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RBX posted:Just like someone posted he had to have multiple expostion dumps because things were so muddled. It's almost like hinging complex plots on two characters who used to be played by dead actors and who are now a tea kettle and a disembodied head is not conducive to clarity.
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Sep 5, 2017 07:26
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JBP posted:The last ten minutes owned because it was like I was slowly being beaten to a bloody pulp and then murdered in the final 30 seconds. yeah, everything after Coop and Carrie leave Odessa fills me with dread even though barely anything happens. just this slow creeping realization as you get closer and closer to the end credits that there's no happy ending or closure at the end of their journey, just disappointment. and then when you think the show is going to end on an sad, understated note, they throw in some existential terror in at the last second.
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Sep 5, 2017 07:27
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pissdude posted:I think it's fair to criticize any piece of media. I think it's a lame copout to respond to a very dense and oblique cliffhanger ending like that to just go I DONT GET IT THAT SUCKED rear end. You are missing the point a bit with your comment about 'you didn't get what you want'. Part of why there is negative reaction to the finale is because it didn't give people what they wanted, yes. But what they wanted was what the show had been leading them to believe they'd get. It wasn't just their unbounded imagination, or their fantasy, people were responding to the show. The ending of the show is a massive leap because a) the majority of the narrative had focused on things unrelated to Laura Palmer, let alone on the idea that she, who's been dead for 25 years, could be 'saved', and b) very little, if anything, in the narrative of the show, the previous show, and the film suggested that 'alternative dimensions that are like ours' and 'changing events in the past' were things that we could expect. There's an emotional vacuum in the show's last leap because the motivations and the logistics are not very convincing. I like the concept and I thought the execution of a fair amount of the last episode was good, but the transition from one thing to the other was rough. Real rough. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Sep 5, 2017 |
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Sep 5, 2017 07:37
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To be fair Jefferies whole character is a prelude to what happens to Coop but there's no way we could predict Coop would try to follow him, even unwittingly. Gordon said everyone that tries these cases disappears and I assume Coop knows this so why would someone as smart as him even try? BUT the whole Jefferies thing is so unexplained that who knows what Coop knows about him and his case.
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Sep 5, 2017 07:42
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I’m trying to think of how to explain the finale to my therapist (who I see on a weekly basis) without spoiling it because I think I got her interested enough to watch the show one of these days but I also want her to have a vague understanding of how nuts the finale was. She has a kid, so the closest analogy I’ve come up with to give her so far is to imagine her kid getting bullied at school for years. She’s finally able to transfer the kid to another school, the kid makes friends and begins to thrive, but then suddenly a new bully comes into the kid’s life to make it a living hell. The cycle just repeats itself. Nothing can ever be perfect.
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Sep 5, 2017 07:43
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:I’m trying to think of how to explain the finale to my therapist (who I see on a weekly basis) without spoiling it because I think I got her interested enough to watch the show one of these days but I also want her to have a vague understanding of how nuts the finale was. Paying a hundred bucks to sell someone on Twin Peaks seems like a very good use of money.
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Sep 5, 2017 07:56
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Art Alexakis posted:I'm bad at using grammar so I might gently caress up a bunch here. But here are my final takes on episode 18. This is a great post. Even if I don't agree 100%, there's plenty there that I think is spot on. It also made me realize just how flawed Cooper is. On a first viewing of S1 & 2, it's easy to think he's the perfect FBI agent except for possibly failing his test of courage in the lodge. But really, he has a major Achilles Heel -- protecting or rescuing Lynch's archetypal "woman in danger". He completely fucks up when tasked with protecting Windom Earle's wife. He lets his gf Annie get kidnapped but debatably does play a role in rescuing her. He can't prevent Maddie's murder during his active investigation into her cousin's murder. When Audrey actively needs and asks for his help, he is of no use at so. And following the above theory, where the final scream from not-Laura indicates her waking up to a world where she will continue to be raped, he completely undermines Laura's decision to end her suffering. Cooper's not great at his job.
