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darthbob88 posted:Not really, because they're extremely conservative and their response would be "Good riddance to the commie leeches". Instead, I'd like to see how they explain declining manufacturing wages. Dey terk ur jerbs
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Aug 31, 2017 21:51
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So, I'm a guy who's gone to both trade school, and college, and plans on going back to college next year. AMA. I must say, that while Mike Rowe and his types are generally bad people, encouraging people to check out trade school is really not a terrible idea. Some people just aren't cut out for college, but that doesn't mean they don't deserve a livable wage. And honestly, schools do focus way too much on college and college prep. I graduated in 2010, so I can't speak much for the current scene, but when I was in high school, pretty much everything was "You gotta study up for the SATs so you can get good scores to get into a good college. Here's some college information! COLLEGE!" Pretty much trying to cement the idea that if you didn't go to college, you couldn't achieve anything. Pretty much no mention of any kind of alternative. Either go to college or enjoy flipping burgers forever. So I went to a college for about 2 years, got bored, and didn't go back. Eventually I figured out that I liked working with my hands more, and enrolled into a local trade college. I wan in the HVAC/R program. Said school works very closely with a lot of local employers, and, after entering a skills competition, met the guy who would be my boss. Ended up winning first prize there without even knowing it. After graduating I applied at the company he was the GM at, and got hired. Got a job making 60K with paid holidays, 401K, sick leave, paid time off, etc. And with the school I went to, I also got 25 college credits after graduating, which allowed me to finish up at college and get an A.S. in Industrial management. And I'm aware that my story is a pretty rare case, but pretty much everyone who went to this school ended up in a much better place then they had been in before starting. I can't speak for other schools, but the Orange County Tech schools make it incredibly easy to get in, and provide a shitton of financial aid. I didn't really use the aid, but pretty much everyone else in my class did. Between grants and other aid most people ended up getting paid to go there. And the class wasn't even that expensive. About $4,000 + another $150 or so for books. And on top of that, you also got the aforementioned 25 credits to Valencia. Of course, the place isn't perfect. The scheduling is rather inflexible, and if you want to take night classes (4 hour classes 3x a night) the course takes twice as long, so scheduling around a work schedule can be difficult. However, I'm not sure that I'd say working in a trade is sustainable for a life time. It does take a lot out of you. There's a pretty huge tax on your body, and depending on what field you get into, your work to life ration can get absolutely hosed. (I've spent the last 3 or so weeks working 70+hrs) But, at least they can be used as a springboard to get into something else. At least it can give someone a chance to get some money put away for something else. Panfilo posted:I think another part of it was when a large percentage of Americans started going to college, blue collar work was seen as a 'consequence' to not applying yourself academically. Now there is somewhat of a backlash against this, as young people are buried in student loan debt and have a difficult time finding a job that pays enough to justify the time and money spent in school. This is a very large factor in most people perception of trade school and even the trades themselves. There's way too many people who assume that if you're working in a trade you must be a big dumb dummy who's dumb, when the reality is, there's a lot of people who are very smart who work in these trades. I've known more than a few people who had college degrees, and either switched to a trade, or just went into one because they couldn't find work. It's just a different form of work, and killing the perception that trade-work is low class would really help a lot. Mike Rowe and his ilk don't care about Unions either. They're they kind who believe that a job can be paid in the satisfaction of a job well done and other bullshit. For them, it's all about driving wages down.
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Sep 1, 2017 01:09
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Regarding trades and other fields dominated by white men, I think a lot of people have it backwards. Those fields are high paying because they have a lot of white men in them. Nursing was a traditionally female job but once men started becoming nurses, the pay of nurses went up. Computer Science was a traditionally female job but once white men started geeking out with computers the payscale went through the room. On the other hand, fields like recreation and design saw their pay plummet when women took them over. There are some jobs that have a clear utility so they get compensated in keeping with their true market values. Your doctor could be a dark skinned Pakistani Muslim woman and she'll still be compensated quite well. But most jobs don't have as clear a role as that. Everybody values their health, so the market basically works there. What do we value as a society? Well, we value cars so white men made cars. They were paid well to do it. We value finance, "the business of America is business" so white men are in finance and business. Integrating the workforce won't achieve anything. If I were to wave my magic wand and make there be lots of women and PoCs in tech, the wages for tech workers would crash through the floor. Because we don't value jobs done by woman and PoCs.
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Sep 1, 2017 01:26
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I've seen several people saying donating to Harvey victims via the Red Cross is bad. Is there any reason for this?
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Sep 1, 2017 03:15
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Cowslips Warren posted:I've seen several people saying donating to Harvey victims via the Red Cross is bad. Is there any reason for this? The Red Cross is often lambasted for not doing a great job of managing funds; taking forever to get money to the people who need it, giving super high salaries to their executives, etc. Not sure how true any of it is; but that's the specifics I've seen.
