What happens in the movie is that Quill is living out his childhood fantasy of being a space adventurer, he kills people in order to further it, and it turns out that it was completely justified in retrospect. He then continues to kill the same group of people in order to save the galaxy. He's never punished for his murderous greed, it simply becomes irrelevant and is quickly forgotten when the scope of the conflict becomes clear. He becomes the moral pillar of the group because he lectures others on common sense behaviour like not storing bombs in unsafe places or not killing each other over insults. His decision to fight the villain in the end is an extension of that. There's no change from which this stems, he simply starts doing this after they escape from space prison, and his characterization as a Zapp Brannigan - esque wannabe is sidelined. So what the movie is effectively saying isn't that Quill's space adventure fantasy isn't bad because it's empty and unfulfilling, but that it's too unambitious. e: Consider the basic description of Quill's basic character arc: he's alone, and is truly happy when he finds a family. You just need to add in why this happens and you'll see my point; he's alone as a solitary space adventurer who kills people for money, and is truly happy when he finds a family of space adventurers who kill terrorists for justice. The "depth" of the characters' internal lives is meant to make this plot palatable by distracting from it. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 11:20 on Aug 30, 2017 |
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Aug 30, 2017 10:36
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Phylodox posted:I've never added anyone to my ignore list before, but I'm pretty tempted, let me tell you. You could also just stop reading their posts. Its remarkably easy.
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Aug 30, 2017 11:14
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Chris Pratt expresses the character's surprise at having failed to kill a black man.  BravestOfTheLamps posted:Chris Pratt expresses the character's surprise at having failed to kill a black man.  I can't think of any good faith reason for you to have gone back and edited this detail into your post.
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Aug 30, 2017 12:07
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LeJackal posted:I can't think of any good faith reason for you to have gone back and edited this detail into your post. That was not the part that was edited in, so you don't have to.
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Aug 30, 2017 12:14
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:That was not the part that was edited in, so you don't have to. I can't think of any good faith reason for you to have highlighted this detail into your post.
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Aug 30, 2017 12:19
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Phylodox posted:I've never added anyone to my ignore list before, but I'm pretty tempted, let me tell you. I think so, it's in there somewhere, you just can't reverse it from mobile I believe. Some posters are just radioactive assholes and ignoring them is fine. 
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Aug 30, 2017 14:28
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Phylodox posted:I've never added anyone to my ignore list before, but I'm pretty tempted, let me tell you. He's the only Goon I've ignored and yes you can do it on mobile. The weird thing is that as much as he hates this movie, it's the only thread I see him post in and the o ly thread where people actually engage him attempting actual discussion. He's just a dweeb with bad opinions, possibly aspergers, and should just be ignored.
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Aug 30, 2017 14:31
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LeJackal posted:I can't think of any good faith reason for you to have highlighted this detail into your post. It's a joke about how GotG features a white guy trying to kill a black man for the sake of money, and he's the sympathetic viewpoint character. The observation that Quill is a greedy murderer is irreconcilable with him being an everyman schlub and audience stand-in, which is why fans are doing their best to ignore it. Even the movies try to ignore it, so it's understandable. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Aug 30, 2017 |
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Aug 30, 2017 16:00
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Loudly talking about the users you've ignored instead of just ignoring them and moving on with your lives is a bad look IMO
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Aug 30, 2017 16:04
