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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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77 | 25.50% |
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160 | 52.98% |
| M |
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65 | 21.52% |
| Total: | 229 votes | ||
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Calibanibal posted:im the corncob Rapist
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Sep 7, 2017 00:43
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Just to keep us from getting too happy about the GOP being punked for a change, some dem had to give in to his natural urges. http://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/ward-room/daniel-biss-carlos-ramirez-rosa-illinois-governor-442930773.html Supporting BDS is the one punishable sin in centrist politics, it seems.
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Sep 7, 2017 00:50
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daniel piss
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Sep 7, 2017 01:26
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Lightning Knight posted:So I'm actually reading through this and it's really fascinating in depth, these pictures don't really convey what the article is about. The article is about some focus group testing they did coupled with some opinion polls and data points, alongside direct voter quotes from Obama to Trump voters and "rising American electorate voters," or black people, Latinos, and the under 25. The article essentially is portraying the logical end game of obsession over the "middle class," as America recedes from its post-war boom and we return to the equilibrium that has always been common, the 99/1 divide. The amount of open racism and acceptance of classical reactionary talking points even among young people is alarming and the picture this article portrays is very, very grim. They care a lot more about welfare queens than rich people. I'm having a hard time reconciling Sonderweg PAC's "we gotta get more racist and take from the poor and give more money to the rich" conclusions with the information from nonpartisan polling outfits showing that the majority of Americans want government health care, a living wage, and more generous unemployment, and even increases in food stamps  And also the fact that progressive policies like higher minimum wage pass overwhelmingly if the people are actually allowed to vote on it
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Sep 7, 2017 01:49
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Zoro posted:
Can you explain how kicking the budget/debt ceiling to December kills tax reform? I'm genuinely curious.
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Sep 7, 2017 02:02
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You guys can say "it's not a democrat win, just a republican own-goal" but that is kind of ignoring how things work, really. Nancy Pelosi went in to negotiate with Trump and the GOP. You can argue all you want that Trump agreeing is a Republican own-goal, but capitalizing on an opponent's weakness to gain leverage is just...how things work. She went in, had a strategy, took advantage of their weakest member, and got them to agree to a bad position. I'm not saying it was the "perfect, most awesome move ever, ohmygod" and have calmed down a bit, but trying to take it away because their opponent was incompetent...is just being pedantic. If your opponent has a weak spot and you exploit it to take down the people who may be a tougher challenge in one go, that's just a win.
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MooselanderII posted:Can you explain how kicking the budget/debt ceiling to December kills tax reform? I'm genuinely curious. Cutting taxes for the rich while raising them on the middle class is catastrophically unpopular, so Republicans want to get it done in 2017 on the (probably correct) gamble that the American voter's goldfish memory won't retain it by the time midterms roll around next year. Kicking the debt ceiling can down the road to December means that the still-looming debt crisis will probably consume the remaining 2017 legislative calendar because they have to fight with the True Believers in their own party who don't realize that the debt ceiling is only for attacking Democratic presidents and not to be hosed with when Republicans are in charge. That's why Republican leadership wanted to suspend it for 18 months, so they could shove as much horrible poo poo out the door in 2017 before they have to go into midterm campaign mode where they can't be openly evil.
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Sep 7, 2017 02:17
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Peachfart posted:I'm pretty sure everyone is aware that there are problems with the Democrats. But being sulky that a good thing happened simply because the Democrats did it isn't a good look for certain members of this thread. I think it depends how people (positively) discuss stuff like this. There's a difference between saying "yay, thank goodness DACA was protected, etc" and saying "looks like the Democrats are actually awesome and the naysayers were wrong all along." One is celebrating a good thing, the other is using the good thing to attack critics (which is basically what Zoro was doing in his original post). edit: Usually, but not always (see - the Iraq War, and a bunch of other stuff), Democrats can be pretty good at about opposing comically evil things. Their biggest sins are their lack of adequate (sorely needed) positive action and maintenance of harmful/immoral status quo policies (see: the way gay marriage was dealt with until relatively recently). D.N. Nation posted:Nancy Pelosi is therefore terrible and should be replaced by a Midwesterner who is far more leftist and who will also not frighten, um, Republican voters, and this will work because Political views aren't actually viewed like some continuum in the way you're implying. Your average Republican makes zero distinction between someone with politics equivalent to Pelosi's and someone further to the left. There's probably some truth to the idea when it comes to social issues, but economic-focused Republican voters are generally going to consider all Democrats equally "socialist", regardless of what their actual economic views are. Heck, Republican views of Clinton vs. Sanders is a super obvious example of why "a candidate is further to the left, therefore Republicans will dislike them more" isn't remotely true. You're relying on a strange sort of political "common sense" that certainly isn't accurate now and arguably never was. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Sep 7, 2017 |
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Sep 7, 2017 02:27
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So, dems are still a waste right? I read about Harris supporting single payer through gritted teeth and the parodies from Hillary's new book, I'm starting to think both parties are run by clowns.