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Sep 1, 2017 03:29
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Cowslips Warren posted:I've seen several people saying donating to Harvey victims via the Red Cross is bad. Is there any reason for this? They got a bunch of deservedly bad press for wasting a shitload of money that was supposed to go to Haiti after the earthquake there. But they did a lot of great work during/after Katrina so as far as I know their domestic operations for hurricane disaster relief are on the level.
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Sep 1, 2017 04:20
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To add to the topic of working working with your hands, I had the concept presented in regards to a writer turned motorcycle mechanic. As a writer the guy would write articles for a magazine, but was he doing a good job? All measure of his writing is subjective based on the readers and editors. Whether something was good or bad can change with the mood of the person reviewing it. As a mechanic, he repairs bikes. If he does a good job then it works and doesn't break down again. One is very clear, and the other is fuzzy.
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Sep 1, 2017 04:52
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ExplodingSims posted:I must say, that while Mike Rowe and his types are generally bad people, encouraging people to check out trade school is really not a terrible idea. Some people just aren't cut out for college, but that doesn't mean they don't deserve a livable wage. And honestly, schools do focus way too much on college and college prep. I graduated in 2010, so I can't speak much for the current scene, but when I was in high school, pretty much everything was "You gotta study up for the SATs so you can get good scores to get into a good college. Here's some college information! COLLEGE!" Pretty much trying to cement the idea that if you didn't go to college, you couldn't achieve anything. Pretty much no mention of any kind of alternative. Either go to college or enjoy flipping burgers forever. An issue is that schools and guidance counselors are still evaluated based on how many of their kids go to college. Also we have way too few guidance counselors.
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Sep 1, 2017 13:07
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Cowslips Warren posted:I've seen several people saying donating to Harvey victims via the Red Cross is bad. Is there any reason for this? http://www.metro.us/news/the-big-stories/red-cross-should-you-donate-history-corruption http://www.slate.com/articles/business/metropolis/2017/08/don_t_give_money_to_the_red_cross_we_need_a_new_way.html http://gawker.com/dont-donate-to-the-red-cross-1652192522 For example they claimed to have built 100s or 1000s of houses in Haiti after the earthquake. They only built something like 6.
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Sep 1, 2017 13:13
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darthbob88 posted:Not really, because they're extremely conservative and their response would be "Good riddance to the commie leeches". Instead, I'd like to see how they explain declining manufacturing wages. In an argument with a strong right-winger in a discord channel I'm in, she said that these jobs don't require much expertise and training and therefore they don't deserve higher wages, because they're not particularly skilled, and it would be wrong to pay someone more than their labor is worth. She's also against raising the minimum wage partially for that same reason, though also because she believes prices will skyrocket if minimum wage is increased.
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Sep 1, 2017 18:06
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So they believe in the labor theory of value?
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Sep 1, 2017 18:09
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Crazycryodude posted:
Okay this is a genuine question because the more I think about it the more I'm confused. What's wrong with the things she's saying? I'll explain my thought process so maybe someone can tell me where I'm misunderstanding. When she says that "they're voting on their values, not economics, and we'll never be able to reach them," that makes sense to me. I'm interpreting the phrase "their values" as standard Republican/conservative values, in other words, "Gays shouldn't be allowed to get married" or "abortion should be illegal," things like that. On that, she's absolutely correct. The Democrats are never going to reach those voters, and should give up on them. A pro-life anti-gay person isn't going to vote for a Democrat unless their personal opinions and worldview change, but that isn't really something the Democrats, as a political party, can do. So the only way we're left with the Democrats being able to appeal to those voters is to do things like, well, run anti-abortion candidates, which apparently they're willing and eager to do this next election...but everyone on the left says (and I agree) that this is a horrible idea and the Dems should not run these types of candidates. Guavanaut posted:So they believe in the labor theory of value? Pretty much, yeah. She's well known in my circle of friends for having possibly the worst possible takes on anything (for example, she firmly believes America got involved in Vietnam because France is wimpy and bad at war and begged us to help them, and the "fighting communism" story was a lie to make it popular to the public). So yeah, if the answer isn't "illegals are taking American jobs and driving wages down" then they'll probably say that it's unskilled labor and manufacturing jobs shouldn't be making high wages anyway.
