Roguelikes: I never met@progression I didn't like

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Roguelikes: I never met@progression I didn't like

fishmech: Jul 16, 2006; by VideoGames; Salad Prong

Yeah a simple real world example would be the "great circle" routes airliners tend to stick to instead of sticking to what looks like a straight line on a 2D map:

(However sometimes the great circle route will also be a straight line on a normal 2D map, on occasion, especially for short distances)

# ? Sep 2, 2017 17:02

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# ? May 28, 2024 17:44

Pvt.Scott: Feb 16, 2007; What God wants, God gets, God help us all

fishmech posted:

Yeah a simple real world example would be the "great circle" routes airliners tend to stick to instead of sticking to what looks like a straight line on a 2D map:

(However sometimes the great circle route will also be a straight line on a normal 2D map, on occasion, especially for short distances)

That makes much more sense now. The enemies are just making a straight shot for you and not arcing properly, then?

# ? Sep 2, 2017 17:12

megane: Jun 20, 2008

Pvt.Scott posted:

It's quicker to cut across the diagonal three spaces than it is to move one over and three up, unless you actually charge for the extra distance moved on the diagonal. Think chess movement where some pieces move diagonal and some don't.

In some tactical games (say D&D 3rd edition) moving your first diagonal costs 1 movement, and your second costs two, then one again, then two. They're essentially charging you 1.5 movement for each diagonal, which roughly works out most of the time. In some games, you are not allowed to move diagonally.

So, with hyperbolic geometry, I'm guessing that moving in a specific direction is one move for you, but essentially 1.5 (or probably a slightly different fraction of a whole step), meaning you're essentially moving diagonally while making the other guys pay the cost. How wrong am I?

That's not exactly it. Suppose you're standing right next to me in the hyperbolic plane, and we both walk straight north 5 steps. We'll cover the same distance while moving in straight lines in what seems to be the same direction, but from your perspective I'll appear to curve off to the side and end up some distance away from you. If you want to try and follow me, you'll find you have to keep turning towards me, and since my path is straight and yours isn't, I'll get out ahead of you. It's sort of hard to visualize, since we're used to Euclidean geometry from things like... you know... walking. Actually if you want to learn about hyperbolic geometry HyperRogue is a great tool, since you get to see what's happening firsthand.

^ Spherical geometry is also non-Euclidean, but "curved" in exactly the opposite way from hyperbolic geometry. For instance, if you add up the angles of a triangle in Euclidean space, you get 180 degrees, but for a triangle on a sphere you get more than 180, and for a hyperbolic triangle you get less.

# ? Sep 2, 2017 17:12

Pvt.Scott: Feb 16, 2007; What God wants, God gets, God help us all

megane posted:

That's not exactly it. Suppose you're standing right next to me in the hyperbolic plane, and we both walk straight north 5 steps. We'll cover the same distance while moving in straight lines in what seems to be the same direction, but from your perspective I'll appear to curve off to the side and end up some distance away from you. If you want to try and follow me, you'll find you have to keep turning towards me, and since my path is straight and yours isn't, I'll get out ahead of you. It's sort of hard to visualize, since we're used to Euclidean geometry from things like... you know... walking. Actually if you want to learn about hyperbolic geometry HyperRogue is a great tool, since you get to see what's happening firsthand.

^ Spherical geometry is also non-Euclidean, but "curved" in exactly the opposite way from hyperbolic geometry. For instance, if you add up the angles of a triangle in Euclidean space, you get 180 degrees, but for a triangle on a sphere you get more than 180, and for a hyperbolic triangle you get less.

Euclidean geometry is for suckers and mentally unstable college professors from the American Northeast, circa the 1920s.

# ? Sep 2, 2017 17:16

fishmech: Jul 16, 2006; by VideoGames; Salad Prong

Yeah a proper hyperbolic case you'd be doing different sorts of curves from the real-world curves we use for long distances on Earth, but it's the same basic concept. What initially looks like traveling in a straight line for the shortest path will actually take you more distance to the same place.