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Sep 5, 2017 08:00
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Tiffany posted:I see a lot of theories about Odessa Cooper being a tulpa or somewhat evil. I think it's really Cooper but he's in one of those lodge induced hazes sort of like what happened when he was inside of Dougie without his memories just less extreme. Plus, he probably thinks he's surrounded by enemies and doesn't know what's real or fake in the Judy diner which explains why he's so abrupt with the waitress and points his gun at the elderly couple and restaurant staff. He's on a rescue mission. Pinterest Mom posted:All throughout episode 18, we see first-person shots of driving at night. Up until episode 18, those shots have been frequently and exclusively used to indicate that Booper was driving somewhere. Regarde Aduck posted:He's not Cooper or Booper. He's Richard. Did you guys miss the fact there in a universe where everything is different? Including Cooper. A couple other people mentioned that he is Cooper, but with "some of the bad parts put back in" and I don't buy this at all. We at no point in time were ever lead to believe that Cooper and his doppleganger were one in the same or parts of a whole. The doppelganger was just an evil entity that looked like him. Perhaps some discovery could change this concept, but I haven't seen it yet. Anyways, I'm beginning to sour on ep18 a bit. Not because its hard to understand, lacks conclusion, or is a big mystery or anything like that. It just feels so far removed from the rest of the season. Its nearly its own self contained plot, and is pretty disjointed when compared with the other 17 episodes. It reminds me a lot of FWWM. I feel like we should have had an extended ep17, intro duce a few concepts from 18, and then do 18 as a semi-stand-alone movie like FWWM was. 18 would be a lot easier to swallow with different context and not being a part of s3. eSporks fucked around with this message at 08:27 on Sep 5, 2017 |
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Sep 5, 2017 08:24
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Like some others have said the finale really affected me, leaving me depressed and just empty feeling. I give props to Lynch for creating that sense of dread that is probably unparalleled in TV. When Coop crosses over and everything feels off and wrong and nothing is what you want. HOWEVER (if there's no season 4) I feel like this finale ruined all of Twin Peaks. This is still fresh so I might be over reacting but I can't imagine going back to season 1 and enjoying it a fraction of how I used to, knowing that either none of this ever happens or none of this even matters or both. Cooper changing so that he's not the person we all love, I don't like that. The one constant in Twin Peaks was Coop, and this whole show was building up to getting him back, only to change him to this rougher colder version that didn't sit well. The finale was so just out of left field compared to everything that came before. I mean when people are posting quotes from a web site that a fictional character from the show wrote to try to make sense of things you know you're in trouble. Also so many things didn't matter. Audrey being the worst example, but also Ben Horne, Shelly's daughter, Cole and Albert's whole investigation (Albert said nothing but "ok" for the last 5 episodes), Tammy did nothing etc. I don't know, I loved 95% of this series and if there's another season I'll shut the hell up, but right now I don't feel good. Maybe a rewatch will help.
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Sep 5, 2017 08:30
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Lord Krangdar posted:I don't mind that they dropped Earle. He never lived up to the way he was described. Not even close. Although for all his silly Riddler bullshit, Earle did have a higher success rate with his schemes than Dark Cooper did, I think?
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Sep 5, 2017 08:32
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Alan_Shore posted:Like some others have said the finale really affected me, leaving me depressed and just empty feeling. I give props to Lynch for creating that sense of dread that is probably unparalleled in TV. When Coop crosses over and everything feels off and wrong and nothing is what you want. I get being disappointed, but season 2 ended with Coop basically being dead to the viewer and presumably being as evil as Leland. I found that hard to grapple with at what I assumed was the absolute end of the show.
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Sep 5, 2017 08:33
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Honestly the thing I'm most sour about is the Cooper and Diane stuff, which I'm finding difficult to even put into words my issues with it. All of their scenes together made me uncomfortable, but I think that was the point. At least in 18. I'll touch on it again once I gather my thoughts. It's just so very strange. Everything else about the finale, though, I loved, even if I was flabbergasted at not seeing Audrey again, after the way 16 ended. Honestly my least favourite part of the two hours was One Punch Man vs Janeane Garofolo's bowling ball.
