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FilthyImp posted:I took C+ programming in High School and that was an ungodly exercise in frustration given that there was no documentation, the teacher was just learning C+, and I didn't have interwebs to help. Everything was just so abstracted for me that it didn't click at all. Are you missing a + or am I missing the joke?
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Sep 5, 2017 17:34
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Twerk from Home posted:Are you missing a + or am I missing the joke?  My bad, it was probably C++ (can't remember if the teacher was going from C to C++ or from some other language to C). Whatever CodeWarrior was handling around 98 anyway.
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Sep 5, 2017 17:46
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divabot posted:This doesn't mean they'll all become coders, but they will get the basic idea concerning the machinery that our civilisation literally runs on now - that it isn't magic, it's something humans can do, including them if they want. FilthyImp posted:My elementary circa late 80s was incredibly forward thinking with respect to computers, and the sum of most of their Lab time was learning how the 5.x floppy drive worked, getting to use KidPix or the Oregon Trail or learning the basics of The Writing Center. This is absolutely the right thing to do, and it's much more useful than drilling whatever programming language is currently the trendiest (and which will very likely become irrelevant ten years down the line) into kids without any appreciation for how they generally understand and interact with tech.
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Sep 5, 2017 17:59
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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20 years ago schools that weren't teaching kid/beginner focused stuff like LOGO and BASIC were mostly teaching C/C++ - still relevant today. 10 years ago they were teaching Java, which is still huge even though the specific user-facing applet fad died off - hell lots of kids still learn it on their own to gently caress with Minecraft. And of course 10 years ago and now you still often see LOGO or BASIC used for courses just meant to teach the basics of programming concepts although you're never really supposed to do anything serious with them based on what you'd learn there. I don't really think schools focus too often on "trendy" languages that don't stick around long term, they instead focus on popular languages that simply won't be the biggest trend in a while but remain important things to know for an actual job in programming. After all, it's a bit difficult to get a curriculum on the latest flash in the pan that compiles down to Javascript or whatever. The AP Computer Science curriculum and tests for instance did PASCAL from 1984-1998 (though PASCAL made a lot more sense to teach back in the 80s of course), C++ 1999-2003, and Java since 2004. And while the AP courses are naturally meant for high school, it's pretty common for middle school level courses in schools that offer it to be aligned to "meet up" with the AP course's requirements, and for any non-AP level computer science course in the high school to follow the same languages.
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Sep 5, 2017 18:36
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the old ceremony posted:i think that instead of coding, schools should teach basic social skills and empathy Parents should too.
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Sep 5, 2017 19:26
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I might take the whole "learn2code" campaign a little more seriously if it didn't seem to be backed by companies that will tell candidates to gently caress off if they have 10 years experience in Java 1.4-7 but not the ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL Java 8 experience.
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Sep 5, 2017 20:23
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Gazpacho posted:I might take the whole "learn2code" campaign a little more seriously if it didn't seem to be backed by companies that will tell candidates to gently caress off if they have 10 years experience in Java 1.4-7 but not the ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL Java 8 experience. otoh java 8 is p great
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Sep 5, 2017 20:25
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also looking forward to jpms with java 9! can't wait for java modules
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Sep 5, 2017 20:29
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Try telling that to a bank IT department.
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Sep 5, 2017 20:29
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Gazpacho posted:Try telling that to a bank IT department. tbh i'm surprised they're not using cobol on cogs
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Sep 5, 2017 20:31
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Gazpacho posted:I might take the whole "learn2code" campaign a little more seriously if it didn't seem to be backed by companies that will tell candidates to gently caress off if they have 10 years experience in Java 1.4-7 but not the ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL Java 8 experience. Link to a real world example of this happening? I have sold IT services for the better part of a decade and in my experience, companies typically don't give a poo poo if someone is certified on the absolute latest version of XYZ product if they have substantial experience (especially recent experience) in earlier versions. Unless you find someone who's an absolute phenom at Java 1.4 and hasn't touched a more recent example than that, to use your example.
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Sep 5, 2017 20:45
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My favorite was in the '90s, when I saw a company advertising for 5 years experience in Java, which at that particular date required you to be James Gosling.
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Sep 5, 2017 20:46
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I guess I should have clarified - companies without a dedicated IT recruiter (or someone who at least listens diligently to their IT team) will always be boneheaded when it comes to hiring. When I've actually gotten my guys in front of the IT team, I've never had an issue. Since we were always contractors, I rarely spoke to HR at all.
