|
General Battuta posted:Nah they have leaders, the Pragma. I thought those were just old trainers.
|
#
?
Sep 6, 2017 17:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 18:34 |
|
|
The Pragma are the bosses more or less. They're the ones who covered up evidence of the outside world and sorcery. Kellhus figures out the Pragma lied to him about magic in the first chapter of the PoN.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2017 00:49
|
|
|
Interesting... how does this relate to any literary qualities the books might possess?
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2017 05:22
|
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:Interesting... how does this relate to any literary qualities the books might possess? It's part of Bakkers argument about the inability of society to adequately generate and apply meaning to the world (the hilariously named "semantic apocalypse"). Every character/group struggled to accurately conceptualise the world, so it's quite a big deal that the cult of the intellectual superman, aiming to free themselves from the chains of superstition and culture, and thoroughly hypocritical and full of poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2017 10:28
|
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:Interesting... how does this relate to any literary qualities the books might possess? Come on dude
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2017 10:47
|
|
|
I think people demanding a tidy ending wrapped in beautiful gift wrap with something on top are missing the nihilism inherent in TSA, in that with fiction we're expecting a little bundle of meaning all worked out, no complications, questions asked and answered, while one of the main arguments Bakker is making is that meaning is an ad-hoc creation that we impose over the world, not something that exists in it. Thus, the lack of answers to some of the questions we ask of the series is inherent in the telling of it. It's frustrating as gently caress, but thematically it works.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2017 12:18
|
|
|
Mukulu posted:The Pragma are the bosses more or less. They're the ones who covered up evidence of the outside world and sorcery. Kellhus figures out the Pragma lied to him about magic in the first chapter of the PoN. P sure even they don't know about magic The original founders burnt all the records so they just all collectively forgot
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2017 12:40
|
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:Interesting... how does this relate to any literary qualities the books might possess? 
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2017 12:42
|
|
|
Strom Cuzewon posted:It's part of Bakkers argument about the inability of society to adequately generate and apply meaning to the world (the hilariously named "semantic apocalypse"). Every character/group struggled to accurately conceptualise the world, so it's quite a big deal that the cult of the intellectual superman, aiming to free themselves from the chains of superstition and culture, and thoroughly hypocritical and full of poo poo. A society having leaders is not a profound statement.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2017 13:28
|
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:A society having leaders is not a profound statement. True. But to take one piece out of the story and reduce it to "a society has leaders" is asinine
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2017 14:32
|
|
|
Strom Cuzewon posted:True. But to take one piece out of the story and reduce it to "a society has leaders" is asinine The profound story you're talking about is that a monastic order is wrong and can't provide the ultimate truth. This was already a truism by the Middle Ages. Somewhat more recently Umberto Eco wrote a book about the topic, then another book also about the nature of meaning, starring a masterful liar on a quest for truth. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Sep 7, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2017 15:31
|
|
|
So we can agree it's it's a good and worthy subject for literature?
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2017 16:08
|
|
|
Strom Cuzewon posted:So we can agree it's it's a good and worthy subject for literature? Yes, that is something that R. Scott Bakker does not write.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2017 16:29
|
|
|
Do you actually have a point or is this just more drive by shitposting?
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2017 16:38
|
|
|
The Name of the Rose is a good book about medieval philosophers and the death of meaning. I particularly liked the part where the elderly investigator castigated an authority figure for his self-righteous paternalism. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Sep 7, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2017 16:49
|
|
|
gently caress, Name of the Rose is a good book. Funny, biting, deep, romantic and grim in turns, and that's not even counting the murder mystery. One of those that get better with each reading. Not saying that "Bluh, it was all for nothing and your leaders are golden idols who have a bit more of the real picture than you but not enough to save anyone" is not a worthwhile topic, but if that is even Bakker's goal, he sure went about it in a disjointed, unclear, uninspiring way that is, for many, ultimately frustrating.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2017 17:33
|
|
|
The segond abogalibs  DD
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2017 17:52
|
|
|
Aren't most people here approaching Bakker and his works like a trainwreck of bad stuff? We're sifting through the wreckage for meaning, not analyzing the accident against larger tragedies.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2017 19:26
|
|
|