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Sep 7, 2017 02:38
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Tiberius Christ posted:So, dems are still a waste right? I read about Harris supporting single payer through gritted teeth and the parodies from Hillary's new book, I'm starting to think both parties are run by clowns. Well the former indicates at least something resembling responsiveness, whereas the latter is... hopefully a sign of Hillary's departure for the rest of time.
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Sep 7, 2017 02:44
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VitalSigns posted:Cutting taxes for the rich while raising them on the middle class is catastrophically unpopular, so Republicans want to get it done in 2017 on the (probably correct) gamble that the American voter's goldfish memory won't retain it by the time midterms roll around next year. Is there any indication that these won't simply be kicked down the road again to make way for other legislation? I can certainly appreciate the additional leverage it gives Democrats in December, not that I expect Democrats would allow default or a shut down.
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Sep 7, 2017 03:00
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Tiberius Christ posted:So, dems are still a waste right? I read about Harris supporting single payer through gritted teeth and the parodies from Hillary's new book, I'm starting to think both parties are run by clowns. It's bizarre how you guys will sulk about everything. So progressive pressure got Harris, a front-runner for 2020 Dem candidate, to endorse single payer and this is a bad thing because?
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Sep 7, 2017 03:10
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progressives didnt pressure harris into supporting single-payer by being all optimistic so why would they stop sulking
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Sep 7, 2017 03:22
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shrike82 posted:It's bizarre how you guys will sulk about everything. So progressive pressure got Harris, a front-runner for 2020 Dem candidate, to endorse single payer and this is a bad thing because? Making pleasant noises is easy. Can you blame us for being wary? If her commitment is real and lasts, more power to her and I hope others follow in her footsteps. But Obama also promised the world in his speeches, from a public option and cracking down on Wall Street to closing Guatanamo, and basically shrugged off that persona before he warmed the chair in the oval office. Being skeptical of politicians is a -good- thing. Do you go inside the windowless van of every guy on the street that offers you candy?
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Sep 7, 2017 03:22
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Yup, good job comparing the electorate to a pedo victim.
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Sep 7, 2017 03:25
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Sephyr posted:Making pleasant noises is easy. Can you blame us for being wary? If her commitment is real and lasts, more power to her and I hope others follow in her footsteps. This. She might not have much of a record, but the record she does have throws up alot of red flags that should make the average voter wary of trusting anything she says.
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Sep 7, 2017 03:40
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Do what I do - Sanders (or equivalent in 2020) in the primaries and Trump in the general. I did that last year and have been pretty happy with the results so far. Trump as President disassembling the Dem party is a way better result than Abuela as President.
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Sep 7, 2017 03:42
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California dems couldn't pass a single payer bill even though it had a supermajority, they killed it themselves. I won't trust anything they say until the have a plan that helps all Americans
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Sep 7, 2017 03:51
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shrike82 posted:It's bizarre how you guys will sulk about everything. So progressive pressure got Harris, a front-runner for 2020 Dem candidate, to endorse single payer and this is a bad thing because? She hasn't implemented single payer health care, nor endorsed medicare for all. Take your pick.
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Sep 7, 2017 04:00
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shrike82 posted:It's bizarre how you guys will sulk about everything. So progressive pressure got Harris, a front-runner for 2020 Dem candidate, to endorse single payer and this is a bad thing because? Kamala Harris like prison labor
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Sep 7, 2017 04:05
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not trusting snakes that lie for a living = being "sulky"
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Sep 7, 2017 04:08
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Barbe Rouge posted:not trusting snakes that lie for a living = being "sulky" In the way that you are doing it? kinda.
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Sep 7, 2017 04:15
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One thing that fascinates me about modern politics is that Democrats have completely lost touch with the concept of selling your ideas to people that don't already believe it. It's really weird. Their entire strategy revolves around polling people to see who believes in what, positioning yourself politically (often disingenuously) to align with 51% of the populace (as long said positions don't interfere with donation collection), and then signalling those positions to key constituencies in the hopes that you can energize them enough to vote. Never once does it seem to enter their minds that you can actually reach out to people that don't already agree with you and change their minds. Maybe not all of them, but certainly some of them. And the consequence of this attitude is that only the Republicans (who grasp the concept of selling ideas just fine) are actually changing people's minds. The Democrats can slow their progress and kill their worst ideas but in the end, inch by bloody inch, they win the larger public debate and as a results unions die, the rich get near absolute power, and the Democrats lose everything despite having better ideas and Republicans being transparently garbage human beings. It really is amazing and I'm surprised I haven't heard anyone bring it up yet.
