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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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77 | 25.50% |
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160 | 52.98% |
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65 | 21.52% |
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Majorian posted:I honestly don't know if it's actually in the book or not, but it's certainly true in spirit. I always thought that joke was her throwing the first thing she thought of out there based a thing she heard The Kids were into but obviously knew nothing about. If that quote is real then it means she either put work into it OR she felt the need to retroactively defend it by saying she had. Either way it's  and I just can't believe there's a person that out of touch. I just can't believe it so I need to see that confirmed.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:18
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Lightning Knight posted:I just disagree with the notion that building a color blind class consciousness that stays silent on race or gender to avoid harming white fragility is a good or noble outcome to look forward too.  It always descends into condescending poo poo like this. Recognizing the role of racism in class is an important part of building class consciousness in white people.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:18
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Majorian posted:Pssst - I have Asperger's. I've been pretty open about this in the past. I really don't care about your level of self-loathing and internalized acceptance of casual bigotry from Internet culture, to be quite honest.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:18
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Lightning Knight posted:Build a time machine and tell Republicans in 1865 to execute every Confederate? Don't do this, while racism is more blatant in the South, it is pervasive across the entire USA. And always has been.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:19
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William Contraalto posted:Demanding that other people give you a ready-made solution is a sign you are unwilling to consider their ideas but unwilling to be rude enough to tell them directly.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:19
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Jizz Festival posted:
You're one to talk about condescension. "Recognizing the role of racism in class" is some weak poo poo, the entire modern economic order of capitalism is built on slavery and colonial genocide. It's not "a role," it's the foundations.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:20
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William Contraalto posted:I really don't care about your level of self-loathing and internalized acceptance of casual bigotry from Internet culture, to be quite honest. Hahaha, okay, I'll keep taking you 100% seriously, you silly overheated goofball you.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:20
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Peachfart posted:Don't do this, while racism is more blatant in the South, it is pervasive across the entire USA. And always has been. I mistakenly believed involving time travel would signal that it is not a serious answer. 
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Sep 8, 2017 18:21
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Lightning Knight posted:Well, if you want my honest opinion, I think we're doomed because of global warming, because even in this thread we pretend like that isn't the literal most important thing in politics period because it's an existential crisis. Well then why post. Seriously if nothing matters. And we're all going to die why post and rain on people trying to find solutions?
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Sep 8, 2017 18:22
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Lightning Knight posted:Build a time machine and tell Republicans in 1865 to execute every Confederate? I agree with you about global warming, but that's not a thing we can fix with the current administration in office. We have to ignore it because it isn't in our power to fix. twodot posted:What? Some people in this thread want to do a thing, other people think it is bad or at best neutral. Asking the people who don't want to do the thing, what thing they think we should do instead is completely reasonable.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:22
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twodot posted:What? Some people in this thread want to do a thing, other people think it is bad or at best neutral. Asking the people who don't want to do the thing, what thing they think we should do instead is completely reasonable. This. making GBS threads on a broad outline of a plan (for some pretty spurious reasons), while not offering up one of your own, is the textbook definition of concern trolling.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:23
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twodot posted:What? Some people in this thread want to do a thing, other people think it is bad or at best neutral. Asking the people who don't want to do the thing, what thing they think we should do instead is completely reasonable. Before I can read this post I need you to provide a general solution to the n-body problem.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:23
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Skyscraper posted:Working on it, but I can't even afford a regular Delorean. Which is hilarious, given how poo poo they actually are as cars.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:24
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Jizz Festival posted:And white supremacy ends when white workers stand in solidarity with their class, rather than their race. The obvious way forward is class struggle and class consciousness. Do you have a different idea? Basically, by addressing some of the factors that nurture racism, you're inevitably going to make some racists better off. That's a bitter pill to swallow. Personally I'd rather punish racist white bigots, but as satisfying as that would be it's not going to make things better.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:25
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William Contraalto posted:Before I can read this post I need you to provide a general solution to the n-body problem. Majorian posted:Which is hilarious, given how poo poo they actually are as cars.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:25
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Skyscraper posted:Working on it, but I can't even afford a regular Delorean. In the meantime, "I don't have solutions but yours isn't ideal" or otherwise "it's not the job of black people to come up with solutions" (sorry if I mischaracterized what you specifically are saying here) isn't going to work. I mean I think it's worth pointing that I don't think I meaningfully disagree politically with the thread. I just am sympathic to a lot of the voices online and in the media of black people and other minority groups questioning how they can trust a color blind movement extolling the New Deal when the New Deal was built on racism and exclusion. I am happy to see Bernie and others in his mold articulating positions on social issues, and what I want to see is leftists pushing forward minority leftists to represent the movement. Such as Nina Turner, or Keith Ellison. I want to see an international minded, forward looking leftism that minorities can feel safe supporting. These the issues that matter to me as far as domestic progressivism goes. But unfortunately we're in the midst of a nationalist populist wave, and these kinds of positions aren't popular at the moment. I understand why we ignore global warming. I just thinks that means we're doomed. 