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Phylodox posted:Dude, seriously, I've never seen someone flail around so strenuously trying to convince someone (yourself?) that good movie is really bad movie. You just keep popping up at random doing your whole "This movie is banal! Have I mentioned how banal this banal movie is? Banal!" schtick, then, if anyone actually engages with you and explains why you're wrong this time, you pivot around from argument to argument trying to make some point that only you understand. I guess it's that action movies' callous disregard for the lives of their minor antagonists is somehow unsupportable now? I guess meekly surrendering to people who very obviously mean you ill should be everyone's go-to move. Or completely forgetting someone you very recently had sex with even exists is totally normal, healthy behaviour? God, what kind of goon thinks that's unhealthy?!? how old are you that you get this far into an "I'm not flailing! You're flailing! YOU'RE FLAILING!!!" meltdown without stopping yourself and stepping away from a keyboard for a minute, about a comic book superhero movie of all things. do you have a family BravestOfTheLamps posted:When asked why a character killing people in order to make money doesn't count as characterization, "it's just an action movie so it's not important" is not an actual answer. The thing about action movies is that they foreground violence. Violence is the point. It's what's entertaining about them. fighting Ronan isn't an extension of Quill's maturing. It's a thing that happens, but Ronan is explicitly and repeatedly shown to be a petulant child much like Quill trying to throw his weight around with hazardous materials he doesn't understand or control. He doesn't represent a more mature threat he's just a rumble in the sandbox with a bully, and Quill is onboard with stopping him (if not necessarily a straight-up fight with the bigger kid) the instant Gamora suggests it; it's what he does. The point of Quill growing up is that he starts making efforts to accommodate other people in the Last Starfighter fantasy he is trapped in instead of just treating everyone like NPCs and discarding them as soon as they stop offering him instant gratification. He's still stuck in the world of his childhood fantasies, but he's able to let other people take the wheel or even, god forbid, be unpleasant to him, without an immediate reward. Quill's character arc in the movie has little to do with the nominal antagonist, except by contrasting what Quill would look like if he stayed as he was at the beginning; it's more like a lighter family-friendly version of the central tension of Westworld. This is sort of forgotten by the second movie, but the second movie is pretty lazy generally and I guess the Marvel franchise formula doesn't allow for a movie about a space pirate who retires peacefully to his space trailer with his space ninja wife and raccoon space son A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Aug 30, 2017 |
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Aug 30, 2017 16:13
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Guy A. Person posted:Loudly talking about the users you've ignored instead of just ignoring them and moving on with your lives is a bad look IMO That's fair. You right.
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Aug 30, 2017 16:15
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BotL is by far and away the most garbage SMG imitator out there. Engaging him is a waste of time.
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Aug 30, 2017 17:20
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Franchescanado posted:He's the only Goon I've ignored and yes you can do it on mobile. I couldn't find an option to ignore on my iPhone, but it was there on Android. Weird.
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Aug 30, 2017 19:05
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Shame about the ignore. I was hoping to hear more about how dysfunctional it is to have a one-night stand.
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Aug 30, 2017 23:46
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:The point of Quill growing up is that he starts making efforts to accommodate other people in the Last Starfighter fantasy he is trapped in instead of just treating everyone like NPCs and discarding them as soon as they stop offering him instant gratification. He's still stuck in the world of his childhood fantasies, but he's able to let other people take the wheel or even, god forbid, be unpleasant to him, without an immediate reward. Yeah, the basic problem is that there's no moment of reversal or epiphany about how stupid the whole fantasy life thing is, especially because the movie's universe actually ends up reflecting that fantasy life. Thus you end up with the bizarrely non-satirical story of a manchild living out a fantasy life of a space adventurer being rewarded and validated. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Aug 31, 2017 |
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Aug 31, 2017 09:01
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Yeah, the basic problem is that there's no moment of reversal or epiphany about how stupid the whole fantasy life thing is, especially because the movie's universe actually ends up reflecting that fantasy life. Thus you end up with the bizarrely non-satirical story of a manchild living out a fantasy life of a space adventurer being rewarded and validated. escapist fantasy, so what
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Aug 31, 2017 10:09
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starkebn posted:escapist fantasy, so what That's not really a defence when the criticism is that it's noxious escapism.
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Aug 31, 2017 10:19
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I dunno if his space fantasy is so much escapism as a coping mechanism for a boy thrust into a huge, weird, dangerous galaxy where alien empires, magical superweapons, and malevolent demi-gods are a fact of life.