papa horny michael posted:Aren't most people here approaching Bakker and his works like a trainwreck of bad stuff? We're sifting through the wreckage for meaning, not analyzing the accident against larger tragedies. I don't really think so, but I can't speak for others. Personally, I see it as a seed idea that had a lot of promise (there's a reason even people who dislike Frank Herbert's latter book usually make an exception for God-Emperor of Dune; the interplay between the posthuman and the human over the reins of humanity's fate is just really compelling stuff), but that grew less and less appealing to a lot of readers as 1-characters became hollowed out, 2-the tone started straying from grimdark to overt edgelord, 3-Themes and conclusions became muddled and frustrating. That said, I found at least some things to enjoy even in books I thought were crap. Hell, Achamian and Cleric battling a grumpy dragon was just epic in the best sense of the word, likely the best such encounter I have ever read, even if the rest of that book pretty much just leaked out of my ear and into a drain. I just wish there'd been more of those times, and that they had amounted to...well, anything.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2017 19:48
|
|
|
I think the thing I hate the most is when he breaks up a character's speech into single sentences (or even clauses) interspersed with tons of backstory or internal monologue from another POV.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2017 20:11
|
|
|
papa horny michael posted:Aren't most people here approaching Bakker and his works like a trainwreck of bad stuff? We're sifting through the wreckage for meaning, not analyzing the accident against larger tragedies. It's a poo poo show, but it's hilarious. That's what makes it appealing to me.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2017 01:13
|
|
|
Phanatic posted:I think the thing I hate the most is when he breaks up a character's speech into single sentences (or even clauses) interspersed with tons of backstory or internal monologue from another POV. I hate his prose because it's bad, like a grimdark Guy Gavriel Kay.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2017 16:24
|
|
|
We know.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2017 17:59
|
|
|
BravestOfTheLamps posted:I hate his prose because it's bad, like a grimdark Guy Gavriel Kay. You talking about his prose is infinitely worse reading material than his prose.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2017 21:07
|
|
|
Loved this series until the last book and I rage quit about 25% in after deciding to do some "peeking" into the spoilers. Don't get me wrong, I was quite pleased with the ending, but I no longer give a poo poo about anyone anymore and I hope the No God wipes every one out in the 3rd set of books! This is the only book I have ever RAGE QUIT. WOw...I have to say, that is impressive. Pleiades fucked around with this message at 10:08 on Sep 23, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 23, 2017 10:01
|
|
|
Yea...it's usually not a good sign when you can grab a book on Amazon Kindle for $2. Some thoughts on the Unholy Consult (I have no idea why we're spoilering everything, so obviously massive spoilers below) -What the gently caress was the point of the Great Ordeal at all? Kellhus seemed personally powerful enough to trash the Consult army all by himself and none of the actual resolution required him to actually bring anyone into the heart of the spaceship. There seemed to be something going on with the massive Gay Cannibal Orgy (in which strangely all the witches disappeared, you'd think some guys would try to hit on them in this sort of thing) damning all the men. Was this part of the poorly explained Demon Head Bullshit? -Everything except the confrontation in the starship was pointless in the end sequence. Sure, it was cool that Serwa was battling the ancient dragon who sounded like he escaped a Men's Rights Reddit convention, but in the end it achieved nothing except wasting our time between cuts to Kellhus in the starship. -Every time you read "Death came swirling down", drink -The reveal about the Inchoroi kinda makes sense with them and the Sranc being controlled by the weird sex stuff, but what exactly does the Ark AI want? Is it dead, or did it get co-opted by Sil? -Well Mimara's judging eye amounted to nothing Yeah kinda done caring about this series for a while...
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 04:38
|
|
|
The Great Ordeal was basically the meat shield for the spellcasters. A lot of work for so few of them to make it and even those not amount to much, but yeah, there you have it. I also thought it was weird that the casters in general vanished during the Hardcore stuff, but I was already past caring, to be honest. They can defend themselves from the predations of others, sure, but you'd think their powers going out of control with depravity would have been a thing. And yeah, it was sad that Serwa's battling of Sargon the Dragon was pointless.But the again, so was Achamian and Cleric battling the other Wracu. And Proyas. And Esmenet. And all of the Momemn arc. And.... At this point, I think the 'death swirling down' thing is deliberate. Like saying 'hella' in the Life is Strange games. First time was real, people talked about it, and they went with it. As for what the Inchoroi AI wants, it's really left in the dark. Maybe it was programmed to help pursue the universal pogrom, maybe it wants something else. Since Bakker needs to fill three more books, it's likely a Matrix centered around rape simulations. Idle thought: If the goal was to just depopulate the planet, wouldn't having them fleshcraft a killer plague that this medieval, lovely world could never hope to cure WAY easier than breeding rape goblins, dragons and such? Infect a few sailor, wait ten years, give yourself a vaccine and just take over the empty cities! They had a goddamn laser cannon, you can't tell me they couldn't have come up with smallpox.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 06:13
|
|
|
Sephyr posted:Idle thought: If the goal was to just depopulate the planet, wouldn't having them fleshcraft a killer plague that this medieval, lovely world could never hope to cure WAY easier than breeding rape goblins, dragons and such? Infect a few sailor, wait ten years, give yourself a vaccine and just take over the empty cities! They had a goddamn laser cannon, you can't tell me they couldn't have come up with smallpox. Same reason the ring wasn't dropped in a Volcano by eagles I would say.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 06:20
|
|
|
Cardiac posted:Same reason the ring wasn't dropped in a Volcano by eagles I would say. The ring wasn't dropped into the volcano by the Eagles because Sauron would have felt the touch of the Maiar, as they were servants of his boss' brother Manwé, the moment they entered Mordor as long as Sauron's will was still alive and intact. They would have been torn apart by ringwraiths and their mounts and basically delivered the ring directly into Sauron's doorstep. Yeah, I've seen the joke videos. They're funny. But it's not a real plot hole.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 06:26