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Sep 8, 2017 18:26
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Skyscraper posted:Go post in the n-body problem thread then. Why do you believe that answers must be handed down to you from above? Why not try to develop a solution on your own, or contribute thoughts to a group effort to do so? I'm curious.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:26
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Skyscraper posted:I know this is true and it hurts. It's okay, one doesn't buy a DeLorean to drive it.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:27
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William Contraalto posted:Before I can read this post I need you to provide a general solution to the n-body problem.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:28
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Lightning Knight posted:Your grasp of the level of influence white supremacy has had on the history of United States economics, a nation built by slaves on the corpses of Native Americans, where we fought a devastating civil war just to end slavery in only the most technical sense and continue to this day to use and abuse black people, is frankly insulting. Your willingness to downplay the incredible inequality of the New Deal for minorities is hilarious - what is "redlining," again? Posting MLK quotes like they're the end of an argument while absolving white people for electing an orange rodeo clown on the promise of "gently caress minorities" is asinine. Also, my point is not that racism didn't exist, quite the opposite and that social security itself was racially constructed but the only way forward is to build federal programs rather than tearing them down quite acknowledging the exclusionary history of those programs. How is destroying our remaining social programs going to actually help non-whites? How do you push leftist economics forward that address race specifically? Are programs that are generally class based inherently destructive? twodot posted:This is important and Coates talked about it: There was a massive amount of white privilege around that campaign but minorities didn't necessarily break for Trump, but he was (somehow) despite all of his racist rhetoric able to get more minorities for vote for him than Romney. I don't think those people necessarily lost their mind, but that his focus on trade ultimately appealed to them despite all the horrible poo poo he was saying, some of them switched sides. Ultimately, the vast majority of minorities obviously voted against him for good reason, but the lesson that should be taken isn't that Trump and most of his supporters aren't racist. they are, but trade had a strong pull in this country toward a different trade policy and may be the reason he won.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:28
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William Contraalto posted:Why do you believe that answers must be handed down to you from above? Why not try to develop a solution on your own, or contribute thoughts to a group effort to do so? I'm curious. I already explained this: Majorian posted:making GBS threads on a broad outline of a plan (for some pretty spurious reasons), while not offering up one of your own, is the textbook definition of concern trolling.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:28
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Lightning Knight posted:This is the thing that frustrates me about the current narrative of the rise of neoliberalism in the '70s and '80s. Those politicians, Nixon, Reagan, Clinton - people voted for them. And the big reason regular people voted for them was not trickle down economics, it was opposition to desegregation - the Southern Strategy. Trickle-down economics was the way Reagan packaged neoliberalism for voters, but the enthusiasm came from his opposition to busing, to desegregating neighborhoods, and for "state's rights." No, it didn't. This was part of it but the enthusiasm came from jingoism fueled by the Cold War and the fact that capitalism was not obviously failing (a big part of neoliberalism is "the status quo but you get to keep more of your money" and when things are functioning this is an effective pitch).
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Sep 8, 2017 18:29
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:No, it didn't. This was part of it but the enthusiasm came from jingoism fueled by the Cold War and the fact that capitalism was not obviously failing (a big part of neoliberalism is "the status quo but you get to keep more of your money" and when things are functioning this is an effective pitch). Indeed, and it stood in stark relief with the (unfair) public perception of Carter as a gloomy burnt-out hippie who was afflicted with the very malaise that he famously cited.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:32
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Ardennes posted:Also, my point is not that racism didn't exist, quite the opposite and that social security itself was racially constructed but the only way forward is to build federal programs rather than tearing them down quite acknowledging the exclusionary history of those programs. How is destroying our remaining social programs going to actually help non-whites? I didn't say we should dismantle the social structures. I just think you need to understand that waxing nostalgic for the New Deal and the industrial period reads differently to people who were excluded by those programs and prosperity. Leftism should look forward, not wallow in the past. How do you feel about reparations? Megaman's Jockstrap posted:No, it didn't. This was part of it but the enthusiasm came from jingoism fueled by the Cold War and the fact that capitalism was not obviously failing (a big part of neoliberalism is "the status quo but you get to keep more of your money" and when things are functioning this is an effective pitch). I really don't agree with this in these terms, insofar as I think reaction and backlash to desegregation mattered more. Nixon did notably benefit from the Vietnam potatoe landing in a Democrat's hands, though.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:33
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Lightning Knight posted:I mean I think it's worth pointing that I don't think I meaningfully disagree politically with the thread. I just am sympathic to a lot of the voices online and in the media of black people and other minority groups questioning how they can trust a color blind movement extolling the New Deal when the New Deal was built on racism and exclusion. William Contraalto posted:Why do you believe that answers must be handed down to you from above? Why not try to develop a solution on your own, or contribute thoughts to a group effort to do so? I'm curious. Jizz Festival posted:And white supremacy ends when white workers stand in solidarity with their class, rather than their race. The obvious way forward is class struggle and class consciousness. Do you have a different idea? William Contraalto posted:The whole loving point of the loving Coates piece is that racism stands in the way of class consciousness! Can you at least read it before puking slogans out?
