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me, screaming at a cloud "homologation"
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Sep 1, 2017 03:47
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harperdc posted:The only time the works/customer teams co-mingling worked recently was Group C, when Porsche produced loads of 956/962s and customers could pick them up easily (think GT3s now). There were other factories as well but between crashes and failures, the mosquito fleet of private Porsches would still be competitive. (A private DPi in this manner is what IMSA is missing now, that or better balance with the P2 spec cars). The LMP2 cars are balanced pretty well with the DPis, excluding WTR of course. JDC-Miller Motorsports especially has looked very strong in the late stages of this season.
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Sep 1, 2017 03:50
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an oddly awful oud posted:The LMP2 cars are balanced pretty well with the DPis, excluding WTR of course. JDC-Miller Motorsports especially has looked very strong in the late stages of this season. Right. I think in recent races they've reined the Cadillacs back in, but WTR is a good outfit and both drivers are top-shelf for the series, so cars being equal you'd still expect some success. Honestly I think the balance now is right about where it should be. Next year IMSA is going to absolutely be the sports car series to watch, if it isn't already the best.
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Sep 1, 2017 11:52
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The candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long. I'd rather we deal with the top end boom/bust cycle since it does produce some amazing cars and races. The world is filled with what is little more than spec, BoP'd to hell and back series. Its nice to occasionally get something that isn't.
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Sep 1, 2017 15:33
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Proud Christian Mom posted:The candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long. I'd rather we deal with the top end boom/bust cycle since it does produce some amazing cars and races. The world is filled with what is little more than spec, BoP'd to hell and back series. Its nice to occasionally get something that isn't. I pretty much agree. Sportscars explode every ten years or so and the privateer-only Le Mans races are usually fun without all the media attention.
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Sep 1, 2017 15:35
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So from where I'm sitting this would just about sum it up: VAG hosed up, and it looks like we're losing WEC as a result. Have I mentioned "gently caress VAG" recently? Dieselgate singlehandedly killed like a billion dollars worth of investment from VAG in the Audi program and given the timing of Porsche's termination vs the timing of an announcement that Porsche's most profitable cars (SUVs, because rich people have no taste) are also getting nailed probably killed Porsche's interest too. LMP1 was the FIA's answer to the ACO asking "but c'mon, F1 is stealing all our thunder, give us something!". It had large, glaring holes but it filled the role of "top tier motorsport" in a way that nothing can match. DPi is not the answer to the probable death of LMP1 as it is now - you either kill the idea of "the top tier of motorsports going balls to the wall and pushing the boundaries" or you kill the idea of "a class of motorsports designed to attract manufacturers and have competitive racing". Realistically the ACO is prolly gonna push a raft of cost-cutting and changes designed to lower the barrier to entry to try to get Peugeot back in while keeping Toyota on the hook. I dunno how they do that with the LMP2s being as good as they are now. WEC dying a horrible death isn't necessarily a bad thing because outside of Le Mans most of the races were garbage anyway (none of the good US races? 6 hours of Spa? 6 hours of the Nurburgring? Bahrain, Shanghai and Mexico? WTF kind of Endurance is this FIA?). harperdc posted:The only time the works/customer teams co-mingling worked recently was Group C, when Porsche produced loads of 956/962s and customers could pick them up easily (think GT3s now). There were other factories as well but between crashes and failures, the mosquito fleet of private Porsches would still be competitive. (A private DPi in this manner is what IMSA is missing now, that or better balance with the P2 spec cars). F1 is waaaaaay more complicated than that. Example: Minardi was such a trainwreck that once the engine deal expired/once Toro Rosso got their own engine deal/once Red Bull learned the FIA weren't going to let them effectively run 4 cars they had to basically start from scratch. The result is that somewhere in italy is a mega-million dollar facility that has almost nothing to do with old-Minardi. Likewise, Red Bull were built from the wreckage of Jaguar. Again, a whole bunch of money went into building a new facility in Milton Keynes which is their new HQ and again you can't really say that Red Bull and Jaguar/Stewart have a lot in common. A lot of money got wasted in the Jaguar/Stewart wasted years. Sauber is a fun trip down motorsports history. F1 lurches wildly through rule changes and while success comes down to personnel, largely, those personnel don't tend to stick at one team over multiple periods of "success".