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Sep 5, 2017 20:49
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I don't have a specific example on hand (and don't know about Java versions) but as an aside: I have read some bizarrely specific and adamant job descriptions that scanned as a negative photograph of a former "bad" employee.
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Sep 5, 2017 20:52
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pangstrom posted:I don't have a specific example on hand (and don't know about Java versions) but as an aside: I have read some bizarrely specific and adamant job descriptions that scanned as a negative photograph of a former "bad" employee. some of those exist to justify h1b hires, by claiming no-one (but the person the company wants to recruit) fits the job description
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Sep 5, 2017 20:55
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Shooting Blanks posted:Link to a real world example of this happening? I have sold IT services for the better part of a decade and in my experience, companies typically don't give a poo poo if someone is certified on the absolute latest version of XYZ product if they have substantial experience (especially recent experience) in earlier versions. Unless you find someone who's an absolute phenom at Java 1.4 and hasn't touched a more recent example than that, to use your example.
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Sep 5, 2017 21:04
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There's a crappy local ISP that will advertise for a web developer and in the ad they'll want someone to know Corel DRAW. Last time I saw one of those ads it was 2012.
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Sep 5, 2017 21:04
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Condiv posted:some of those exist to justify h1b hires, by claiming no-one (but the person the company wants to recruit) fits the job description The negative exposure ones though are less insanely-demanding and more inappropriately energetic on specific competencies or social skills in a way that tells a story.
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Sep 5, 2017 21:42
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Condiv posted:also looking forward to jpms with java 9! can't wait for java modules Are those like Java Cassettes?
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Sep 5, 2017 23:41
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my son will learn how to milk a goat and calve a cow, he will learn that burying burnt wood and unburnt wood allows different types of fungi to flourish in the soil, he will learn the ways of the echidna, and he won't know that computers even exist until he turns 21
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Sep 6, 2017 00:18
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the old ceremony posted:my son will learn how to milk a goat and calve a cow, he will learn that burying burnt wood and unburnt wood allows different types of fungi to flourish in the soil, he will learn the ways of the echidna, and he won't know that computers even exist until he turns 21 This is right up there with those crazy christians trying to pray the sickness out of their kids instead of taking them to a doctor
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Sep 6, 2017 00:38
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the old ceremony posted:my son will learn how to milk a goat and calve a cow, he will learn that burying burnt wood and unburnt wood allows different types of fungi to flourish in the soil, he will learn the ways of the echidna, and he won't know that computers even exist until he turns 21 Your kid is going to be very confused about dicks.
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Sep 6, 2017 03:01
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Shakenbaker posted:Your kid is going to be very confused about dicks.
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Sep 6, 2017 03:12
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The first three links I clicked mentioned looking for Java experience in general; the first two said that hands on work with Java 8 would be ideal (but did not specify it as a dealbreaker), while the third, the only mention of 8 specifically was in what the company was doing (ie how they built they systems you'd be working on), nothing in the candidate requirements. Best of luck with the job search - would doing some open source stuff or a personal project help, do you think? It felt like that would satisfy the first two postings (the third seemed even more lax), which gets your foot in the door at least.
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Sep 6, 2017 05:24
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Senor Dog posted:This is right up there with those crazy christians trying to pray the sickness out of their kids instead of taking them to a doctor
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Sep 6, 2017 05:31
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Sorry I don't have a recording of a conversation with a recruiter to post, I do have other business to attend besides being able to document everything I say online.
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Sep 6, 2017 05:31
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the old ceremony posted:my son will learn how to milk a goat and calve a cow, he will learn that burying burnt wood and unburnt wood allows different types of fungi to flourish in the soil, he will learn the ways of the echidna, and he won't know that computers even exist until he turns 21 Man, you have come straight out of left field with your gimmick but it's v. satisfying, please keep up the good work
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Sep 6, 2017 06:24
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Noggin Monkey posted:Man, you have come straight out of left field with your gimmick but it's v. satisfying, please keep up the good work [REDACTED] has been a shining beacon of light on these dead gay forums for ages.
