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G-III posted:I was a bit disappointed by bobby not having much to do with the end there in episode 17. I do like how pivotal Andy and Lucy ended up being.
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Sep 4, 2017 16:43
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adamcantsleep posted:('cause that's a trait he's known for, right?)
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Sep 4, 2017 16:43
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I wasn't entirely "pleased" with the finale in that I didn't get a happy ending, but man that last episode is going to stick with me in a haunting existential terror way I did not expect at all. What a season of tv. Fantastic.
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Sep 4, 2017 16:44
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Raxivace posted:Yes? Literally the first two seasons are "Dale Cooper botches a murder investigation: the television series". Yeah if you're an FBI agent and you create an alternate reality that you trap yourself in, you may in fact be a bad agent. This is why you shouldn't dabble in Tibetan mysticism.
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Sep 4, 2017 16:45
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romanowski posted:can you say that definitively? have you combed through the rest of the show to see if there are more revealing clues you might not have picked up on before? David Lynch is well known to work on instinct and what feels right; what he's presenting to you is supposed to work by feeling right. It's not supposed to work by some careful combing through clues.
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Sep 4, 2017 16:46
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I think I'm going to pretend episode 17 was the finale 18 was a disappointment
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Sep 4, 2017 16:46
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Raxivace posted:Yes? Literally the first two seasons are "Dale Cooper botches a murder investigation and gets consumed by the forces of darkness: the television series". He found the truth behind Leland and Bob. So...no?
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Sep 4, 2017 16:48
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Pedro De Heredia posted:David Lynch is well known to work on instinct and what feels right; what he's presenting to you is supposed to work by feeling right. It's not supposed to work by some careful combing through clues. i know how david lynch works
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Sep 4, 2017 16:50
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Raxivace posted:Yes? Literally the first two seasons are "Dale Cooper botches a murder investigation and gets consumed by the forces of darkness: the television series". 1. That's not an accurate description of the first two seasons. He solves the murder investigation, for starters. 2. The original doesn't matter too much. The Return has been referred to many times as an 18-hour-movie. It was made more than two decades after the first two seasons of the show, and discards many things from the original show while having a very different set of symbols and a stranger cosmology. The Cooper we are presented here is not someone defined by hubris; the main goal we are presented throughout this series is for Cooper to return to earth/consciousness and to return Evil Cooper to the dark world. That's even how the series has been described: as Cooper's odyssey to come back home. It's really a massive swerve to turn it into 'Cooper tries to 'save' Laura Palmer, who already died'. Like, honestly, did *anyone* on this forum, or any other forum, or anywhere, think that the vague idea of 'saving Laura Palmer' had anything to do with *literally* saving her and more to do with helping her move on from the Red Room or something related to her spirit? Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Sep 4, 2017 |
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Sep 4, 2017 16:51
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CJacobs posted:I feel like art needs to be conclusive to be satisfying, even through speculation. And I don't mean that as in a magician giving away his secrets. If you're interpreting a piece of art, you can see it from any angle you want, but what's important is that you can come to a conclusion about what it is and what it means. Episode 18 doesn't give us nearly enough pieces of the puzzle to do that. you have 18 hours of enough information to form your own ideas on what it all means and you might be missing the point if you are expecting anything concrete from someone who named a character judy, jow-dae and labeled her the main being of extreme negative force in this series or rather jiāo dài, the chinese meaning for "to explain" and "to make clear" by a man renown for letting the art do its talking and him never explaining anything when asked after the fact, whose work largely consists of this exact thing. Vikar Jerome fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Sep 4, 2017 |
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Sep 4, 2017 16:51
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romanowski posted:i know how david lynch works Then why did you ask that dumb question?
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Sep 4, 2017 16:51
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Vikar Jerome posted:you have 18 hours of enough information to form your own ideas on what it all means and you might be missing the point if you are expecting anything concrete from someone who named a character judy, jow-dae and labeled her a being of extreme negative force or rather jiāo dài, the chinese meaning for "to explain" and "to make clear" by a man renown for letting the art do its talking and him never explaining anything when asked after the fact, whose work largely consists of this exact thing. I'm well aware that Lynch doesn't do concrete answers in his films. The art doesn't do its talking, is my point. The art mumbles a bit under its breath and then says "good luck". Consider the scope of season 2's ending to season 3's. There is still a large amount of mystery remaining at the end of season 2, but it's a conclusion you can point to and say "I understand this" whether you're happy about how it ended or not. I think episode 17 nicely stuck that landing, and then 18 took it in an unnecessary extra direction that muddled things right at the end.