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Sep 1, 2017 15:46
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Dieselgate also cost WRC the VW factory squad but that actually significantly improved WRC, wtih Ogier having to join the semi-works M-Sport team.
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Sep 1, 2017 15:51
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I wonder if Toyota had won LeMans would they also packed it in at the same time as Porsche? Also please don't laugh at the idea of Toyota winning at LeMans
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Sep 1, 2017 16:01
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loving germans
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Sep 1, 2017 16:02
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lol remember when Porsche was selling so many Cayennes that they thought they could buy VW and then the economy collapsed and VW bought them instead? I member
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Sep 1, 2017 16:18
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VikingSkull posted:lol remember when Porsche was selling so many Cayennes that they thought they could buy VW and then the economy collapsed and VW bought them instead? I remember 
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Sep 1, 2017 16:23
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Schlesische posted:F1 is waaaaaay more complicated than that. This is kind of accurate, at least with the two examples you give, but there are a lot of employees of the various Brackley and Enstone teams who have been there for quite some time.
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Sep 1, 2017 16:27
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LMP1 failed because they are spending $200m+ in marketing dollars for a thing that doesnt reach $200m+ worth of eyes and buyers. They rationalized it to themselves by saying "we're developing technology!" (a lie), and "its part of Brand Image" (lol), and "it reaches car enthusiast buyers!" (enthusiast buyers aren't going to buy a Toyota just because they paid some people to make a racecar). The thing was a dumb house of cards from the day they announced it for those reasons. Thats really the long and short of it. I know cost controls aren't fun for you fans who want to see XTREME CUTTING EDGE TECHNOLOGY (even though P1 was in no way open technologically in the first place) but there arent enough of you, and cost controls are the only thing that keeps series alive. If you want to see technology based meritocracy and limitless innovation with an extreme competitive environment, walk down the washing machine aisle at best buy. Cygni fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Sep 1, 2017 |
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Sep 1, 2017 17:36
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all motorsports is wasted money hth
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Sep 1, 2017 18:35
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Proud Christian Mom posted:all motorsports is wasted money hth Didn't know the entire FCA Corporation had a forums account.
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Sep 1, 2017 20:21
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Cygni posted:LMP1 failed because they are spending $200m+ in marketing dollars for a thing that doesnt reach $200m+ worth of eyes and buyers. They rationalized it to themselves by saying "we're developing technology!" (a lie), and "its part of Brand Image" (lol), and "it reaches car enthusiast buyers!" (enthusiast buyers aren't going to buy a Toyota just because they paid some people to make a racecar). The thing was a dumb house of cards from the day they announced it for those reasons. the answer, as always, is homologation
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Sep 1, 2017 20:56
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WEC changes for 2018/19, they're going to make a 2 year season starting in March as usual and ending at Le Mans 2019, which means the next season will have 2 Le Mans. Most notably though, COTA is out and the Sebring 12h will be both WEC and IMSA together (GIANT GRID). LMP1 will be BOP'd so the hybrids and non-hybrids can race each other, no more LMP1 and LMP1-H. Seems like a solid change though I don't see Toyota sticking around with a hybrid to potentially lose races to privateers.
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Sep 1, 2017 23:00
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Sebring isnt a combined race... its TWIN 12 hours, lmaoquote:* The 12 Hours of Sebring will be a combined event with the IMSA WeatherTech Championship but two separate races will be held. From 10.00am to 10.00pm on Saturday, the IMSA WeatherTech race, and from 12 midnight to 12 noon Sunday the FIA WEC. This is a bad idea.