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Sep 8, 2017 18:34
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I just want targets to hammer. How can these issues inform target-selection and strategy/tactics? Edit: This is only half rhetorical. Statements like -- quote:[nostalgia] for the New Deal and the industrial period reads differently to people who were excluded The typical in-group interpretation is, "Giant rear end Government Program For Public Benefit." This isn't to say it's a possible messaging issue, though. Accretionist fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Sep 8, 2017 |
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Sep 8, 2017 18:37
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Lightning Knight posted:I didn't say we should dismantle the social structures. I just think you need to understand that waxing nostalgic for the New Deal and the industrial period reads differently to people who were excluded by those programs and prosperity. Leftism should look forward, not wallow in the past. When we trot out the examples of the New Deal or the Great Society, it's in response to right-wingers and centrists saying, "Well, you can't demonstrate that it would actually WORK. It hasn't been done successfully in American history!  " I don't think very many folks on the left are really fetishizing the New Deal era.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:38
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Majorian posted:When we trot out the examples of the New Deal or the Great Society, it's in response to right-wingers and centrists saying, "Well, you can't demonstrate that it would actually WORK. It hasn't been done successfully in American history! I'm fine with it as a strategic choice, but I don't agree insofar as I think that a lot of people really are suffering from the same nostalgia the right has for the industrial '50s. People on the left remember the nominal union representation and stable jobs, people on the right remember how that stuff was mostly only for white people. Not necessarily in this thread, but in general in political discourse, the New Deal is a lot of people's reference point for "leftist policy," which is kind of sad when you think about it.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:43
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Lightning Knight posted:I really don't agree with this in these terms, insofar as I think reaction and backlash to desegregation mattered more. Were you actually alive in the 80s? Is it in your living memory? I was a teenager and I can assure you that few people gave a poo poo about sticking it to blacks when Ivan had 2k nukes pointed at the heartland.. I don't think millennials can appreciate how much of the decade was a hedonistic, jingoistic response (and posturing) to the prospect of being annihilated by Russian nukes.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:43
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Lightning Knight posted:You're one to talk about condescension. I'm rolling my eyes because the whole point of class consciousness is to create solidarity between the exploited people of the world, which means, yes, facing that exploitation and its history and not flinching because it makes white people look bad. I'm rolling my eyes because there's no real conflict between us except that I'm not wording things the right way or something, and so I get accused of wanting to be silent about racism to protect white fragility. These conversations become a total minefield and no solutions are ever offered.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:43
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Were you actually alive in the 80s? Is it in your living memory? I was a teenager and I can assure you that few people gave a poo poo about sticking it to blacks when Ivan had 2k nukes pointed at the heartland.. I don't think millennials can appreciate how much of the decade was a hedonistic, jingoistic response (and posturing) to the prospect of being annihilated by Russian nukes. No I'm not, but my father canvassed for Reagan and his experience as a Mexican immigrant informs a lot of my understanding of that moment. I'll concede to your personal experience though.  Jizz Festival posted:I'm rolling my eyes because the whole point of class consciousness is to create solidarity between the exploited people of the world, which means, yes, facing that exploitation and its history and not flinching because it makes white people look bad. I'm rolling my eyes because there's no real conflict between us except that I'm not wording things the right way or something, and so I get accused of wanting to be silent about racism to protect white fragility. These conversations become a total minefield and no solutions are ever offered. You're probably right. I'm not even arguing with you anymore, I'm arguing with a broader argument that pops up across the internet. I'm sorry.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:46
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shrike82 posted:Anyway seeing the usual suspects poo poo on TNC over the past couple days is kinda hilarious. gently caress TNC and his idea that we should of just shrug and let the Nazis kill us I ain't going down without a fight 
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Sep 8, 2017 18:47
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Lightning Knight posted:No I'm not, but my father canvassed for Reagan and his experience as a Mexican immigrant informs a lot of my understanding of that moment. See I've got no response to that. I'm squarely a middle class white guy. So I concede to your experience as well. What I remember most was that people hated weak people. Hippie-punching was huge, people who needed assistance were hated, etc.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:48