On the actual Earth, if you and I start say 50 feet east and west of each other and start walking proper due North, we will eventually bump into each on the way to the North Pole as following North will slowly bring us together.
On a map or a pure 2D plane, it would look like we should stay 50 feet apart eternally.
On a hyperbolic world as described, as we walked North we would slowly draw apart instead of slowly drawing together.

# ? Sep 2, 2017 17:20

Pvt.Scott: Feb 16, 2007; What God wants, God gets, God help us all

fishmech posted:

Yeah a proper hyperbolic case you'd be doing different sorts of curves from the real-world curves we use for long distances on Earth, but it's the same basic concept. What initially looks like traveling in a straight line for the shortest path will actually take you more distance to the same place.

On the actual Earth, if you and I start say 50 feet east and west of each other and start walking proper due North, we will eventually bump into each on the way to the North Pole as following North will slowly bring us together.
On a map or a pure 2D plane, it would look like we should stay 50 feet apart eternally.
On a hyperbolic world as described, as we walked North we would slowly draw apart instead of slowly drawing together.

So, is a hyperbolic plane shaped kinda like a shoe horn or a maxi pad? My brain is smoking.

# ? Sep 2, 2017 17:32

FreeKillB: May 13, 2009

That's the general correct shape if you want to embed it in (3-dimensional) Euclidean space in a way that preserves 'distance'. Another model that's used is an open disk in the 2-dimensional plane (the interior of a circle), but equipped with a different notion of 'distance'.

# ? Sep 2, 2017 18:11

fritz: Jul 26, 2003

Pvt.Scott posted:

So, is a hyperbolic plane shaped kinda like a shoe horn or a maxi pad? My brain is smoking.

A video might help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7QO9sypSfM

# ? Sep 2, 2017 18:12

Awesome!: Oct 17, 2008; Ready for adventure!

math is the most bullshit roguelike

# ? Sep 2, 2017 20:10

Captain Foo: May 11, 2004; we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'

Pvt.Scott posted:

So, is a hyperbolic plane shaped kinda like a shoe horn or a maxi pad? My brain is smoking.

Standard references for hyperbolic planes: saddle, Pringle

# ? Sep 2, 2017 20:27

Johnny Joestar: Oct 21, 2010; Don't shoot him?

...
...

as a heads up for anyone who doesn't keep track of the qud thread, a big update revamping the cybernetic implant system for true kin just came out yesterday.

quote:

We replaced the old cybernetics system with a newer, much more elaborate one.
Cybernetics are still only available to true kin.
We added dozens of new cybernetic implants.
Implants are installed onto body parts at cybernetic terminals called 'becoming nooks'. Potential body parts include: head, face, body, back, arm, hands and feet. Unlike old implants, these new implants do not occupy equipment slots.
A few implants actually do occupy equipment slots.
You can view your installed implants on the new Cybernetics tab of the Equipment screen. The tab doesn't appear if you have no implants installed.
Implants must be identified before you can install them.
Only one implant can be installed per body part.
Some implants can be installed on one of several body parts.
Each implant has a license point cost associated with it. The total number of license points across all your installed implants can't exceed your license tier.
True kin start with a license tier of 2. You can upgrade your license tier at a becoming nook by spending cybernetic credits.
You can install and uninstall implants freely at a nook, as long as you remain at or below your license tier.
Uninstalled implants go into your inventory. Some implants are destroyed when uninstalled, however. Other implants can't be uninstalled. All this info is in the implant's description.
When installing implants at a becoming nook, the implants must either be in your inventory or the nook's rack.
There are some preset becoming nooks in the game. They also have the chance to appear in certain types of procedurally-generated ruins. Becoming nooks usually have implants in their nook racks.
Implants themselves can also appear as rare loot.
Per the Eaters' architecturally tastes, becoming nooks are usually found along side statues of implanted Eaters.
Most cybernetic credit wedges are now placed in preset locations throughout the world, but they also can appear as very rare loot.
True kin can pick one implant from a subset of the implants to start with at character creation.
The list of starting implants includes generic ones and a unique implant for each arcology only available to characters from that arcology.
Added a new journal category: Ruins with Becoming Nooks.
Some factions, but especially the Putus Templar, now share the locations of ruins with becoming nooks as secrets.
Balanced the Templar's water ritual credit wedge gift for the new system.
Reduced true kin's starting attributes by 2.
Added a whole bunch of minor stuff in support of this patch.
Made the night-vision visual effect more playable.
Fixed an issue with Sense Psychic and Heightened Hearing not properly showing identified object tiles.