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Aug 31, 2017 10:20
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:That's not really a defence when the criticism is that it's noxious escapism. I don't believe every film has to have a good moral message, so what
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Aug 31, 2017 10:42
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Inescapable Duck posted:I dunno if his space fantasy is so much escapism as a coping mechanism for a boy thrust into a huge, weird, dangerous galaxy where alien empires, magical superweapons, and malevolent demi-gods are a fact of life. Escapism is by definition a coping mechanism. starkebn posted:I don't believe every film has to have a good moral message, so what Well, as you say, that's just your personal belief.
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Aug 31, 2017 10:55
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People need to cope with the lovely parts of life. It's not weird at all to want and need escapism. It's human. gently caress sakes god loving drat
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Aug 31, 2017 11:02
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I mean, 'escapism' implies he's not in touch with reality or perceiving the world inaccurately, when Star-Lord pretty much knows how to look at the world and his main issue is accepting an ensemble cast rather than being a loner. I think he was compared to Ronan, who as a religious fanatic has his own self-centred, myopic view of the world where he's the hero destroying evil, and he is foiled when he is distracted by something that confuses him because it doesn't fit into his worldview (his enemy suddenly breaking into a dance). Star-Lord survives, even thrives, because he knows exactly what kind of universe he's in, but that knowledge also makes him come off as crazy. Like a lesser Deadpool.
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Aug 31, 2017 11:17
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CelticPredator posted:People need to cope with the lovely parts of life. It's not weird at all to want and need escapism. It's human. You're making a passionate plea in the defence of a fictional thirty-something playing out a fantasy life modelled after Han Solo, because that's such a human thing to do. Inescapable Duck posted:I mean, 'escapism' implies he's not in touch with reality or perceiving the world inaccurately, when Star-Lord pretty much knows how to look at the world and his main issue is accepting an ensemble cast rather than being a loner. I think he was compared to Ronan, who as a religious fanatic has his own self-centred, myopic view of the world where he's the hero destroying evil, and he is foiled when he is distracted by something that confuses him because it doesn't fit into his worldview (his enemy suddenly breaking into a dance). Star-Lord survives, even thrives, because he knows exactly what kind of universe he's in, but that knowledge also makes him come off as crazy. Like a lesser Deadpool. This just means that Star-Lord is aware that he's living out a fantasy. In the second movie he complains about how his romance arc with Gamora isn't playing out like he wants to. A Wizard of Goatse's comparison to vidoe games is pretty on-point: Peter Quill almost acts like someone in a very immersive video game. This is why he's validated despite being such a goof: he's doing the equivalent of picking only the sarcastic/funny responses in a Bioware RPG/a Telltale game, but the story can only end with his triumph and thus it doesn't impact the plot.
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Aug 31, 2017 11:56
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CelticPredator posted:People need to cope with the lovely parts of life. It's not weird at all to want and need escapism. It's human. Not all catharsis has to be escapism, and not all escapism has to pander to our basest instincts and beliefs.
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Aug 31, 2017 18:54
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To put things even more simply: why, when you can imagine doing literally anything, do you imagine killing people for money? Like, that's the best you can come up with?
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Aug 31, 2017 19:18
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At this point I don't even know what movie we're talking about.
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Aug 31, 2017 19:21
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Name one thing cooler than killing people for money.
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Aug 31, 2017 19:34
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Yaws posted:Name one thing cooler than killing people for money. Killing money for people. - Zizek
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Aug 31, 2017 19:41
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Phylodox posted:At this point I don't even know what movie we're talking about. The Guardians' job is to kill things. They're paid to kill things, or just do it pro bono for galactic security. It's how their heroism is expressed. People do their best to conceal this fact by talking about how heart-warming the movies are.