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Sep 7, 2017 04:21
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you're assuming that "unions die, the rich get near absolute power" isn't an outcome that the Dems wnat
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Sep 7, 2017 04:23
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Peachfart posted:In the way that you are doing it? kinda. Of course, I didn't perform the proper obeisances.
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Sep 7, 2017 04:30
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Barbe Rouge posted:Of course, I didn't perform the proper obeisances. 
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Sep 7, 2017 05:13
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MooselanderII posted:Is there any indication that these won't simply be kicked down the road again to make way for other legislation? I can certainly appreciate the additional leverage it gives Democrats in December, not that I expect Democrats would allow default or a shut down. Well I can't predict the future, but here's the problem for Republicans. Republican leadership has two goals here, (a) avoid default by kicking the debt ceiling can down the road, with (b) enough time left to negotiate and pass a very difficult tax cut proposal with their fractured caucus. Democrats only need to do (a). So yes, Ryan knows that House Democrats absolutely will not default on the debt, and he is guaranteed to get a clean debt ceiling suspension from them if he waits them out into December, but then he doesn't have enough time to get the tax cuts done. In order to get Democrats to suspend the debt ceiling earlier like in November to clear the legislative calendar, he'll have to offer them something they want like DACA or Obamacare cost sharing payments or whatever. Theoretically Ryan could also get the suspension any time he wants by getting the Tea Party to vote for it since Republicans have the majority, but the Tea Party has a different goal: to grandstand about the debt ceiling while knowing the establishment will save them from the consequences at the last moment again by going hat in hand to the Democrats for votes, at which point the Tea Partyists can go back to their deep red districts and brag about standing firm while the RINOs betrayed the party to Nancy Pelosi.
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Sep 7, 2017 05:21
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I have to say Daou and the new Verrit platform is some peak Dem wastage. https://twitter.com/thetomzone/status/905628277938819072
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Sep 7, 2017 05:21
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Illinois Democrat Picks Democratic Socialist as Running Mate for Gubernatorial Run
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Sep 7, 2017 06:57
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Looool, because the Socialist supported BDS. Democrats still a waste it seems.
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Sep 7, 2017 07:27
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These are the same people that called Bernie Sanders, a Jewish man, anti-Semitic because he had some tepid criticism of Israel on things.
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Sep 7, 2017 07:36
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Ramirez-Rosa should just run for governor, then.
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Sep 7, 2017 07:37
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Sanders is anti-BDS. I can’t think of a mainstream political figure (and this covers actual progressives like Sanders) that has sane views on Israel.
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Sep 7, 2017 07:40
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remember when people were howling that dnc chair was a full time job so ellison couldn't handle it? https://twitter.com/IsaacDovere/status/905619262290657284 so glad obama installed this empty suit instead of us getting someone good like keith...
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Sep 7, 2017 08:29
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the DNC should just disband
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Sep 7, 2017 08:37
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Sephyr posted:Making pleasant noises is easy. Can you blame us for being wary? If her commitment is real and lasts, more power to her and I hope others follow in her footsteps. The public option was in the ACA and Obama fought to keep it in, but ultimately it was killed by the conservative democrats in Congress because they were afraid they'd lose their seats if they voted for big gubmint socialism. Those conservative dems were subsequently massacred in the midterms by Tea Party Republicans. Starting the shut down of the prison camp at Guantanamo Bay was one of the first things Obama did, but Congress passed legislation barring his attempt to do so. Obama wormed his way around Congress and continued closing the camp over their obstruction, but it was an extremely slow and difficult process which only got slower and more difficult as time went on. His stated goal to have everyone out by the end of his presidency wasn't met, and there were still about 50 people left in there (down from I think 250 when he took office). The office of the President is insanely powerful and it's only continued to accumulate power. Despite this, almost everything presidential candidates run on is solely within the power of Congress and not the President, and Congress has been completely non-functional for the better part of a decade. The president can now unilaterally start a war, but they can't fix health care.
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Sep 7, 2017 10:14
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Kokoro Wish posted:Illinois Democrat Picks Democratic Socialist as Running Mate for Gubernatorial Run It’s happening gif? Ugh never mind
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Sep 7, 2017 12:13
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Maybe I'm not understanding the Debt ceiling deal but Democrats haven't actually got anything out of it right? But are banking on having more leverage in December to get what they want? This really doesn't seem like a good plan.
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Sep 7, 2017 12:46
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axelord posted:Maybe I'm not understanding the Debt ceiling deal but Democrats haven't actually got anything out of it right?
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Sep 7, 2017 12:56
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axelord posted:Maybe I'm not understanding the Debt ceiling deal but Democrats haven't actually got anything out of it right? no, "what they want" is a repeat of forcing the republicans to infight about raising the debt ceiling, the "win" is continued and repeated infighting instead of the calm "lets gently caress everyone else" plan they had for 2017
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Sep 7, 2017 13:21
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