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Sep 5, 2017 08:36
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RBX posted:To be fair Jefferies whole character is a prelude to what happens to Coop but there's no way we could predict Coop would try to follow him, even unwittingly. Gordon said everyone that tries these cases disappears and I assume Coop knows this so why would someone as smart as him even try? I think thematically Coop can't exist in our world, he is too good and too pure to be imagined outside of his constant quest. It is never over for him, he can't go back to family life with Diane or chillin at FBI while the case of Judy is still open. Lodge conversations with Giant/Fireman and Mike enlightened him further and made him an agent of the light, he knows exactly what to do and even the ending can't shake him - destiny will lead him out and we will meet at the curtain call.
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Sep 5, 2017 08:40
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My friend has a good theory about Coop not really being smart at all and simply being extremely intuitive and good, which boils down to it's most pure form in Dougie. It's interesting to think about given that it's hard to fathom Cooper having a real understanding of the poo poo he's dealing with. He's just winging it since he is in some way blessed, but he gets caught out in the end anyway. Same goes for Briggs in some ways. He is invested so deeply in the beautiful parts of humanity and his answer to Earle in S2 is wonderful.
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Sep 5, 2017 08:51
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:I’m trying to think of how to explain the finale to my therapist (who I see on a weekly basis) without spoiling it because I think I got her interested enough to watch the show one of these days but I also want her to have a vague understanding of how nuts the finale was. That's funny. The second a therapist starts talking to me about loving movies or television instead of doing their job I leave. I'm sure no one is surprised that this happens all the time and I've yet to find a therapist who doesn't want to kill 40 minutes talking about the poo poo they've seen the last weekend with no input from me or interest in the issues I'm paying them to treat.
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Sep 5, 2017 08:52
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My only real complaint is the Audrey stuff. If it was never going to be addressed again I think it might've been better to leave things as a weird, poorly acted melodrama.
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Sep 5, 2017 09:00
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DrVenkman posted:My only real complaint is the Audrey stuff. If it was never going to be addressed again I think it might've been better to leave things as a weird, poorly acted melodrama. Hell, or just leave her out. Though Twin Peaks without Audrey is like Twin Peaks without David Lynch imo, I think I would be angrier if Fenn wasn't involved at all. I loved what they did with her, but it definitely felt like they were building to more, that there would be some sort of conclusion connected to the end game. Especially with her showing up so late into the story, and 'waking' in the same episode Coop does. Lynch said she was important to the season's story, and on the surface it seems she wasn't, in the end. imo she's the dreamer. It's just a matter of deciphering what all was a dream, and what wasn't.
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Sep 5, 2017 09:13
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esperterra posted:Honestly the thing I'm most sour about is the Cooper and Diane stuff, which I'm finding difficult to even put into words my issues with it. All of their scenes together made me uncomfortable, but I think that was the point. At least in 18. Him and Diane is a real mystery because in seasons 1 & 2 they sound nothing like a long time couple. I thought maybe she was his girl but it was pretty vague. Now all of a sudden they're casually tounging each other down? All of that felt like something was missing.
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Sep 5, 2017 09:28
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sector_corrector posted:I;m thinking about thos peaks
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Sep 5, 2017 09:34
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Even Diane tells Gordon they had only kissed once before Bad Coop came to her, and she made it seem more like it was her doing than his. Their kiss when she's freed from the body of Naido was fine to me, if a little sudden, because it was like a catharsis to her, while also functioning as a way for her and Cole to confirm this was really Dale. It was one heated kiss, though, and felt weird from Coop. Though who knows how much of the real world's goings on he was privy to while in the Lodge. But their scenes after felt odd, unearned, not just because their relationship is such a mystery, but this was our first time seeing what may or may not have been the real Diane. The Diane we saw all season was just a tulpa, and who knows how much of that Diane's personality lines up with the Diane of seasons 1-2, and before. Now I'm still uncertain just what we saw with their sex scene. Was it them after leaving Twin Peaks? Was it Richard and Linda? How much time did they spend together before going into that motel? How much time did they spend apart after that night? When Cooper wakes and leaves, it's a different location from the one they went into. Hell, for that matter could the scene have been in the past? I'm of the mind that nothing in the back half of 17 or the entirety of 18 is 'real'. Cooper is real, but the world he's moving through is an illusion. I'm not sure the Diane he meets as he exits Glastonbury Grove is even the real one, and he left her behind with Cole when he walked through the door in the boiler room. I usually wouldn't be fussed about something as hard to pin down as the Coop/Diane thing feeling 'earned', if it were any character but her. I watch Lynch's stuff in a way where I just let the experience wash over me and ask questions later, but Diane being such a big mystery the whole series and these 25 years, and their friendship being a mystery, it just took me out when they were suddenly macking and loving in the finale. Had it been some other old lover we just learned about this season, rather than Diane, I wouldn't have batted an eye. That said, their sex scene was beautifully done. Uncomfortable and tense in the best way, even with me wondering in the back of my mind about their past and distracting me. The way the shots were set up, so close in on either her back or face and barely giving us glimpses of a Cooper who seemed to be somewhere else entirely. The way she kept covering his face and looking away, but couldn't or wouldn't stop what was happening. Unnerving stuff.