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Aug 31, 2017 19:42
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Yeah, the basic problem is that there's no moment of reversal or epiphany about how stupid the whole fantasy life thing is, especially because the movie's universe actually ends up reflecting that fantasy life. Thus you end up with the bizarrely non-satirical story of a manchild living out a fantasy life of a space adventurer being rewarded and validated. it's not really attempting to reject it, so much as it's a "self-aware" rehash of the previous generation's action movies that points up how silly they are while going through the exact same strokes. It's a Marvel comic book space opera, it's not going to condemn living in a fantasy world because the whole reason it exists is to cater to an audience for whom that is a lifetime aspiration. It is opposed, specifically, to being a dick about it, and to a lesser extent being uncool, unselfaware, and unironic, which are the things that make living in a childish fantasy world acceptable to adults. There's plenty of character development and moral instruction in the movie, it just comes from a place where Peter Pan's problem wasn't hiding out in Neverland forever, it's that he treated the Lost Boys thoughtlessly. Inescapable Duck posted:I mean, 'escapism' implies he's not in touch with reality or perceiving the world inaccurately, when Star-Lord pretty much knows how to look at the world and his main issue is accepting an ensemble cast rather than being a loner. I think he was compared to Ronan, who as a religious fanatic has his own self-centred, myopic view of the world where he's the hero destroying evil, and he is foiled when he is distracted by something that confuses him because it doesn't fit into his worldview (his enemy suddenly breaking into a dance). Star-Lord survives, even thrives, because he knows exactly what kind of universe he's in, but that knowledge also makes him come off as crazy. Like a lesser Deadpool. It's not accidental that the real, mundane Earth with its real problems and real people who aren't freaking space pirates is still there and Quill has had no desire to return to it since the death of his mother, when he can remain in his campy day-glo mishmash of space opera and consequence-free violence. People in touch with reality don't have problems like "accepting an ensemble cast" and don't solve their issues through an encyclopedic understanding of movie tropes. SuperMechagodzilla posted:To put things even more simply: why, when you can imagine doing literally anything, do you imagine killing people for money? Like, that's the best you can come up with? this is what really creeped me the holy hell out about Inception. there's some incredibly empty people in Hollywood A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Aug 31, 2017 |
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Aug 31, 2017 21:12
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Killing and/or loving people is like...what being human is all about.
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Sep 1, 2017 10:31
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Murder is cool and good.
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Sep 1, 2017 10:53
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There's nothing wrong with a character killing people in itself. But what we have is a situation where people react more strongly to space-rats being kicked than this: Fans just stare blankly when asked what this says about Star-Lord. Also, "You think! You can threaten! My Walkman!":  
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Sep 1, 2017 14:46
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Also, "You think! You can threaten! My Walkman!": Friendly reminder that Ego killed his beloved mother by giving her inoperable cancer, but yeah, it's about "my Walkman." Your posting transcends being willfully dense, to the point where it reads like diagnostic criteria from the DSM at this point lol.
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Sep 1, 2017 18:55
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sean10mm posted:Friendly reminder that Ego killed his beloved mother by giving her inoperable cancer, but yeah, it's about "my Walkman." Well he says as much: "You shouldn't have killed my mom and squished my Walkman." And why are you offended by me seemingly belittling the murder of a fictional character? I wasn't even really judging GotG 2 with that, just pointing out the similarities between it and another movie. How paranoid are you? e: "Friendly reminder that this fictional character gave another fictional character sclerolis". BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Sep 1, 2017 |
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Sep 1, 2017 19:13
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Well he says as much: "You shouldn't have killed my mom and squished my Walkman." "You not only killed my mother, but then destroyed the only thing I have of her, attempting to complete your physical murder by destroying my emotional bonds." Seems like a pretty legitimate motivation. Also, please don't compare Peter Quill to the genocidal megalomaniacal rapist Kal-El. It's offensive.
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Sep 1, 2017 19:29
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LeJackal posted:"You not only killed my mother, but then destroyed the only thing I have of her, attempting to complete your physical murder by destroying my emotional bonds." That's just over-explaining a joke. Quill equating his mother's murder with the loss of a Walkman is a good joke. For some reasons fans want to treat it seriously. LeJackal posted:Also, please don't compare Peter Quill to the genocidal megalomaniacal rapist Kal-El. It's offensive. lol
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Sep 1, 2017 20:15
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