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Lightning Knight posted:I didn't say we should dismantle the social structures. I just think you need to understand that waxing nostalgic for the New Deal and the industrial period reads differently to people who were excluded by those programs and prosperity. Leftism should look forward, not wallow in the past. I see the Great Society and New Deal as separate things btw. My point was if anything social security was implemented in a racist manner during the 1930s, but that the federal government was forced over time by the 1960s to cut back on the discrimination. If it was done once, it can be attempted again even if there were plenty of racism involved to this day in every element of American society. Also, my other point was that the White elite made sure to trash as many of those programs as possible because they actually did help non-whites. Nixon killed public housing in this country in a large part because many black people now had a chance at some type of housing, he also rolled back other protections against the exclusion of blacks in white suburbs. As far as reparations, I am open to them on a moral ground, black people especially have been hosed by this country. On a functional ground, I have a hard time not seeing it being used to justify white supremacism especially now, but that is largely in part because things have gotten even worse. In all honesty, I think we are on the road of an eventual racial (white) right authoritarian state when whites become a minority and gerrymandering isn't enough anymore. That said, it is also why something has to be attempted because I honestly don't think there is much time left, and so the question because how do you address race and class in a country like the US of 2017. If you ignore race, you are essentially giving it a pass, and if you ignore class, you are missing the engine that is driving much of the dysfunction of this country. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Sep 8, 2017 |
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Sep 8, 2017 18:49
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:See I've got no response to that. I'm squarely a middle class white guy. So I concede to your experience as well. That's how my dad was for the longest time. He hated everyone, especially black people and Asian people. He didn't specifically oppose desegregation, but to him Reagan's message essentially was "time for the black people to be quiet and for your taxes to go down." Ardennes posted:I see the Great Society and New Deal as separate things btw. My point was if anything social security was implemented in a racist manner during the 1930s, but that the federal government was forced over time by the 1960s to cut back on the discrimination. If it was done once, it can be attempted again even if there were plenty of racism involved to this day in every element of American society. Also, my other point was that the White elite made sure to trash as many of those programs as possible because they actually did help non-whites. Nixon killed public housing in this country in a large part because many black people now had a chance at some type of housing, he also rolled back other protections against the exclusion of blacks in white suburbs. I'm cool with this reading.
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Sep 8, 2017 18:54
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Skyscraper posted:They're right, but it looks like it's all we have right now. If your takeaway is that TNC is saying victory/meaningful change is impossible, isn't that based on the assumption of racism being invulnerable? I mean, I think it's worth pointing out that there are a lot of people who have offered answers to this problem and that for all your whining about "concern trolling", there's still conversations going on with or without you. You could even involve yourself in them!
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Sep 8, 2017 18:56
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Lightning Knight posted:I'm fine with it as a strategic choice, but I don't agree insofar as I think that a lot of people really are suffering from the same nostalgia the right has for the industrial '50s. People on the left remember the nominal union representation and stable jobs, people on the right remember how that stuff was mostly only for white people. Not necessarily in this thread, but in general in political discourse, the New Deal is a lot of people's reference point for "leftist policy," which is kind of sad when you think about it. Are most people who aren't already hardened Republicans really going to think that deeply into it, though? I doubt it. I think that if someone makes the pitch to them effectively, they'll think, "Hey, greater union representation, better wages, more job stability, and health care? That sounds awesome!" Most people tend to care first and foremost about what affects them and their families directly. The abstract bogeyman of "undeserving non-whites getting mah welfare!" probably isn't going to eclipse the very real, tangible gains that will be promised to them. e: That's not to say a few assholes won't take their ball and go home; of course some will. But the working class in general probably isn't going to be dissuaded by "undeserving types" benefiting as well. Majorian fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Sep 8, 2017 |
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Sep 8, 2017 18:58
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"People care about their material conditions more than loving over their PoC neighbors" is basically a tenet of the Left. The second half, of course, is that the Right frames it as "your PoC neighbors are improving their material conditions by loving you over" which is why I personally feel we need to focus on the fact that...that just isn't true.
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Sep 8, 2017 19:00
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Majorian posted:Are most people who aren't already hardened Republicans really going to think that deeply into it, though? I doubt it. I think that if someone makes the pitch to them effectively, they'll think, "Hey, greater union representation, better wages, more job stability, and health care? That sounds awesome!" Most people tend to care first and foremost about what affects them and their families directly. The abstract bogeyman of "undeserving non-whites getting mah welfare!" probably isn't going to eclipse the very real, tangible gains that will be promised to them. Possibly, but we also live in a materially different world than we did back then. If I were a senior Democratic strategist I'd have a big whiteboard with "hire people to build clean power infrastructure" at the top for 2020, for the purposes you're describing.
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Sep 8, 2017 19:00
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That assumes that people have objective perspectives of their class situation, which seems unlikely given how many people understand themselves as "middle class". If white people instead focus on their relative position, then greater egalitarianism diminishes their position because the floor has been raised and they are now closer to the bottom.
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Sep 8, 2017 19:01
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