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Sep 1, 2017 23:04
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Cygni posted:Sebring isnt a combined race... its TWIN 12 hours, lmao Oh right, I briefly forgot this was the loving ACO.
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Sep 1, 2017 23:09
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No that's a fantastic idea.
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Sep 1, 2017 23:10
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WEC 2018: 
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Sep 1, 2017 23:11
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gret posted:No that's a fantastic idea. I will accept it if the IMSA race is the 12 hours of Sebring and the WEC race is something else. But you know they are gonna say they are BOTH the 12 hours of Sebring, piss off the IMSA teams and manufacturers, and try to cram both winners in the traditional winners space above the garages.
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Sep 1, 2017 23:21
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Cygni posted:Sebring isnt a combined race... its TWIN 12 hours, lmao This is both the worst thing and the best thing.
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Sep 1, 2017 23:27
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Holy poo poo that's basically the 26 hours of Sebring lol, spectators are gonna die from drinking so much
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Sep 1, 2017 23:30
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Racer is making it seem like the IMSA 12 hour will be the actual 12 hour still, and the WEC will be something else. Also I didn't even process that the WEC race is going to START at midnight, lol I wonder if IMSA is getting anything out of this deal. Like DPis being allowed at lemans?
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Sep 1, 2017 23:34
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Cygni posted:Racer is making it seem like the IMSA 12 hour will be the actual 12 hour still, and the WEC will be something else. Also I didn't even process that the WEC race is going to START at midnight, lol You have an underrated sense of humor, Cygni.
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Sep 1, 2017 23:39
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not sure if ur bein mean to me so ill just take it as a compliment!!
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Sep 1, 2017 23:53
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Cygni posted:not sure if ur bein mean to me so ill just take it as a compliment!! Nah I just think it's funny to imagine the ACO developing the common sense to invite DPis to Le Mans.
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Sep 2, 2017 00:01
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Cygni posted:Sebring isnt a combined race... its TWIN 12 hours, lmao lmfao this is so dumb but also so awesome, i'm all for it
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Sep 2, 2017 00:24
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wicka posted:Nah I just think it's funny to imagine the ACO developing common sense. Fixed that for you. Cygni posted:Sebring isnt a combined race... its TWIN 12 hours, lmao The absolute best worst idea ever. Cygni posted:LMP1 failed because they are spending $200m+ in marketing dollars for a thing that doesnt reach $200m+ worth of eyes and buyers.... ...and "its part of Brand Image" (lol), and "it reaches car enthusiast buyers!" (enthusiast buyers aren't going to buy a Toyota just because they paid some people to make a racecar). The thing was a dumb house of cards from the day they announced it for those reasons. Basically, you can spend $200million on more ad time that people have already switched off from, $200million on making your new Camry even better in ways most people will never appreciate or you can try to halo-car your way out of being "the boring business suit car company". People do genuinely still buy cars because "they make a race car I like watching", and a lot of people follow race cars that win. I don't think it works for Toyota because they don't "synergise" (at all), but I think it helped make the R8 a thing which help "sexy up" Audi's image (a little) and gave them a slight bit more differentiation from sister brand Volkswagen. Granted, it's a terrible business model that falls apart when you start investing extreme levels of money in Racing programs as you have to nowadays, but if done right it can really help with perception and image. Cygni posted:...They rationalized it to themselves by saying "we're developing technology!" (a lie) When you look at the Hybrid technologies that were being pursued when LMP1-H started they had a legit argument that they were pushing high-performance Hybrid technology in new and unique ways. Cygni posted:I know cost controls aren't fun for you fans who want to see XTREME CUTTING EDGE TECHNOLOGY (even though P1 was in no way open technologically in the first place) but there arent enough of you, and cost controls are the only thing that keeps series alive. If you want to see technology based meritocracy and limitless innovation with an extreme competitive environment, walk down the washing machine aisle at best buy. Firstly, if you want tight competitive racing with a variety of body shapes and tight cost controls, Touring Cars exist. Secondly, gently caress you for the washing machines and best buy comment. Thirdly, if it's assumed that the ACO is genuinely pushing to make Endurance racing an inhabitant of that pedestal F1 has dominated for the better part of two decades, DPi at Le Mans is not any form of response to LMP1's demise. They're not going to come within reasonable touch of the lap times set by the LMP1-Hs from 2016 and outside of "okay, we're opening up restrictions on the engines, go wild" (which will defeat the entire purpose of DPi) they're like a decade and a half away from being in that realm of lap-time. They produce interesting racing and attractive cars, but they're not exciting in anything like the way the TS-016 or 919 were. The collapse of LMP1 (really just Porsche pulling out) is probably the biggest nail in ACO's push to get it's prestige back up to a point where the "average" motorsports fan will care; F1 is a long way ahead now and outside of Liberty loving everything up (which they don't seem to be) it's hard to see that changing anytime soon. So hey, maybe it's time for the ACO to lower the eyes and accept that. In that scenario DPi at Le Mans, here we come.