|
|
|
Sephyr posted:Idle thought: If the goal was to just depopulate the planet, wouldn't having them fleshcraft a killer plague that this medieval, lovely world could never hope to cure WAY easier than breeding rape goblins, dragons and such? Infect a few sailor, wait ten years, give yourself a vaccine and just take over the empty cities! They had a goddamn laser cannon, you can't tell me they couldn't have come up with smallpox. There was some vague bullshit where Kellhus asked why they couldn't use more nukes, the Dunyain claim that they could only get one to work and it was "too indiscriminate" (wtf?) and no what we really need is the no-god. I was under the impression the surviving Inchoroi didn't understand their technology very well. Also for all the buildup of the Inverse Fire it was a super letdown. Cool name though.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 06:37
|
|
|
Sephyr posted:The ring wasn't dropped into the volcano by the Eagles because Sauron would have felt the touch of the Maiar, as they were servants of his boss' brother Manwé, the moment they entered Mordor as long as Sauron's will was still alive and intact. They would have been torn apart by ringwraiths and their mounts and basically delivered the ring directly into Sauron's doorstep. Ehm, plot device anyone? Best part of nerds is how everything has to be explained instead of just accepting that stuff happens because the author wants it that way. Also considering Gandalf, Radagast and Saruman are all the same creatures as Sauron (who got his rear end handed to him by a dog btw) I still consider it a plothole.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 06:49
|
|
|
Cardiac posted:Ehm, plot device anyone? True enough, but some stuff is better structured than other stuff. Also, not all Maiar are created equal. Balrogs were also on the same 'level' as Gandalf, but they could not hold a candle to Sauron himself. And it was implied that he had come into greater power by being more a part of the world than Morgoth once his boss was defeated and chained in the Negative Zone. Now, if we really want to talk Tolkien plot holes, we should be talking about lembas waybread. How do elves even make an oven to bake it if they live in trees? loving disgraceful oversight, I tells yah.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 07:12
|
|
|
TheGreatEvilKing posted:There was some vague bullshit where Kellhus asked why they couldn't use more nukes, the Dunyain claim that they could only get one to work and it was "too indiscriminate" (wtf?) and no what we really need is the no-god. There's also a bit about a code imprinted on all life, and people need to be murdered in the right way to allow this code to be read. So essentially they want to pulp humanity and sequence their genome to, I assume, find the genetic marker of damnation. But after TUC I feel like Bakkers just throwing stuff at the wall.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2017 10:07
|
|
|
I dunno, the ending of TUC felt a bit like Deus ex machina to me
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2017 09:57
|
|
|
Take the plunge! Okay! posted:I dunno, the ending of TUC felt a bit like Deus ex machina to me Well, the Nogod did it so?
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2017 11:03
|
|
|
"Yea...it's usually not a good sign when you can grab a book on Amazon Kindle for $2." When I saw that, I was so damned happy! I considered it a STEAL considering that it came out like late July or something. When something is too good to be true... Then again, if I spent even more money, I would have burst into flames. But, at least Bakker can make gay cannibalism sound beautiful. Pleiades fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Sep 30, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2017 19:50
|
|
|
I strongly agree that this book needed a shitton more editing and time in the oven, but it was spelled out in big unmistakable neon block letters that the Inchoroi were engineered shock troopers on the ship and that both the actual crew and the AI have been dead since Arkfall, with Sil being the only one among them who kinda-sorta understood the tech enough to get things working again. They've been trying for centuries to reboot their AI core by shoving humans into it, and following the extermination of everyone except A&A they had zero ability to use their technology at all. It's like asking why two shipwrecked marines, one reduced to a drooling idiot, can't just fix up some nukes and fire them off. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2017 20:14
|
|
|
Take the plunge! Okay! posted:I dunno, the ending of TUC felt a bit like Deus ex machina to me It's literally a (no)-deus ex machina lmao there's a god that floats out of a big rear end machine
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2017 20:17
|
|
|
Rime posted:I strongly agree that this book needed a shitton more editing and time in the oven, but it was spelled out in big unmistakable neon block letters that the Inchoroi were engineered shock troopers on the ship and that both the actual crew and the AI have been dead since Arkfall, with Sil being the only one among them who kinda-sorta understood the tech enough to get things working again. They've been trying for centuries to reboot their AI core by shoving humans into it, and following the extermination of everyone except A&A they had zero ability to use their technology at all. It's like asking why two shipwrecked marines, one reduced to a drooling idiot, can't just fix up some nukes and fire them off. They were able to engineer Sranc, Wracu, skin-spies (these very recently) and other nifty stuff...so, um, no.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2017 21:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 18:34 |
|
|
Sephyr posted:They were able to engineer Sranc, Wracu, skin-spies (these very recently) and other nifty stuff...so, um, no. Fairly certain it's a Morgoth situation where and they cannot create life but only twist what already is. See the sranc and their nonman faces. Not too mention they were bred 8000 years ago when the Inchoroi had a better grasp of the Tekne.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2017 01:01
|
|