# ? Sep 2, 2017 20:51

RPATDO_LAMD: Mar 22, 2013; 🐘🪠🍆

Pvt.Scott posted:

That makes much more sense now. The enemies are just making a straight shot for you and not arcing properly, then?

It is actually possible for enemies to keep up with you if they're behind you and following in your footsteps. Outrunning enemies by walking in a straight line only happens in areas where they can't do that, like the Land of Eternal Motion where every floor tile collapses and turns into a bottomless pit one turn after you step on it.

However since only one enemy can be next to you and still following your exact path, a player who's in melee range of two enemies can walk in a straight line to outrun one of them and then fight the other guy one-on-one.

# ? Sep 2, 2017 21:09

super sweet best pal: Nov 18, 2009

-2 base stats to true kin? Ouch.

I guess having quicker access to Cybernetics kind of makes up for it.

# ? Sep 2, 2017 21:23

Johnny Joestar: Oct 21, 2010; Don't shoot him?

...
...

super sweet best pal posted:

-2 base stats to true kin? Ouch.

I guess having quicker access to Cybernetics kind of makes up for it.

the new cybertech is -really- good, and it's easier to get access to it all around

# ? Sep 2, 2017 21:29

Glimpse: Jun 5, 2011

Johnny Joestar posted:

super sweet best pal posted:
-2 base stats to true kin? Ouch.

I guess having quicker access to Cybernetics kind of makes up for it.

the new cybertech is -really- good, and it's easier to get access to it all around

It is really good. And their base stats are still higher than mutants, just a little less so, now.

# ? Sep 2, 2017 21:58

ToxicFrog: Apr 26, 2008

Serephina posted:

That is amazingly unappealing =[ Shame, because I really enjoyed the unfinished AliensRL and was being mollified that at least Kornel's new project was going to be similar.

Kornel has had DiabloRL 75% finished for years now, but it looks like it's an abandoned project. Maybe it'll get open-sourced like DoomRL?

# ? Sep 4, 2017 01:34

verbal enema: May 23, 2009; onlymarfans.com

Nomadic Scholar posted:

Well, I'm new-ish to straight roguelikes, so I decided to give DCSS and Pathos a try on my phone. Seems like it'll be a good ol' time of getting loving murdered against the wall.

How did you get DCSS to work on your phone?

I'm missing like a buncha keys to do anything

# ? Sep 4, 2017 02:06

Nomadic Scholar: Feb 6, 2013

Theres an ASCII app for it, super baseline but it's still DCSS. It has a tiny keyboard and everything and works alright.

Edit: granted, I have no clue what I'm doing and accidentally threw some bread away on a few occasions.

Nomadic Scholar fucked around with this message at 07:17 on Sep 4, 2017

# ? Sep 4, 2017 07:13

StrixNebulosa: Feb 14, 2012; You cheated not only the game, but yourself.
But most of all, you cheated BABA

Is AwfulCoE4Mods dead? The Conquest of Elysium 4 thread is dead, so I asked in the next best place, and well. These mods are good up to 4.21 and I have 4.24. (I just bought it today and "won" my first game on Jester difficulty - I beat the Druid and his murderblob, and cleaned out a bunch of places but can't be bothered to carefully go around the map sitting on places when there's no fun involved.)