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Sep 5, 2017 09:47
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I'm sure I'll be jumped on for saying this but what did they people upset by e18 actually expect? I know things were confusing and sometimes impossibly convoluted, hard to follow, etc. but isn't that the point? That's why I like watching the show and why I've liked a number of other David Lynch movies. I'd never watch something he's directed with some sort of preconceived idea of what I wanted to see. Isn't being surprised and confused and then spending time milling it over really the best part of Twin Peaks? Isn't that what everybody has been doing since S2 ended? I'm not saying nobody can criticise it because there were probably more than a few dodgy parts, but overall I found it quite fun and looked forward to each episode. Dropping in to the thread to say "last episode sucks and now tp is ruined forever!!" is pretty stupid and just makes you sound like an entitled nerd. That said though, for me the worst part of e18 was the uncomfortably long and cringey sex scene and seeing Laura Dern's boob + spine.
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Sep 5, 2017 09:52
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JBP posted:I get being disappointed, but season 2 ended with Coop basically being dead to the viewer and presumably being as evil as Leland. I found that hard to grapple with at what I assumed was the absolute end of the show. I think the downer part of that was the knowledge was that it was the end of Twin Peaks. Deep down we all knew that if there had been a season 3 Coop would have come back eventually with the help of Truman and friends. This ending however, everyone is completely hosed/deleted/fundamentally changed forever. It's a bitter pill to swallow, and unlike FWWM I don't think it enhances the original at all. Like I said I think I might have ruined the original, and all because of the last half hour of S3. I really really hope there's more to come. Edit: ^^^ I wouldn't say that Twin Peaks s1 and 2 were convoluted or hard to follow.
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Sep 5, 2017 09:59
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RBX posted:Him and Diane is a real mystery because in seasons 1 & 2 they sound nothing like a long time couple. I thought maybe she was his girl but it was pretty vague. Now all of a sudden they're casually tounging each other down? All of that felt like something was missing. I think we're supposed to infer that there's always been this unspoken thing between them. It makes his tapes to Diane a sort of series of letters from a lover almost. However, in hindsight it reads much more like Cooper again trying to undo the damage that has been done. It feels like Cooper is trying to reclaim their relationship by saying look, I'm not that guy who did this to you. But Diane can't look at him when they're having sex and it's basically tearful the whole time and Cooper, or this version of him, is not a good lover.
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Sep 5, 2017 10:10
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That Coop/Diane sex scene is so effective man. I see it as a mix of Diane being obviously unable to look at the face of her rapist while also retreating into the Linda persona and realising she's forgetting him and her original self/then that fully happening and her not recognising the guy in front of her at all.