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Sep 1, 2017 18:42
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Twelve by Pies posted:When she says that "they're voting on their values, not economics, and we'll never be able to reach them," that makes sense to me. I'm interpreting the phrase "their values" as standard Republican/conservative values, in other words, "Gays shouldn't be allowed to get married" or "abortion should be illegal," things like that. These aren't values, they're policies that are commonly supported by appeals to their values. Abortion being illegal is a policy. Protecting the helpless is a value. This is absolutely evident in the way they frame their position, they're not anti-choice, they're pro-life. For any issue, if you take an anti position, you're framing yourself as anti value. This only works when the value is commonly understood to be negative. Anti-Life doesn't work. Anti-Racism is okay. If you want to appeal to a value though, you have to reframe the issue so that your values are emphasized. Gay marriage is about freedom. And even though the thought is revolting to some people, we're talking about adults who want to be in a relationship. Freedom is sometimes about letting people do things that you don't personally approve of.
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Sep 1, 2017 19:18
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:Anti-Life doesn't work.
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Sep 1, 2017 19:35
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Twelve by Pies posted:Okay this is a genuine question because the more I think about it the more I'm confused. What's wrong with the things she's saying? Saying you can't reach anyone with free college is really loving dumb. There's a shitload of voters that would love free college for their kids, and you'd also see a small (but significant) surge of youth voters. She's basically giving the centrist argument for "why bother actually helping the poor?"
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Sep 1, 2017 19:38
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Twelve by Pies posted:In an argument with a strong right-winger in a discord channel I'm in, she said that these jobs don't require much expertise and training and therefore they don't deserve higher wages, because they're not particularly skilled, and it would be wrong to pay someone more than their labor is worth. She's also against raising the minimum wage partially for that same reason, though also because she believes prices will skyrocket if minimum wage is increased. Ask her why she's ok with the government subsidising private industry. Basically, if working a full-time job (or an equivalent combination of part time jobs) doesn't pay enough to live on, then the taxpayer has to fill that gap with welfare of various kinds.
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Sep 1, 2017 20:00
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Helen Highwater posted:Ask her why she's ok with the government subsidising private industry. Basically, if working a full-time job (or an equivalent combination of part time jobs) doesn't pay enough to live on, then the taxpayer has to fill that gap with welfare of various kinds. Not to mention the only people  about inflation tend to be people with tons of assets (the rich). If you have lots of debt then inflation works to your advantage.
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Sep 1, 2017 20:04
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Guavanaut posted:Mainländer and Cioran had some interesting ideas about that. Darkseid did as well.
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Sep 1, 2017 23:18
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https://twitter.com/afainatl/status...s-in-houston%2F Hurricane? I'll bring my gun and shoot
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Sep 2, 2017 01:42
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It's football season again, and one of my least favorite things is already up and running: "If you sit or kneel during the anthem you shouldn't get to play." No one makes you stand while they sing the national anthem at your job buddy.
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Sep 2, 2017 02:09
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmpqnxpYUqA "Punch Drunk Left"
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Sep 2, 2017 05:49
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Mo_Steel posted:It's football season again, and one of my least favorite things is already up and running: That one always irritates the hell out of me for, well, a lot of reasons. The fact that there's nothing in the rules saying they have to do it, the fact that the same people bitching about kneeling would be raising just as much hell about "why he has to make such a scene instead of protesting peacefully" if he had come out with a huge BLM banner and megaphone, the fact that even being on the field for the anthem wasn't even a thing until like 2009.
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Sep 2, 2017 12:44
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the_steve posted:That one always irritates the hell out of me for, well, a lot of reasons. Yep, it's always just goalpost moving. "You should protest peacefully" turns into "you should shut up and do nothing" as soon as someone does protest peacefully.
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Sep 2, 2017 13:07
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I also love how they always mention that if Kaepernick wanted to effect change, he should "go volunteer at a soup kitchen, donate his money, and shut up." It's a dual purpose attack. Firstly, it ignores that Kaepernick does 2 out of the 3 already. Second, it presents this false idea that the only way to support a cause is silently and out of the mind of the public. "If you're raising awareness you're doing it wrong, only captains of industry who can fix problems wholesale should be involved." Ugh.
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Sep 2, 2017 16:19
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Has it been mentioned that he was already doing it for a bit and it only came to light when someone asked what he was doing? Also stupid people buying his jersey # just to burn.
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Sep 2, 2017 16:31
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Seeing some real stupid Hurricane Harvey stuff...quote:Take a minute to read this.... THIS is the American way, not the joke the government is trying to turn us in to. tl;dr: The only people helping are REAL MEN who voted for our REAL PRESIDENT with their REAL TRUCKS doing all the REAL WORK. All those women and liberals are just doing not REAL work and should just get out of the way of REAL MEN.
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Sep 2, 2017 16:57
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Twelve by Pies posted:In an argument with a strong right-winger in a discord channel I'm in, she said that these jobs don't require much expertise and training and therefore they don't deserve higher wages, because they're not particularly skilled, and it would be wrong to pay someone more than their labor is worth. She's also against raising the minimum wage partially for that same reason, though also because she believes prices will skyrocket if minimum wage is increased. I have an old HS acquaintance on Facebook who responds to minimum wage threads with the same crap. Only 4 percent work at minimum wage, most of those are young, etc. so stop complaining about it. I've responded before that it's still screwing the percent that earn below min. wage, and that labor law should be fixed, but he keeps retreating to the old 'it's only a few people' crap.