# ? Sep 4, 2017 19:32

zirconmusic: Nov 17, 2014; Unstoppable Trash Panda

Klaus Kinski posted:

Bought tangledeep and I'm really impressed. The #1 thing on my wishlist is a muuuuch better interface for crafting and eating food if you intend to keep it as essential as it is now.

We are planning some quality of life UI stuff for these things soon!

# ? Sep 4, 2017 19:40

Tollymain: Jul 9, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

im vaguely taking care of them but havent played coe4 recently, there was a major update?

# ? Sep 4, 2017 19:44

StrixNebulosa: Feb 14, 2012; You cheated not only the game, but yourself.
But most of all, you cheated BABA

Tollymain posted:

im vaguely taking care of them but havent played coe4 recently, there was a major update?

quote:

4.22 changes

This is mostly a bug fix update and with it a few serious (but rare) bugs are fixed.

General changes
Fixed "out of space" bug with many many siege engines
Fixed incorrect damage on ...explosion on death
Prince of Death can no longer cast lichcraft
Earth Mother can no longer get ritual to summon herself
Captain Illusions/Phantasms were not ethereal
Crash fix for Voice of El
--nocitynames didn't disable all names
Wrong popup for scoregraph button
Attack info popups were cut off
New monster description
Typos fixed

Modding changes
Mod comments (#) can start anywhere on a line

quote:

4.23 changes
Unfortunately Carrions caused the game to crash after the last update, so this is a quick fix for that problem.

General changes
The on death explosion of Carrions caused the game to crash

quote:

4.24 changes
This update brings a few new magic items and makes the start a little easier for the Markgraf that now gets a small graveyard near his home. Certain exceptional event like hordes of inferno controlled demon being in Elysium, can now postpone a player victory until it has been dealt with. Also a bunch of bug fixes and modding improvements.

General changes
Inferno and other exceptional events can disallow player victory
3 new magic items
Cursed scrolls
New terrain: Small graveyard
Markgraf starts with small graveyard
Twiceborn can now get level 1 ghost necromancers
AI Baron don't drain iron bogs
Some High Cultist rituals never failed like they should
Slightly increased chance for Frost Giants
Iron Scorpion got poison for its stinger
Walking through lava and dying didn't work properly in network games
House ruins will now have living villages in Hades
Enchanter Portals cannot be created on portal squares
Tower of the Elements no longer has fungus income
Massive Boulder siege weapon now has longer range
Cannot tunnel diagonally
Tunnel MP cost 6 -> 5
Warlock Greater pact cheaper for level 3 warlocks
Instant message and sound when finding unguarded magic item
Legion of Gods slightly more powerful
Reduced HP for Oracles
Kappa can use weapons
Shikome has spirit sight
Always a sealed chamber in dark ages
Coral Tower was not a water square, fixed
Increased max number of items in a square
Didn't get message when finding items in unoccupied square on network
Could not always use void portals
Typos fixed

Modding changes
Max nbr of rituals per commander 32 -> 48
Max number of rituals 1000 -> 1500
Map editor now scrolls square names too
Shops upgrading commanders caused a crash, fixed

I... am not sure if this effects those mods or not. :shobon:

# ? Sep 4, 2017 19:46

Tollymain: Jul 9, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

oh i think i have played since the last patch then

yeah, the current versions of the modpack def work, theyre here

also if you're having trouble holding places try expanding at a more deliberate place and maintaining smaller patrol armies for popping deer and recapturing farms and poo poo

# ? Sep 4, 2017 20:02

StrixNebulosa: Feb 14, 2012; You cheated not only the game, but yourself.
But most of all, you cheated BABA

Tollymain posted:

oh i think i have played since the last patch then

yeah, the current versions of the modpack def work, theyre here

also if you're having trouble holding places try expanding at a more deliberate place and maintaining smaller patrol armies for popping deer and recapturing farms and poo poo

Thank you so much!

And yeah - I could see the shape of the game more as I played. On Jester difficulty I got away with just deathballing around killing things, and it would've been a pain to split up and hold things, so I stopped there. I'm hyped to play a new game tomorrow though, and bump the difficulty up so I have to play it properly and actually worry about holding things and so on.