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Sep 2, 2017 02:17
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gently caress it, two classes at le mans, formula libre, and production GT
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Sep 2, 2017 02:21
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bring back the days in sportscars where people would run badly modified old Indycars with farings and poo poo
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Sep 2, 2017 02:21
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Allow a stock car again
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Sep 2, 2017 02:59
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"WEC boss Gerard Neveu said: "The 2018/19 season will be a season of transition" Ah, there it is 
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Sep 2, 2017 03:14
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26 hours of being awake in Florida sounds like hell
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Sep 2, 2017 03:21
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Decent coke should make it easy.
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Sep 2, 2017 03:23
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I still think VAG's heavy investment in WEC was Ferdinand Piëch's influence. That kind of drat-it-all spending on cutting edge technology is exactly the kind of thing you'd expect from a guy who said "I'm going to make my middle-market car company build a luxury sedan that can keep the interior 72 degrees while doing 186 mph on a 122-degree day, and I don't give a gently caress what it costs, oh also I'm going to build a new factory for it with hardwood floors" and then actually did it, especially being a former engineer who cut his teeth on absolutely dominant, legendary race cars like the Quattro and 917. It really made very little sense from just about any standpoint, but by god was it a great era of racing Also, in IMSA news, Stevenson Motorsports is shutting down at the end of the season, which is a huge loss. They've been competitive in pretty much every class they've raced in and already won once with the R8 LMS in GTD and twice with the Camaro GT4 in CTSC this year. And they were always some the friendliest guys in the paddock in my experience. It's the first really lovely development about the 2018 season.
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Sep 2, 2017 03:33
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Feels Villeneuve posted:gently caress it, two classes at le mans, formula libre, and production GT
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Sep 2, 2017 03:37
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Proud Christian Mom posted:
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Sep 2, 2017 03:38
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an oddly awful oud posted:I still think VAG's heavy investment in WEC was Ferdinand Piëch's influence. That kind of drat-it-all spending on cutting edge technology is exactly the kind of thing you'd expect from a guy who said "I'm going to make my middle-market car company build a luxury sedan that can keep the interior 72 degrees while doing 186 mph on a 122-degree day, and I don't give a gently caress what it costs, oh also I'm going to build a new factory for it with hardwood floors" and then actually did it, especially being a former engineer who cut his teeth on absolutely dominant, legendary race cars like the Quattro and 917. It really made very little sense from just about any standpoint, but by god was it a great era of racing It was, but the Phaeton was a swansong "gently caress it lets push all the boundaries and make the best car I can possibly think of" that eventually became the Veyron. Piech has been getting pushed out of VAG for some time now, and I don't honestly think both Porsche and Audi would've dropped LMP1 if they hadn't tried to cheat on emissions reports. Schlesische fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Sep 2, 2017 |
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Sep 2, 2017 04:21
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