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Guy Windsor told us a story of his early HEMA days once. Their group was doing freeplay with some re-enactment blunts when he had a bit of an accident and ended up stabbing his partner in the thigh. They were lucky it was only a blunt, so once it pierced the skin the sword slipped neatly between two muscles instead of cutting its way through them. The elderly gent at my foil club told me a story of how he once saw a teammate die in a fencing tournament.  
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Sep 4, 2017 09:19
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What material rapier? My club will happily spar with a Rawling broadsword and a helmet, with no other protective kit. Sometimes we do it with the blackfencers, but if we ever get steels, we're definitely not doing that.
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Sep 4, 2017 09:25
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That reminds me of how Roland Warzecha would sometimes do sparring with sharpened swords and minimal protection: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5dc3sFAJWk I mean, I get the idea that a sharpened sword will handle differently in the bind. And perhaps even the idea that wearing protection might only cause you to become reckless without properly protecting you at all. But still, my gut reaction to this will always be 
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Sep 4, 2017 12:33
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Just cover up and cut it out with the macho bs. It's 2017, be better than that. If you're hitting someone hard enough during free sparring (with a rapier no less) to leave bruises, that's your first problem.
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Sep 4, 2017 14:32
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bruises are a sign that everyone is moving at full speed, which is what you want to train at, and if you are not getting a few bruises every practice then you are probably poor fighters. again - take your bruises, don't be a bitch about it. BirdOfPlay posted:Yeah, why should I have to wear a plastron? It makes me sweaty! obviously if you're a woman you should wear a chest protector, just like men should wear cups, but that has nothing to do with being a bitch about bruises. + freak accidents can always happen and, believe me, if something goes fubar with a blade and it breaks sharp or your foil snaps thin and hits you in the face, all the protection you're wearing probably wont do poo poo
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Sep 4, 2017 17:14
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your friend a dog posted:+ freak accidents can always happen and, believe me, if something goes fubar with a blade and it breaks sharp or your foil snaps thin and hits you in the face, all the protection you're wearing probably wont do poo poo Is this some weird HEMA macho bullshit or just macho bullshit?
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Sep 4, 2017 17:19
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Ravenfood posted:Is this some weird HEMA macho bullshit or just macho bullshit? Considering his repeated use of the word "bitch" to describe people who don't like getting bruises, probably. If you're going full-speed all the time during friendly sparring, you're doing it wrong. Even MMA fighters don't wreck their sparring partners. It leads to poo poo technique and attribute fencing (not to mention injuries), which is sadly the norm for most schools in HEMA. Why practice doing something efficiently and with good technique when I can go really, really fast, hit with an ineffective cut, and feel like I accomplished something? This is why I love it when attribute fencers come to my school. Doing ok at some podunk tournament doesn't mean poo poo, and they inevitably get wrecked by some of our mid-level students, let alone our experienced tournament fencers, because attribute fencing will always lose to better technique and smoother movement.
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Sep 4, 2017 18:18
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Siivola posted:The elderly gent at my foil club told me a story of how he once saw a teammate die in a fencing tournament. I assume he was a teammate of Vladmir Smirnov, then? For those not in the know, Smirnov died during the '82 World Champs due to a broken blade piercing his mask. Unfortunately, his wasn't the most recent death in fencing. I also come bearing news exciting *proposed* changes to non-combativity in epee. Here's the minutes from the FIE Rules Commission. Hint: the fun starts on page 7. TL;DR: Non-combativity doesn't apply to epee, and epee bouts are completely restructured by adding shot(hit) clocks and  removing periods all together. At the beginning of the bout, priority is determined. If after 45 seconds no hit is awarded, the fencer with priority is awarded a touch and priority switches. Anytime a hit is awarded, the timer resets and priority changes. If the bout has to go into overtime to reach decision, standard rules apply, and priority is redrawn. A 1 minute break occurs at 5 and 10 touches, presumably similar to sabre at 8. Humorously, bout are now 10 minutes. So to stop bouts from taking so long and boring people, they decided to add an extra minute to the bout.
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Sep 4, 2017 18:31
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What the poo poo.
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Sep 4, 2017 18:36
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BirdOfPlay posted:I assume he was a teammate of Vladmir Smirnov, then? For those not in the know, Smirnov died during the '82 World Champs due to a broken blade piercing his mask. Unfortunately, his wasn't the most recent death in fencing. Also, Ravenfood posted:What the poo poo.