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Sep 2, 2017 17:38
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If it's only a few people then why will raising it destroy the economy and make a quarter pounder cost $20?
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Sep 2, 2017 17:40
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J.A.B.C. posted:I have an old HS acquaintance on Facebook who responds to minimum wage threads with the same crap. Only 4 percent work at minimum wage, most of those are young, etc. so stop complaining about it. I've responded before that it's still screwing the percent that earn below min. wage, and that labor law should be fixed, but he keeps retreating to the old 'it's only a few people' crap. That's always the most dishonest argument because those numbers exclude people who make a whole like 1-20 cents more then minimum wage.
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Sep 2, 2017 17:42
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I just want to shake these people and go "Look at everything wrong with America right now, and you think the answer is to make sure poor people have less money?" Like, christ, poor people do nothing but spend their money. Give them more of it and it all flows back into the economy, it literally helps everyone, even the people on top, cause I know some 1%er rear end in a top hat owns all the payday loan places and scratch off lotto companies and whatnot. If we just taxed the wealthy and literally just gave it all to the poor, the economy would do gangbusters. Even the wealthy would end up doing better in the end. It's loving madness!
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Sep 2, 2017 17:54
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Do these people want every minimum-wage employee they interact with to be a 16-year-old part timer who started working less than 6 months ago?
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Sep 2, 2017 17:57
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Zemyla posted:Do these people want every minimum-wage employee they interact with to be a 16-year-old part timer who started working less than 6 months ago? You also have to wonder if they want all the fast food places to be closed for lunch during the school year.
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Sep 2, 2017 18:07
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Goon Danton posted:You also have to wonder if they want all the fast food places to be closed for lunch during the school year. This is usually my go-to argument, as well as the "seriously do you want poor people to have less money, wtf is wrong with you". There's some serious lack of connections being made between "MINIMUM WAGE SHOULD ONLY BE TEENAGERS" and "I NEED A QUARTER POUNDER 24/7/365"
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Sep 2, 2017 18:46
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I mean, there is a possible connection in "kids should have to drop out of school to make me hamburgers," but not many people are ready to make that leap, at least not explicitly.
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Sep 2, 2017 19:07
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Zemyla posted:Do these people want every minimum-wage employee they interact with to be a 16-year-old part timer who started working less than 6 months ago?
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Sep 2, 2017 19:14
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I'm somewhat convinced that retail and cashiers can't be fully automated because they serve a vital role as sin-eaters in our society.
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Sep 2, 2017 19:22
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:I'm somewhat convinced that retail and cashiers can't be fully automated because they serve a vital role as sin-eaters in our society. That's an interesting take on it. In a consumption/shopping-based culture, the act of purchasing stuff has become a sort of ritual and a drug. I know I personally have been known to go shopping just because I was bored or wanted to distract myself, etc,. And like religion, purchasing and other forms of consumption have become a panacea for all of our ills, including distemper, untreated mental issues, and as a temporary form of entitlement.
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Sep 2, 2017 19:30
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Goon Danton posted:I mean, there is a possible connection in "kids should have to drop out of school to make me hamburgers," but not many people are ready to make that leap, at least not explicitly. http://blog.acton.org/archives/89837-bring-back-child-labor-work-is-a-gift-our-kids-can-handle.html quote:If kids were allowed to work and compulsory school attendance was abolished, the jobs of choice would be at Chick-Fil-A and WalMart. And they would be fantastic jobs too, instilling in young people a work ethic, which is the inner drive to succeed, and an awareness of attitudes that make enterprise work for all. It would give them skills and discipline that build character, and help them become part of a professional network.
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Sep 2, 2017 22:34
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WampaLord posted:I just want to shake these people and go "Look at everything wrong with America right now, and you think the answer is to make sure poor people have less money?" With some of them, the answer is yes. 'If you're not willing to work (in exactly the manner I think you should be working), you shouldn't be paid! Those jobs are for teenagers anyway. If you want a living wage, get a real job (defined by me).'
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Sep 2, 2017 22:39
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Twelve by Pies posted:http://blog.acton.org/archives/89837-bring-back-child-labor-work-is-a-gift-our-kids-can-handle.html Oh, yeah, the donor class sends up a child labor trial balloon every few years, but people don't seem to go for it for some reason. Back in the 2012 primaries, Newt Gingrich was talking about making poor children work as janitors in their own schools, just to pick a particularly ghoulish and high profile example.
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Sep 2, 2017 23:01
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