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Sep 4, 2017 16:55
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Okay, so after staying up all night obsessing over the finale & getting 5 hours of sleep, I'm about to binge all of season 3 before cancelling my Showtime subscription. Much like in the finale, I'm about to embark on my own rollercoaster of pain, or as El-P would call it, a Tasmanian Pain Coaster (which begins with some of Laura Palmer's dialogue from Fire Walk With Me). At the very beginning of episode 1, the Fireman tells Cooper to "listen to the sounds" and the clicking sound plays that's the same sound that plays when Laura gets warped into the Odessa dimension.
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Sep 4, 2017 16:55
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hanales posted:People keep talking about this evil side of coop but I thought that was just a doppleganger that was taken over by Bob, not actually a part of cooper. Is there evidence for this? I think it's reasonable to believe that it cost something to the creator of the doppleganger. Cooper's used some of his hair to create the second Dougie. When Dougie was called into the lodge, he vomited a small amount of garmonbozia while Danzig vomited heaps. In retrospect, I think Danzig used some of his essence to create the first Dougie. I doubt clones are freebies.
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Sep 4, 2017 16:58
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Pedro De Heredia posted:Then why did you ask that dumb question? because he was saying that the finale didn't provide enough pieces to the puzzle and I don't think you can definitively say that after a single viewing, especially considering how long this show is, bitch like i'm not suggesting that you have to analyze every frame and look for hidden details that reveal the TRUE ANSWER OF TWIN PEAKS but i think it's possible that there are details in the show that may (or may not??) have more meaning with context and could help illuminate aspects of the ending. or not. who knows. you idiot. you absolute loving moron romanowski fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Sep 4, 2017 |
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Sep 4, 2017 16:58
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Pedro De Heredia posted:1. That's not an accurate description of the first two seasons. He solves the murder investigation, for starters. The entire premise of season 3 is predicated on Cooper's failures in the original series. If it wasn't there would be no need for him to even return.
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Sep 4, 2017 16:59
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CJacobs posted:I'm well aware that Lynch doesn't do concrete answers in his films. The art doesn't do its talking, is my point. The art mumbles a bit under its breath and then says "good luck". Consider the scope of season 2's ending to season 3's. There is still a large amount of mystery remaining at the end of season 2, but it's a conclusion you can point to and say "I understand this" whether you're happy about how it ended or not. I think episode 17 nicely stuck that landing, and then 18 took it in an unnecessary extra direction that muddled things right at the end. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIhPdSVCdcA
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Sep 4, 2017 17:00
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I really feel like people are having screwy perceptions of E18. The episode doesn't answer everything because it's pretty explicitly a new chapter of the story. E17 wrapped up the thread we were on before and this is something new that may or may not ever be made. The finale is only impenetrable if it's intended to be a self-contained ending to the whole series. And it may end up being the end, but it's pretty explicitly stated that there's more to the story. In Cole's infodump earlier in E17, he says exactly what Cooper is up to. He's enacting a plan to find Judy. I don't see any evidence that he's trying to save Laura in the new version of things and this is some oddball take on cosmic horror or a nightmare timeline created by Cooper's misguided need to save the day. And I've been happy to point out in the past that Cooper's trip to the Lodge in season 2 is a failure too.
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Sep 4, 2017 17:05
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I think in general I'm disappointed Lynch didn't go the soap opera route in this season compared to the other two My fault for being naive, but I'm not familiar with Lynch's work outside TP, so a lot of stuff in this season just comes off as weird to me. Never seen any of his other work I did really enjoy episode 16 and 17 though tbh But idk man. On a whole a lot of it was just not for me Glad I did watch though
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Sep 4, 2017 17:10
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zelah posted:Do we actually know for sure what any of these mean besides the 430? Two birds with one stone refers to Cooper hooking up with both Diane and her sister.