I'm basically doing difficulty tuning like I had to in Invisible Inc - at easy that game is boring and terrible, but the hardest is too hard for me, so gotta find the right level between losing constantly and being bored to tears.

StrixNebulosa fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Sep 4, 2017

# ? Sep 4, 2017 20:08

TooMuchAbstraction: Oct 14, 2012; I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.; Fun Shoe

zirconmusic posted:

We are planning some quality of life UI stuff for these things soon!

Can I request dedicated diagonal movement buttons for those of us playing on keyboard? I can see the utility of the current control scheme for controllers, but I have a numeric keypad and I'd love to be able to just hit 1/3/7/9 to move diagonally, like in most roguelikes.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 20:11

StrixNebulosa: Feb 14, 2012; You cheated not only the game, but yourself.
But most of all, you cheated BABA

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

Can I request dedicated diagonal movement buttons for those of us playing on keyboard? I can see the utility of the current control scheme for controllers, but I have a numeric keypad and I'd love to be able to just hit 1/3/7/9 to move diagonally, like in most roguelikes.

...wait, you can't do that already in Tangledeep? What did I miss in the latest updates?

# ? Sep 4, 2017 20:13

Jazerus: May 24, 2011

StrixNebulosa posted:

Thank you so much!

And yeah - I could see the shape of the game more as I played. On Jester difficulty I got away with just deathballing around killing things, and it would've been a pain to split up and hold things, so I stopped there. I'm hyped to play a new game tomorrow though, and bump the difficulty up so I have to play it properly and actually worry about holding things and so on.

I'm basically doing difficulty tuning like I had to in Invisible Inc - at easy that game is boring and terrible, but the hardest is too hard for me, so gotta find the right level between losing constantly and being bored to tears.

i usually play on a huge map with 9 AIs on baron. everyone gets a fairly significant territory of their own, but not so much that the game is boring - just enough that your first major battles are going to involve more than regular troops, though. the AI is reasonably competent without being able to simply outbuild you.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 20:15

TooMuchAbstraction: Oct 14, 2012; I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.; Fun Shoe

StrixNebulosa posted:

...wait, you can't do that already in Tangledeep? What did I miss in the latest updates?

If there's a way to do it, I didn't notice it in my cursory look through the configuration. I'll take another look.

EDIT: okay, it turns out to be NumLock bullshit. If it's toggled, then 1/3/5/7 work properly for numeric movement, and if it isn't, they don't. Funny thing is, my keyboard doesn't even have a NumLock button! But it happens to have another button that Windows interprets as NumLock.

NumLock is super dumb. I get its utility for spreadsheet users, and I get that they were a substantial portion of computer users back in the 80's, but that's still no excuse to break input for everyone else. Keys should do what it says on the keycap, dammit. :colbert:

Also, my Tangledeep save won't load.

When I try it just dumps me back to the title screen. Not a huge loss, but still irritating.

TooMuchAbstraction fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Sep 4, 2017

# ? Sep 4, 2017 20:23

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

Tollymain posted:

im vaguely taking care of them but havent played coe4 recently, there was a major update?

Maybe two? Dryad queen is a new class that owns (and that the AI is even more transcendentally awful at than dwarfs) and a qualiry of life patch that among other things doesn't end the match if an invasion event is ongoing. :v:

Edit gently caress beaten and I missed the context

# ? Sep 4, 2017 20:24

StrixNebulosa: Feb 14, 2012; You cheated not only the game, but yourself.
But most of all, you cheated BABA

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

If there's a way to do it, I didn't notice it in my cursory look through the configuration. I'll take another look.

Yeah, I just booted it up and set it to the default WASD configuation (num lock is on!) and I can use the numpad fine for movement, including diagonals.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 20:28

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

pumpinglemma posted:

Are there any good resources out there explaining how Unexplored is even remotely winnable? Maybe a good let's play? I'm not totally incompetent, but I can't get below level 5 or so and I feel like I'm missing a bunch of important tricks.