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Sep 4, 2017 18:55
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Someone's pet project, much like how 3-meter sabre lines was that of the current FIE President. It still has to go before the FIE congress in November. If you're a top-level epee fencer, hope you like having December to prepare for this trial!Siivola posted:Hm, I may be remembering wrong. It was a Finnish guy, and I think it happened earlier than that. Hmm, how elderly? Ilmari Vartia of Finland died in 1951 from an unbroken epee. Can't easily find sources for it, but this blurb from Time is pretty haunting: quote:"There is no danger," insisted Vartia as the blade was eased out of the wound, its protective tip still in place. A moment later, with blood staining his white fencer's jacket, Captain Vartia slipped lifeless to the floor.
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Sep 4, 2017 19:16
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Ravenfood posted:Err, no, that's why masks, jackets, and plastrons are rated at what they are, because if a foil breaks sharp and hits you in the face, it...hits you in the mask. That's the point of the protection. I've taken an epee fleche to my wrist that snapped and then had the sharp tip hit me just under the clavicle and I was fine, because I was wearing my gear. unless it goes straight through your mask.... or hits you in the leg and gets an artery.... or you're using a full on rapier that breaks sharp and it just punches through your poo poo Verisimilidude posted:No offense but im pretty sure ive seen a vid of one of your guys you posted and it was mediocre. Obviously you need technique and technique is more important than speed, but being able to move as quickly and efficiently as possible is a technique in and of itself. Ive fought many people who had beautiful technique... and moved at practice speed, making it useless. You need to practice full speed when you fight so that when you get out on the tournament field you can fight properly. Push yourself all the way and practice control so minor bruises stay just that. Every single school ive ever seen that didnt spar full speed was mediocre at most. e: i can do many techniques picture perfect at half/practice speed but they are not nearly as precise at full fighting speed. that is why you need to spar full speed without holding back your friend a dog fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Sep 4, 2017 |
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Sep 4, 2017 20:47
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Yeah, that sounds about right. The gent who told me this is Kurt Lindeman, who competed in the Olympics in both Helsinki and Rome. He's 85 years old and still teaching lessons, he's awesome. 
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Sep 4, 2017 20:49
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you need to be able to whale on a dude, it's how you develop martial spirit, i've come away from the field black from wrists to shoulders for god's sake, my own tassets give me bruises the size of my open palm sometimes, and my shoulder straps
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Sep 4, 2017 20:59
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lol hey gal literally does fencing to get into her reenactmemt persona and yet has a better understanding of what makes a fencer than any of you guys
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Sep 4, 2017 21:44
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And she doesn't call people little bitches while doing so, she's pretty great.
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Sep 4, 2017 22:03
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if you guys didnt whine and then posture maybe you wouldnt have to get called out
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Sep 4, 2017 23:14
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Siivola posted:And she doesn't call people little bitches while doing so, she's pretty great. i also drink heavily edit: tbh it's more important to get whaled on than to whale on a dude. pain isn't that big a deal, don't be scared of it. injury is a danger whether you go half-speed or not--this is the chance we take. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Sep 4, 2017 |
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Sep 4, 2017 23:15
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Perestroika posted:That reminds me of how Roland Warzecha would sometimes do sparring with sharpened swords and minimal protection: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5dc3sFAJWk https://www.facebook.com/brokenplow/videos/908446539238463/
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Sep 5, 2017 00:36
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your friend a dog posted:obviously if you're a woman you should wear a chest protector, just like men should wear cups, but that has nothing to do with being a bitch about bruises. Wait. Do you actually think that lack of boob cups were related to three* fencers loving dying? Plastrons, or underarm protectors, go on the weapon arm side to protect against punctures through the seem of the fencing jacket. And shut up with this bitches and bruises bullshit, the gear is designed to protect against puncture wounds and cuts. *Two of the recent deaths were caused by the fencer not wearing a plastron, but the other fencer was wearing a modified plastron. His plastron had the armpit cut out, because he overheated otherwise. PS, this is the explanation of my joke.  quote:+ freak accidents can always happen and, believe me, if something goes fubar with a blade and it breaks sharp or your foil snaps thin and hits you in the face, all the protection you're wearing probably wont do poo poo The gently caress are you talking about here? Yeah, the freak accident where a blade breaks into a splinter <1.9 mm in radius and atleast full loving foot long is kinda hard to protect against. Granted, it also sounds less likely than Queen Elizabeth II walking up and cockslapping me in the face. And another thing, freak accidents actually happening don't disprove the viability of safety gear, so why should you're accidents that haven't happened do that? A fencer got stabbed through the leg in sabre at Summer Nationals several year back. Surprisely, US Fencing didn't say, "Welp, looks like knickers don't work. Pants no longer required."