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Sep 4, 2017 17:14
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adamcantsleep posted:making the finale hinge on Dale Cooper's hubris ('cause that's a trait he's known for, right?) Uh, yeah? S1 and S2 are full of Coop charging into situations believe he can solve everything and save everyone. He's charming and good and kind, but he's also pretty proud and seems to believe he can push the envelope and come away unharmed. He was wrong at the end of S2 and it appears he didn't learn his lesson. ruddiger posted:Two birds with one stone refers to Cooper hooking up with both Diane and her sister. nice 
That Dang Dad fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Sep 4, 2017 |
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Sep 4, 2017 17:14
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ruddiger posted:Two birds with one stone refers to Cooper hooking up with both Diane and her sister.
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Sep 4, 2017 17:18
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In episode 1, despite the timeline eventually getting erased, the Fireman has the foresight to tell Cooper who he and Diane will eventually become in their new timeline. 
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Sep 4, 2017 17:18
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NObodyNOWHERE posted:I really feel like people are having screwy perceptions of E18. The episode doesn't answer everything because it's pretty explicitly a new chapter of the story. E17 wrapped up the thread we were on before and this is something new that may or may not ever be made. The finale is only impenetrable if it's intended to be a self-contained ending to the whole series. And it may end up being the end, but it's pretty explicitly stated that there's more to the story. In Cole's infodump earlier in E17, he says exactly what Cooper is up to. He's enacting a plan to find Judy. I don't see any evidence that he's trying to save Laura in the new version of things and this is some oddball take on cosmic horror or a nightmare timeline created by Cooper's misguided need to save the day. And I've been happy to point out in the past that Cooper's trip to the Lodge in season 2 is a failure too. So Cooper is retrieving Laura because she's a cog in the Fireman's plan to take down Judy, just as one punch man was part of the plan to take down BOB.
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Sep 4, 2017 17:18
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Raxivace posted:He doesn't solve the murder investigation- he has to more or less guess and check that Leland is the killer using supernatural hints. While he's running around town getting drawn into red herrings and so on, Leland is able to kill multiple people while Cooper is still in town, BOB still ultimately gets away, becomes Mr. C etc[/i]. How can you arrest a spooky owl man?
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Sep 4, 2017 17:22
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theres stuff going on with coopers pin. i need to rewatch to track it but this whole season his pin has been interesting. he doesnt have it for the giant scene, but has it while in the lodge from s2 to s3 and he doesnt have it when ends up in vegas and i dont think he had it when it turns up at the station but he has it again when he goes into the black lodge motel with mike and then its a different pin (i think, need to double check) when he wakes up after the diane sex. not a continuity error based on how cole's pin rotates while he is looking into the portal at the zone.
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Sep 4, 2017 17:22
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Though it's never directly explained, I'm assuming the glass box at the beginning of the season is owned by Booper/the Chalfonts/some other evil Lodge spirit? As for its purpose, I guess it was intended to trap Cooper/Laura as they shifted between dimensions?
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Sep 4, 2017 17:22
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CJacobs posted:I feel like art needs to be conclusive to be satisfying, even through speculation. And I don't mean that as in a magician giving away his secrets. If you're interpreting a piece of art, you can see it from any angle you want, but what's important is that you can come to a conclusion about what it is and what it means. Episode 18 doesn't give us nearly enough pieces of the puzzle to do that. Episode 17 was conclusive. Far more conclusive than I ever expected Twin Peaks to get. The entirety of Laura Palmer's mystery is encapsulated in a dream, a time loop, another world. That world is real, also the world in ep. 18 is real. Dale travelled between these two worlds. He's the magician in the poem. Laura did too, in a sense, but not willingly. Before it aired, Episode 18 is where I expected this season to start. Not a reboot exactly, but a way to start fresh while keeping the old series in a bottle that you can occasionally drink from. I'm glad it ended there, at least in part because it solves all the problems that would have prevented him from making another season.
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Sep 4, 2017 17:23
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:Though it's never directly explained, I'm assuming the glass box at the beginning of the season is owned by Booper/the Chalfonts/some other evil Lodge spirit? It was a plot device that required people to sit on a couch staring at a glass box for days on end waiting for Dale Cooper to show up in it. Until something else does and eats their faces off. I think the meaning is fairly clear.
