|
Jessica Williams, if there's justice.
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2017 18:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 23:49 |
|
|
I remember a guy on another forum being really angry about Jodie Whittaker being cast so I naturally assumed, "Oh, he doesn't want a woman to play the Doctor," but it turned out he was just furious that it wasn't Alison Brie. (I can't really see it myself; this guy just has a borderline-unhealthy obsession with Community.)
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2017 18:58
|
|
|
The_Doctor posted:Jessica Williams, if there's justice. We both know that there is no justice for Jessica Williams.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2017 19:05
|
|
|
There's not much you can do with Toymaker and not have him end up as a Batman '66 villain.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2017 20:45
|
|
|
You could have him do some of the poo poo like House from The Doctor's Wife, or take a cue from Labyrinth with the nightmarish set pieces that cheat.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2017 20:51
|
|
|
Wait DS9 already solved this problem. Move along home...
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2017 20:52
|
|
|
Virtually every season of Doctor Who has a simulated reality of some kind, and the concept of "games" is broad enough that the Toymaker doesn't need to be pigeonholed. He has a hell of a lot more going for him than the Zygons.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2017 21:40
|
|
|
Bicyclops posted:Virtually every season of Doctor Who has a simulated reality of some kind, and the concept of "games" is broad enough that the Toymaker doesn't need to be pigeonholed. He has a hell of a lot more going for him than the Zygons. I'm envisioning him playing a ccg with cards of the episode's various characters.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2017 23:14
|
|
|
CommonShore posted:I'm envisioning him playing a ccg with cards of the episode's various characters. gently caress. Now I want to see this episode.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2017 23:41
|
|
|
XBenedict posted:gently caress. Now I want to see this episode. Write it up; submit it to BBC. It'll get rejected but somehow show up on air with a different writer's name on it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 02:41
|
|
|
Bicyclops posted:Virtually every season of Doctor Who has a simulated reality of some kind, and the concept of "games" is broad enough that the Toymaker doesn't need to be pigeonholed. He has a hell of a lot more going for him than the Zygons. In their favour, Zygons look cool and were only a racist caricature one of three times!
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 02:57
|
|
|
cargohills posted:In their favour, Zygons look cool and were only a racist caricature one of three times! Now, now We need to have the Toymaker show up at least two times before we can judge who is more racist It is kind of amazing that the further out we get from 1960s Britain, the less racist the Toymaker seems on the face of it. A villain of a sci fi time travel show called the CELESTIAL TOYMAKER? THAT'S AN AWESOME NAME! Why haven't they brought him back y-oh Oh. Oh. gently caress that's not referring to gently caress
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 03:03
|
|
|
Yeah, they definitely have to lose all reference to "celestial" if they bring him back.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 03:28
|
|
|
Bicyclops posted:Yeah, they definitely have to lose all reference to "celestial" if they bring him back. Why couldn't they ditch the Asian (e. gross Asian caricature) bit and keep the "of the heavens" sense?
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 04:35
|
|
|
CommonShore posted:Why couldn't they ditch the Asian (e. gross Asian caricature) bit and keep the "of the heavens" sense? Well, they could, but if it were me, I'd be inclined to just drop the adjective all together. At this point there are people who are likely to associate it with what it originally meant. I'm up to The Smugglers in my rewatch, and lol again at Dodo's departure just being Ben and Polly basically saying "Oh, Dodo's gone now" and giving her the Simpsons Moochie ending.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 04:43
|
|
|
CommonShore posted:Why couldn't they ditch the Asian (e. gross Asian caricature) bit and keep the "of the heavens" sense? It's just kind of a poisoned well at this point sadly
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 04:51
|
|
|
Bicyclops posted:Well, they could, but if it were me, I'd be inclined to just drop the adjective all together. At this point there are people who are likely to associate it with what it originally meant. I know that I personally wouldn't assume 'celestial' to be an offensive term, but I think if you're bringing back an old villain like him and using that name all you're going to do is teach a whole new generation of curious nerds about a fifty year old racial epithet.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 05:07
|
|
|
Wait, what? Celestial is a racist term?
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 08:41
|
|
|
Davros1 posted:Wait, what? Celestial is a racist term? Yes. http://www.rsdb.org/slur/celestial Not a super bad one, just evoking the exotic mysteriousness of those inscrutable orientals. edit: of course it also means heavenly. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/celestial Context matters. It's okay to have a chink in your armor, but not to call someone a chink. Maybe when the Celestial Toymaker was made it was supposed to be a sort of naughty pun, where it was both an otherworldly toymaker and a chinese toymaker. Facebook Aunt fucked around with this message at 08:57 on Sep 6, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 08:45
|
|
|
But the Celestial Intervention Agency 
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 08:50
|
|
|
There's one pretty good Big Finish story that uses the Toymaker, but to be honest it gets a lot less interesting once he actually shows up in it.Wheat Loaf posted:I remember a guy on another forum being really angry about Jodie Whittaker being cast so I naturally assumed, "Oh, he doesn't want a woman to play the Doctor," but it turned out he was just furious that it wasn't Alison Brie. Alison Brie is great, but if you're going to use anyone from Community then Paget Brewster. And Paul F Tompkins as companion. Fil5000 fucked around with this message at 08:56 on Sep 6, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 08:51
|
|
|
Fil5000 posted:Paul F Tompkins as companion. gently caress you for giving me this glimpse of a more perfect world that can never exist
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 10:51
|
|
|
corn in the bible posted:Being back the valeyard I agree that they should bring back Toby Jones!