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Sep 5, 2017 01:19
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Sorry, I'd never heard that specific term before, and when I googled it it said "plas·tron ˈplastrən noun 1. a large pad worn by a fencer to protect the chest" but apparently it applies to under arm protection too. You do realize most people don't wear those when they do fencing, and the fact that only three people have died out of how many millions that do this means that your example doesn't actually mean poo poo? Especially when you're going on about how unlikely freak accidents are? Since the olympics started in 1896 theres been, what, 9 fencing related deaths? In over a century? People were going  over there being uncovered skin in the video. News flash: that uncovered skin doesn't mean poo poo, stop whining about people with uncovered skin, it makes you look like little babies who are afraid of getting hurt
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Sep 5, 2017 01:28
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your friend a dog posted:unless it goes straight through your mask.... or hits you in the leg and gets an artery.... or you're using a full on rapier that breaks sharp and it just punches through your poo poo And who are you exactly and what is your school?
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Sep 5, 2017 04:34
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Verisimilidude posted:And who are you exactly and what is your school? oops did i strike a nerve? :iamafag: you think you shouldn't spar at full speed, i don't have to explain myself to you
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Sep 5, 2017 05:30
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HEY GAIL posted:i maintain a martial spirit within myself, so i don't need to insult people to feel like i get ahead, although your friend a dog is right--everyone in this thread is too frightened about getting hurt. it5's a martial art! for god's sake. do the puncking and kicking martial arts get scared when someone might get hurt? take all reasonable precautions and then be aware that you might get injured. And yes, some of the punching and kicking martial artists who post here have been posting "I should really quit, I don't want to get TBI" for years now. While also reassuring beginners that boxing is great and safe, sparring is opt-in and people won't go ham at their training partners.
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Sep 5, 2017 09:54
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Which isn't to say I'm not a huge baby about injuries because I totally am.
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Sep 5, 2017 11:02
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your friend a dog posted:oops did i strike a nerve? :iamafag: you think you shouldn't spar at full speed, i don't have to explain myself to you I looked back at it, you're the guy who a while back criticized a very good, very well-renowned hema instructor because he kinda slightly twisted his foot in a demonstration video for beginners. Either you're a chump troll, or another one of these do-nothing armchair-fencing poo poo talkers. As for going ham on your sparring partners, fine. Go ham! My school will continue practicing at 70-80% (and very rarely 100% under specific circumstances) during sparring, 70-100% during drills and pell-work, and bringing back medals every few weeks. edit: looking at your post history, wow dude. No wonder you don't want to out yourself. Just gonna put you on ignore because, really, you're not worth anyone's time. Verisimilidude fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Sep 5, 2017 |
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Sep 5, 2017 12:48
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Verisimilidude posted:I looked back at it, you're the guy who a while back criticized a very good, very well-renowned hema instructor because he kinda slightly twisted his foot in a demonstration video for beginners. Either you're a chump troll, or another one of these do-nothing armchair-fencing poo poo talkers. pretty sure i didnt, i just agreed with the person who said that if you're going to be posting videos online, and you're a "well-renowned" hema instructor, you should probably know how to do your technique perfectly. i dont accept anything less than a perfect technique from the guys i learn from because I know they're capable of it, but perhaps you're more willing to settle than i am. also lol, hema medals. i got 3rd place in HEMA saber when ive never done saber before. your medals dont mean anything e: hit me up when you've gone to something like Pennsic and competed against the actual best in the world, not people like tom leoni. (assuming you even do rapier i guess) your friend a dog fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Sep 5, 2017 |
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Sep 5, 2017 17:19
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your friend a dog posted:pretty sure i didnt, i just agreed with the person who said that if you're going to be posting videos online, and you're a "well-renowned" hema instructor, you should probably know how to do your technique perfectly. i dont accept anything less than a perfect technique from the guys i learn from because I know they're capable of it, but perhaps you're more willing to settle than i am. also lol, hema medals. i got 3rd place in HEMA saber when ive never done saber before. your medals dont mean anything hi
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Sep 6, 2017 10:47
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Re plastrons, yes, everyone does wear plastrons, even in poorly funded university fencing clubs at the arse end of the world where I am. Wearing proper safety gear is good. Nobody calls you a little bitch because you isolated your high voltage wiring before working on it, or because you're wearing gloves and a mask while welding. I assume you martial arts types are the same as us sports people when I say that this kind of macho culture has no place in any kind of reputable professional organisation.
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Sep 6, 2017 10:49
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Crazy Achmed posted:reputable professional organisation. 