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Sep 5, 2017 10:14
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MonoAus posted:I'm sure I'll be jumped on for saying this but what did they people upset by e18 actually expect? I didn't expect anything, really. By the time 17 had ended, I knew we would be taking a journey that felt wildly unrelated to most of what we had seen in the previous 16, and that Audrey wouldn't be touched on. 18 was my favourite part of the two hours. The only downside was me spending those long car rides trying to suss out the logistics of the Cooper/Diane stuff bugging me. Laura Dern's titty was an upside. In general, most people were expecting to tie up more plotlines, I imagine. They were expecting BOB to be defeated, and Coop off to destroy whatever is inside Sarah in time to find Audrey. Or something along those lines, at any rate. I would argue the ending we got is in fact far more deeply tied into the story Twin Peaks has been telling from episode 3 of the season one. But I won't begrudge people going in with different expectations and coming out disappointed. My trick was having no expectations at all. And I loved every bit of this season, personally, from act one to curtain call. What gets me is when people would be all fussy about the show not taking place only or primarily in Twin Peaks any more. The way season 2 ended the show had to grow past the town this season, or do people think BOB/Bad Coop would really stay there for 25 years?
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Sep 5, 2017 10:15
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MonoAus posted:I'm sure I'll be jumped on for saying this but what did they people upset by e18 actually expect? This is kind of a shallow post. You're basically saying that Twin Peaks is good because it's confusing and weird. But it's more than that. There's a logic to the weirdness; you can argue that in some parts, the logic is stronger than in others. I think that people were (understandably) not expecting the finale to hinge on characters and relationships they didn't know. The Diane of the last episode is basically a new character (quite different from the one we'd seen before) and we had not actually *seen* her relationship with Cooper before. Laura has been dead for the entirety of the show, she never met Cooper when they were alive and he wasn't really like, obsessed with her. She didn't have much to do with his plight of ending in the Red Room. On the other hand, Annie is not in the show at all (although I doubt anyone really cares. I know I don't) and Audrey has a weird role that ultimately did not directly tie into the plot. These were the actual relationships we knew Cooper had and that we'd seen and understood; they're sidelined for ones that are more tenuous to the audience. I suspect that Audrey could have replaced Diane in the finale. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 10:32 on Sep 5, 2017 |
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Sep 5, 2017 10:21
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Looking back, the only things I'm really bothered about not getting more wrapup for are Audrey and the whole Becky/Shelly/Bobby thing.
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Sep 5, 2017 10:21
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MonoAus posted:I'm sure I'll be jumped on for saying this but what did they people upset by e18 actually expect? I don't necessarily hate episode 18. Viewed out of context, it's a really cool episode, but I was expecting something different from the conclusion to the 16 preceding parts: - Cooper meeting Audrey, possibly in some parallel dimension - The cocaine wizard and the Chinese designer drugs figuring into the Lodge leaking - Bobby and Shelly dealing with the death of their daughter - More emphasis on foiling the doppelganger's plan, particularly some conclusion to what escaped from the box - Some confrontation with the charred men - Returning to the endless purple ocean, which Cooper spent a long time staring at - More lengthy exchanges between Diane and Cooper (He sent her a tape every single day, for god's sake.) - Tammy, Albert and Gordon doing anything at all to help Instead, we got a conclusion to the Laura storyline from the first few episodes and little else. If Audrey's scenes, Shelly's scenes, most of Ben Horne's scenes, all of the scenes featuring Ed, Norma, Dr. Jacoby and Nadine were removed, nothing of relevance to the overarching plot would be lost. The finale could happen exactly like it did. Individually, I enjoyed many scenes and even episodes, but for the overall story, barely any of it mattered. The only reason why Tammy, Albert and Gordon matter at all is because they hang out with Diane's tulpa. And More fucked around with this message at 10:38 on Sep 5, 2017 |
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Sep 5, 2017 10:22
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They existed for exposition and Monica Belluci. And I'm okay with that. Shame Cole didn't reunite with Shelley, though. If I were the type to want fanservice, that would be the fanservice for me.
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Sep 5, 2017 10:31
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Escobarbarian posted:Coop rescues Diane but he actually has nothing at all to do with the defeat of BOB. He just kinda shows up.
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Sep 5, 2017 10:31
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Just watched the International pilot, it was weird, Mike is like "Bob, break yo self foo" then blasts him. I did like how it ended the exact same way as s3 with Laura whispering something in coops ear in the lodge while credits rolled, I know that happens in the normal show but I don't remember if it happens during credits.