I recommend finding multiple decent damage staves. :v:

# ? Sep 4, 2017 20:29

Stelas: Sep 6, 2010

Managed to do an Angel of Max Carnage run on UV taking less than 500 damage. Which is a Diamond badge, but I guess if you didn't have the Gold badge yet (do the same thing on HMP) you only get credit for that one. Booo. I probably could've taken out the Mortuary (main offence was a plasma shotgun to gib corpses) but I decided it was better not to risk it.

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

EDIT: okay, it turns out to be NumLock bullshit. If it's toggled, then 1/3/5/7 work properly for numeric movement, and if it isn't, they don't. Funny thing is, my keyboard doesn't even have a NumLock button! But it happens to have another button that Windows interprets as NumLock.

I'm on a bootcamped macbook and honestly I just rely on op{ and the six keys below them these days. I've got a usb number pad but it's not as comfortable.

# ? Sep 4, 2017 22:39

RPATDO_LAMD: Mar 22, 2013; 🐘🪠🍆

If a game does not allow hjklyubn as a control scheme it is Not A Real Roguelike.

Seriously though, that control scheme takes a bit of getting used to but it's really nice once you do. I still use it even when I have a numpad, because it puts your hands right in your normal typing position where you can reach all the other keys you want. It's a pain to hit common keys like 'i' or 'o' when your right hand is far off in the distance hanging out on a numpad.

# ? Sep 5, 2017 00:30

zirconmusic: Nov 17, 2014; Unstoppable Trash Panda

There was a bug for like 20 mins earlier that caused save file compatibility issues in Tangledeep but it should be fixed now. If you're still having trouble please let me know.

# ? Sep 5, 2017 01:27

verbal enema: May 23, 2009; onlymarfans.com

Nomadic Scholar posted:

Theres an ASCII app for it, super baseline but it's still DCSS. It has a tiny keyboard and everything and works alright.

Edit: granted, I have no clue what I'm doing and accidentally threw some bread away on a few occasions.

Nah I got that one I just couldn't figure out how to use the keyboard.

Tried moving the menu selection down and it was acting like enter

# ? Sep 5, 2017 03:27

Stelas: Sep 6, 2010

code:

 Doomguy, level 9 Hell Baron Major Scout,
 defeated the Mastermind at the City of Dis.
 He survived 39351 turns and scored 107509 points. 
 He played for 33 minutes and 42 seconds. 
 He was a man of Ultra-Violence!

 He killed 262 out of 262 hellspawn. (100%)
 This rear end-kicking marine killed all of them!
 He was an Angel of Max Carnage!
 He was also an Angel of Overconfidence!

A gold and a platinum badge in a single run might be cheating a bit, but abusing Dual Angel challenges in doomrl is surprisingly funny.

# ? Sep 5, 2017 13:31

dis astranagant: Dec 14, 2006

If you've never tried Gunkata on AoMC, do so. It's amazing.

# ? Sep 5, 2017 13:36

Stelas: Sep 6, 2010

I have, but I don't know that I'd do it on UV - so much of the game at that point revolves around blindfiring that using pistols can be really painful. It is absolutely hilarious to do, though, I admit.

# ? Sep 5, 2017 13:41

dis astranagant: Dec 14, 2006

Once it gets setup anything smaller than a vile dies within 3/10 of a second after entering view anyway, plus dodgemaster abuse.

# ? Sep 5, 2017 13:47

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# ? May 28, 2024 17:44

StrixNebulosa: Feb 14, 2012; You cheated not only the game, but yourself.
But most of all, you cheated BABA

Jazerus posted:

i usually play on a huge map with 9 AIs on baron. everyone gets a fairly significant territory of their own, but not so much that the game is boring - just enough that your first major battles are going to involve more than regular troops, though. the AI is reasonably competent without being able to simply outbuild you.

I'm gonna try this soon! Thank you!

# ? Sep 5, 2017 13:49

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