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Sep 6, 2017 10:50
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Anyway, let's talk about the proposed epee changes. I get what they're aiming for in principle - to encourage aggression - but it seems like a pretty complicated way of doing so. Does anyone have a better idea? Either that or it's all a conspiracy to sell more boxes.
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Sep 6, 2017 10:53
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Crazy Achmed posted:Anyway, let's talk about the proposed epee changes. I get what they're aiming for in principle - to encourage aggression - but it seems like a pretty complicated way of doing so. Does anyone have a better idea? I think if you accept the premise of the problem it's a pretty good solution. Sounds like lots of people don't accept the premise.
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Sep 6, 2017 13:50
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When I went to a tournament, I remember Epee and Foil being incredibly dull. The two fencers drifted back and forth, but very little "action". The matches were much longer than sabre, to the point where Epee for men and women were split up by putting sabre in between.
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Sep 6, 2017 16:12
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Crazy Achmed posted:Anyway, let's talk about the proposed epee changes. I get what they're aiming for in principle - to encourage aggression - but it seems like a pretty complicated way of doing so. Does anyone have a better idea? Basically, I don't understand why they don't think the current noncom rules don't work already. I'd be willing to try the new rules I suppose, but I'm not sure I like what it might do. Hazzard posted:When I went to a tournament, I remember Epee and Foil being incredibly dull. The two fencers drifted back and forth, but very little "action". The matches were much longer than sabre, to the point where Epee for men and women were split up by putting sabre in between.
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Sep 6, 2017 16:47
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dupersaurus posted:I think if you accept the premise of the problem it's a pretty good solution. Sounds like lots of people don't accept the premise. Ehh, I don't like how it completely changes the bout format for epee. Gone are 3 3-minute periods. Gone are the T256 1 period wipes as well, because now Scooter, at his second tournament, gets 2 1-minute breaks in his bout against Ben Bratton. If nobody scores a hit, it takes nearly 7 minutes for the first break to occur. (Fun fact: they chose 10 minutes for DE bout length over the usual 9 minutes to prevent a hitless tie at 6-6. A most shameful bout.) In comparison to current non-combativity, the fencers lose ~15 seconds (due to the odd wording of it) of time to develop an action. Granted, if you have priority, you fancy the idea of defending against a less developed action or even one that is rushed. The one thing this gets right is that it creates real incentive for action. With the NC as it stand now, both fencers are equally responsible for keeping the bout going. True, the fencer that is behind needs to keep the bout going so as not to lose the time they need to stay in the bout. But I think this has a much stronger incentive, you either take a shot at getting a touch or your opponent gets a free touch. God I hope we don't have to do this for Div1's for the 2nd have of the season. Hazzard posted:When I went to a tournament, I remember Epee and Foil being incredibly dull. The two fencers drifted back and forth, but very little "action". The matches were much longer than sabre, to the point where Epee for men and women were split up by putting sabre in between. Each weapon is different and fun in their own way. There's the big difference in that a touch isn't the definition of an action for the other weapons, and the speed of sabre causes its tactical game to be shallower than the other two. I really only enjoy fencing sabre but love watching any weapon cause it's fencing. What got me started on branching out was that a good friend of mine is/was good at epee and my reffing career. From talking with him and watching a lot of epee bouts I started seeing how things were working and getting an idea for what the fencers were doing. The speed of the events also bleed over into tournament organization. Sabre gets slotted into weird times, because it, as an event, has a much smaller footprint. Besides, typically, having the least number of competitors, the short bouts (and lack of qualified refs) mean that the event can be run with less strips and/or be run faster than the other 2. Needing less strips means it can be run when bigger longer events are winding down. Even though I'd like to have 16 strips for a 100+ epee event, I don't need half of them when I have 16 fencers left. A 50 person sabre event can be started right then and there, orI can start flighting a bigger sabre event. It's crazy to think about how bout committee runs a NAC (and some of the bigger SYC's).
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Sep 6, 2017 17:20
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Finally got back on the strip this week. Foil's fun y'all. 
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Sep 8, 2017 19:58
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Siivola posted:well they're an SCA nerd hema has worse safety standards than the sca by far
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Sep 8, 2017 21:55
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your friend a dog posted:hema has worse safety standards than the sca by far HEMA has no safety standards, since it's all completely decentralised. A friend linked me this from a manga  That is some clubs, mine used to be like that, but we were using fairly safe weapons and fighting sensibly.
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Sep 8, 2017 23:12
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Hazzard posted:HEMA has no safety standards, since it's all completely decentralised. the gladiators were the essence of fencing :-)
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Sep 9, 2017 06:24
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Hazzard posted:A friend linked me this from a manga
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Sep 9, 2017 08:56
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