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Sep 6, 2017 06:57
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Gazpacho posted:Sorry I don't have a recording of a conversation with a recruiter to post, I do have other business to attend besides being able to document everything I say online. I don't doubt that it has happened in the past - but it would seem to me to be a very rare occurrence for a company to need hands on experience with a specific version of a given software/language, if extensive experience in previous versions is apparent. That said, what I have seen a lot of are postings that ask for experience in everything: Requires: 5 years Oracle/MS SQL 3 years AWS 7 years Java 7 years C++ 5 years RHEL CCNA VMWare etc. etc. What's always funny about those postings is they not only ask for you to be a legitimate expert in everything, they'll also want you on call 24/7 (plus working one weekend a month), with an offer of $42k.
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Sep 6, 2017 07:26
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It only stands to reason that someone would make a Keurig for Java 
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Sep 6, 2017 09:16
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Shooting Blanks posted:I don't doubt that it has happened in the past - but it would seem to me to be a very rare occurrence for a company to need hands on experience with a specific version of a given software/language, I got plenty of that the last time I was looking for consulting work. People insisting Visual C++ was something different than C++ was something different than Borland C++ and so on. I saw more of it secondhand a after the iPhone SDK had been out for a while. Initially any even marginally relevant experience was a golden ticket. But it wasn't long before recruiters were sucking their teeth and saying "Oooh, we're really looking for iPhone experience, not Mac" to people who were drat experts and could've picked up UIKit in their sleep. It wouldn't surprise me at all if I went out looking again for recruiters to ding me for not having exactly the right experience with technologies that I helped design. Because recruiters are poo poo and this sort of thing does, in fact, happen all the time.
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Sep 6, 2017 10:32
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Liquid Communism posted:A little bit of coding knowledge is to the modern student what a little bit of computer literacy was to our generation. It's something they're expected to know for what they think the workplace is going to look like in 10-20 years. Coding requires no discipline to do and can be self taught unless you're doing some programming for serious hardware and/or trying to adhere to strict safety standards Then you spend those hard earned bucks on a CS degree Significant Ant fucked around with this message at 10:51 on Sep 6, 2017 |
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Sep 6, 2017 10:48
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Significant Ant posted:Coding requires no discipline to do and can be self taught unless you're doing some programming for serious hardware and/or trying to adhere to strict safety standards I said nothing about discipline. Logic. Logic is the key. Understanding on the fundamental level that computers are machines that follow instructions in the most literal way imaginable, not magic.
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Sep 6, 2017 10:55
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Which usually doesn't teach you much of anything about how to write embedded software, or write software that meets specific safety standards. A CS major might include one class on software engineering that involves developing a spec and/or implementing to a spec, with a certain level of assumption of correctness on the part of the spec. (After all, algorithmic correctness is a topic for a different class…)
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Sep 6, 2017 10:56
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fishmech posted:The AP Computer Science curriculum and tests for instance did PASCAL from 1984-1998 (though PASCAL made a lot more sense to teach back in the 80s of course), C++ 1999-2003, and Java since 2004. And while the AP courses are naturally meant for high school, it's pretty common for middle school level courses in schools that offer it to be aligned to "meet up" with the AP course's requirements, and for any non-AP level computer science course in the high school to follow the same languages. I fell into the PASCAL period for AP CS, and I'm glad I did - it's useful to teach in a language that you don't see used much outside of the classroom. It helps abstract the concepts from the implementation. Some universities use languages like Scheme for the same purpose.
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Sep 6, 2017 13:20
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Gazpacho posted:I might take the whole "learn2code" campaign a little more seriously if it didn't seem to be backed by companies that will tell candidates to gently caress off if they have 10 years experience in Java 1.4-7 but not the ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL Java 8 experience. Lie and say you have 10 years in Java 8. No, I'm not kidding.
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Sep 6, 2017 13:26
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Well since the STEM debate is inevitable at this point, can someone let me know in 20-30 pages when something interesting happens again?
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Sep 6, 2017 15:26
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Shooting Blanks posted:I don't doubt that it has happened in the past - but it would seem to me to be a very rare occurrence for a company to need hands on experience with a specific version of a given software/language, if extensive experience in previous versions is apparent. That said, what I have seen a lot of are postings that ask for experience in everything: The hiring manager tells HR "we need a mid level person with 5ish years of experience in c++ or java with databases (oracle, mssql, etc), preferably in Linux (we use rhel)" and you get that.
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Sep 6, 2017 15:34
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Qualifications: be way too good for this job, especially at the rate it pays.
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Sep 6, 2017 16:17
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super sweet best pal posted:Qualifications: be way too good for this job, especially at the rate it pays. That's like every job ad ever.
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Sep 6, 2017 16:33
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