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 11:05
|
|
|
They should pull a fast one and bring back the Valeyard except now he's played by David Tennant (he's revisiting a few old faces).
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 11:08
|
|
|
Wheat Loaf posted:They should pull a fast one and bring back the Valeyard except now he's played by David Tennant (he's revisiting a few old faces). Burkion posted:no justice for Jessica
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 11:33
|
|
|
Wheat Loaf posted:They should pull a fast one and bring back the Valeyard except now he's played by David Tennant (he's revisiting a few old faces). I mean I'm on board with this regardless of how we approach it. But I think it's important to decide early on how this notion is handled. A: Tennant is known to be the Valeyard from the outset B: The Valeyard is known as an entity for a while, but is revealed (perhaps with a cliffhanger) to be Tennant C: We're led to believe we're seeing a multi-Doctor episode but Ten is written a little darker, until eventually we learn he's not Ten at all
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 12:05
|
|
|
I really don't care for the Toymaker. There's an interesting concept there but I find him really boring and all of his stories thus far have had the same twist (he cheated?!?!). That just makes him come off as really incompetent rather than some kind of mastermind...
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 12:57
|
|
|
Facebook Aunt posted:
I think it was this, unfortunately. Cruel Rose posted:I really don't care for the Toymaker. There's an interesting concept there but I find him really boring and all of his stories thus far have had the same twist (he cheated?!?!). That just makes him come off as really incompetent rather than some kind of mastermind... He's only had one story, though, and that wasn't really the twist 
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 14:34
|
|
|
Facebook Aunt posted:Yes. http://www.rsdb.org/slur/celestial So if he's not in yellowface and dressed like a Mandarin it should be fine?
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 14:35
|
|
|
Either Big Finish or BBC Books retconned in that there were several Guardians alongside the Black and White Guardian (as portrayed by Valentine Dyall and Cyril Luckham) and that the Celestial Toymaker was the Crystal Guardian, though I don't remember which.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 14:43
|
|
|
Wheat Loaf posted:Either Big Finish or BBC Books retconned in that there were several Guardians alongside the Black and White Guardian (as portrayed by Valentine Dyall and Cyril Luckham) and that the Celestial Toymaker was the Crystal Guardian, though I don't remember which. This kind of poo poo is why it's better not to insist on repeating every character from the past shows. Just leave them be and write new stuff
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 14:49
|
|
|
The only celestials I'm all that interested in seeing
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 14:50
|
|
|
Davros1 posted:Wait, what? Celestial is a racist term? You obviously need to watch Deadwood.
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 14:51
|
|
|
Dabir posted:So if he's not in yellowface and dressed like a Mandarin it should be fine? No because it still has the open problem of anyone going to look up more about the guy and seeing what he's really about. It'd be better to just drop it entirely. Toymaker is fine
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 15:37
|
|
|
John Barrowman as Thirteen
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 18:04
|
|
|
howe_sam posted:The only celestials I'm all that interested in seeing IGNORE ME
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 18:06
|
|
|
Burkion posted:No because it still has the open problem of anyone going to look up more about the guy and seeing what he's really about. Wouldn't that still be the case if they brought the character back as just 'The Toymaker' and said it's the same person? (Or even if they didn't...) Wikipedia isn't going to have seperate articles for them. Based on this thread, they just sound like a standard one-off villain who would probably be too close to The Riddler or something else well known if you brought them back. Also, nth-ing as someone else who had never heard the term 'celestial' as a racial slur before. (I've not watched much 1st Doctor to be honest.)
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 20:11
|
|
|
It's not the same and I can tell you why It was included as a racist slur. That's part of the character. You either remove it, or you keep it as a racist slur. And Then There Were None isn't known by it's many, many lovely titles anymore now is it? Oh sure you can look up what they were, and if you are old enough you may even remember one or two of them, but the point is that we can do better NOW. Doing better now does not mean keeping what was wrong and pretending it didn't mean that. That is ignorance at best, malicious at worst. EDIT: To clarify even further- bringing back the character as just the Toymaker would at least show progress from where we were 50 years ago. I don't think that's a hard ask. It would be an admission by the show that what they did was kind of hosed, without having to make a big deal about it. Keeping his name the same would be deeply disappointing and show how little they care. Burkion fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Sep 6, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 20:24
|
|
|
Dabir posted:So if he's not in yellowface and dressed like a Mandarin it should be fine? Honestly I doubt modern kids would even recognise this as yellowface.   He doesn't look Chinese at all, and his costume isn't what people think of as stereotypically chinese anymore. He'd have to show up Mao suit or with one of those pointy straw hats or something. His costume looks like just another crazy alien costume. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 20:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 23:49 |
|
|
Burkion posted:It's not the same and I can tell you why To be clear, I'm not arguing we should bring back that character at all. It seems to me to be a weird 60s relic not worth revisiting. If they brought it back, I'd hope it'd be radically revised. But your written point was that the show's makers ought not to revive it under the old name because people can go and look up what 'celestial' was and meant in the context of British 1960s views on race. My point is people could still do that, even if you renamed it to just 'The Toymaker'. No amount of the current progam makers (or the ones who made that story) admitting that it was racist then and wrong to do changes that. If you wish to avoid reviving the term 'celestial' as a racial slur and possibly bringing back old racist imagery into popular awareness, then your best bet is not touching the character again. Stabbatical fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Sep 6, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 20:57
|
|