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Sep 5, 2017 10:42
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And More posted:Instead, we got a conclusion to the Laura storyline from the first few episodes and little else. If Audrey's scenes, Shelly's scenes, most of Ben Horne's scenes, all of the scenes featuring Ed, Norma, Dr. Jacoby and Nadine were removed, nothing of relevance to the overarching plot would be lost. The finale could happen exactly like it did. I think this is worth reiterating, because one of the lines of defense against any criticism of the show is "well what did you expect, a bunch of fan service and nostalgia?" But the show is full of fan service and nostalgia. I realize that David Lynch is a Serious Artist and all, but surely no one thinks that the presence of so many characters from the original series (and movie), in a show that is largely set away from Twin Peaks and that delves little into the town itself, was 100% an organic artistic choice and not largely driven by the desire to work with old friends, right? You can't possibly tell me artistic muse is why Carl, a minor character from FWWM who is played by one of Lynch's longtime friends and collaborators, has multiple scenes in this revival, whereas Donna, one of the main characters in the original show who was played by someone Lynch didn't get along with, is not even mentioned. It also shows in how roles like Donna or Truman are not recast (even though there's precedent in recasting Donna). Obviously it's not an either/or thing, a lot of the stuff with the old cast members makes thematic points and has emotional heft. For most of it, no real attempt was made to tie it into the main plots, and the scenes just rely on your familiarity/affection for the characters to hold your attention. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 11:11 on Sep 5, 2017 |
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Sep 5, 2017 10:48
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If the Ed and Norma resolution isn't fan service, then I don't know what is tbh
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Sep 5, 2017 10:51
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kaworu posted:Well, guys, I'm gonna go soothe my brain with watching Star Trek reruns on Netflix; like a droning narrative tonic, the television equivalent of cherry pie and ice cream/comfort food for a sci fi dork. drat fine rak'tajino here at ten forward...and good cellular peptide cake too
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Sep 5, 2017 10:58
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The fan service is also obvious when the next-to-last episode's scene of 'changing the past' features a bunch of archival footage of Jack Nance, Joan Chen, and Piper Laurie. Maybe 'fan service' is not the right word; it's not necessarily done for 'the fans'. It's just not done because of some artistic muse, but because these are their friends and collaborators from the old show and they want to work with them again and have them be part of this revival. It's 'Twin Peaks service'. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 11:07 on Sep 5, 2017 |
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Sep 5, 2017 11:02
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:Obviously it's not an either/or thing, a lot of the stuff with the old cast members makes thematic points and has emotional heft. It is also fan service at the same time, sometimes primarily so. For most of it, no real attempt was made to tie it into the main plots, and the scenes just rely on your familiarity/affection for the characters to hold your attention. Yeah, exactly. Not everything has to figure into the plot, but almost none of it did. I think that makes the last episode look divorced from large sections of the Return. By the way, I think the reality Cooper tried to fix still largely exists because MIKE sends the new Dougie to Lancelot Court after Laura disappears. Dougie Cooper doesn't happen without Cooper getting trapped inside the Lodge.
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Sep 5, 2017 11:09
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Escobarbarian posted:That Coop/Diane sex scene is so effective man. I see it as a mix of Diane being obviously unable to look at the face of her rapist while also retreating into the Linda persona and realising she's forgetting him and her original self/then that fully happening and her not recognising the guy in front of her at all. People have also pointed out that the way she covers, and feels his face with her hands is the same thing Naido does in the White Lodge scene with Cooper at the beginning of the season.
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Sep 5, 2017 11:11
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Sushi in Yiddish posted:drat fine rak'tajino here at ten forward...and good cellular peptide cake too 69th rule of acquisition: Dig! Yourself! Out! Of the poo poo!!
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Sep 5, 2017 11:29
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God now I just want Armin Shimmerman and Andrew J. Robinson in the double r complaining about root beer
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Sep 5, 2017 11:34
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Maarak posted:Did the Ghostwood development project ever come to fruition? if i remember right, secret history says ben cancelled it because he felt guilt over what happened to audrey. audrey mentions ghostwood this season but she's talking about the forest of ghostwood. could have been interesting if they built a bunch of houses there and your bathroom shower curtain is right on top of glastonbury grove.
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