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Sep 4, 2017 17:25
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:Though it's never directly explained, I'm assuming the glass box at the beginning of the season is owned by Booper/the Chalfonts/some other evil Lodge spirit? I think it's pretty explicitly there to try to catch a glimpse of Mother - hence the filming and thorough documentation.
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Sep 4, 2017 17:25
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hawowanlawow posted:I think it's reasonable to believe that it cost something to the creator of the doppleganger. Cooper's used some of his hair to create the second Dougie. When Dougie was called into the lodge, he vomited a small amount of garmonbozia while Danzig vomited heaps. In retrospect, I think Danzig used some of his essence to create the first Dougie. I doubt clones are freebies. Now that you say this, it sort of has me wondering if perhaps that's why Cooper seemed a bit like Danzig in the new reality. Some of his goodness/charm was used to create Dougie 2.0.
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Sep 4, 2017 17:26
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what if the cooper who went to janey-e is the real cooper and the one we follow through various dimensions or whatever is the tulpa. my god
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Sep 4, 2017 17:29
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mary had a little clam posted:Uh, yeah? S1 and S2 are full of Coop charging into situations believe he can solve everything and save everyone. He's charming and good and kind, but he's also pretty proud and seems to believe he can push the envelope and come away unharmed. He was wrong at the end of S2 and it appears he didn't learn his lesson. I don't think he's like that at all. He was quite proactive in season 1 and did make headway. Second half of season 2 Cooper was bad but not so much because of the character but because the writers didn't know what they wanted to do with him so he just kind of stood around and thought about things. His biggest failing was in the Lodge at the end of Season 2. I don't think he failed. It's just his opponents are able to move the goal posts around, so he has to go extra miles to accomplish things. He is what Phillip Jeffries was supposed to be - Jeffries kind of lost it and became part of the Lodge while Cooper keeps trucking on.
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Sep 4, 2017 17:30
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Do yall remember the dark spirit that comes out of Dougie when Mike tells him he's been manufactured? Diane's tulpa just dissipates into the golden orb, but Dougie has both a golden orb and a strange black egg. I guess because he was made from Bad Coop, who had Bob around for the ride, so they both contributed to the Dougie tulpa? What do you think it meant that Diane saw another her at the end? Was it her doppleganger? Was the Diane that Coop was with even the real thing? When Cooper asks, "Is that really you, Diane?" near the end, she says "Yes...." and then it lingers silently for a while, like if it were really her she'd have said something more. There's also the possibility that they switched while Coop was checking in to the hotel.
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Sep 4, 2017 17:31
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what year is it
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Sep 4, 2017 17:33
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Kurtofan posted:what year is it
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Sep 4, 2017 17:34
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adamcantsleep posted:How can you arrest a spooky owl man?
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Sep 4, 2017 17:35
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When Jeffries was going to send Coop to find Judy, he said "there may be someone...did you ask me this?" I think maybe this is suppose to infer that Coop has tried this time travel with Jeffries before and the timelines were converging or breaking down at that point. Maybe? Who knows. I'm rewatching everything from season 1 again. It's kinda fun.
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Sep 4, 2017 17:36
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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
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Sep 4, 2017 17:40
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I'm really not surprised that so many people have the reaction they did to episode 18. I know Esco will call me "condescending" and say that I am assuming that I am "smarter than other people", but that has nothing to do with it. I simply feel that art is under no obligation to explain itself coherently and entirely, and that you can take it or leave it. I don't feel that art should be too influenced by what the artist thinks his audience wants. It's not indulgent to create such art; it's honest. Lynch goes to real emotional places that have a real and emotional impact on me, and through his odd style it's as if he plugs into my dream consciousness. He doesn't do this often, but I watch his work in part simply to recapture that feeling. I would urge people to re-watch Episode 8 (Episode Infinity?) because as far as I'm concerned that episode is like the Rosetta stone of the series that's telling us how to view and interpret what we are seeing, and to try and at least understand some of the mechanics at work. It may be as complicated as that golden system of tubes and gears in The Fireman's Place, but it's there, I think, in emotional ways and actual ways. And so much of episode 18 had to do with... I don't know, the presence of Sheryl Lee. It just felt electric.
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Sep 4, 2017 17:42
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