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Koramei posted:That's a pretty huge mischaracterization of the history (this comment extends to 90% of the "it's ahistorical" comments I've been seeing in these threads since MoH, incidentally), China had vested interests in Southeast Asia for centuries and some of the wars fought between it and the Dutch and Portuguese were directly related to them- and those that weren't are hard to model, since colonialism in this game is completely hosed in general and none of it happens in a remotely historical way anyway (which I would love to see changed, but I'm not sure it's ever gonna happen). The Chinese interaction sphere being wholly through doom wars where they send 200,000 men at you to defend the integral Chinese territory of Zanzibar is also clearly stupid, but at the root of it I still really like that it's a country mechanic that forces neighbor interaction (like the HRE), and while having parts of that interaction in ways other than wars would be nice, EU4 generally doesn't do a whole lot other than wars. Having to contend with China while you're uniting Borneo might not be entirely historical but it's more interesting than just getting to eat free land whichever way you turn, and East and Southeast Asia are very distinct from the rest of the world now, which is something I really wanna see more of, not less.
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Sep 8, 2017 19:47
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What about something sorta in between for tributaries- I think the threat of war is important; the mechanic wouldn't have any teeth otherwise unless you were trying to become emperor yourself. But I agree it's annoying it's all the time. So what if China could join in to defend their tributary, but only after certain conditions have been fulfilled? E.g. there's a meter that ticks up when you declare war on a tributary, that goes up every month (maybe faster if the war is closer to China), with a hit after a major battle, when there's serious devastation, and so on? You could have the meter last between wars too, so while you could carve off that annoying OPM, you couldn't string wars against 3 of them back to back without consequences. e: come to think of it, I guess you could just do something like this with AE. just give someone really high AE with China whenever they eat one of its tributaries. A Buttery Pastry posted:It's really just going back to the old EU problem of excessive force projection. Both the Portuguese and the Dutch got their asses handed to them when they tried to tangle with China directly, but China was unable to stop either from running wild on their tributaries. That said, since China's ability to actually defend its tributaries seems to have been pretty limited, the more historical options seems to be to not have a call to arms for China when its tributaries are attacked - because a call to arms means a doom war in EU4. Or maybe limit it to tributaries that actually border China's capital region. I agree force projection is the big problem, for this and many other issues. I don't think it's ever gonna get fixed though, it seems like it's gotta be a gargantuan task to program it, plus so much of the community is into the world conquest side of things that there'd be outrage if that was limited so much. Plus it gimps the AI hard. Koramei fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Sep 8, 2017 |
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Sep 8, 2017 20:09
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Regarding Ming and its current state, broken as it may be, if you wanted to actually play as Ming for an OP game, maybe a world conquest attempt, what would the starting strategy be? Obviously you need lots of tributaries, but do you tributary literally everything and sit on your hands until reforms are over, maybe colonizing along the way, or do you leave yourself non-tributary paths for expansion while you are still trying to power through the celestial reforms? Additionally, do tributaries count as vassals for world conquest? I can only seem to find speculation about that.
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Sep 8, 2017 20:38
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Eldred posted:Speaking of trade companies, what's everyone's take on them vs. keeping those provinces as territories or states? I get that state maintenance ramps up based on distance from the capital so you don't want to state provinces in say, Indonesia but I'm wondering everyone's thoughts on when it's worthwhile to make a province part of a trade company. As an European colonizer? Click the add province to trade company button as soon as you send a colonist, without thinking twice. Trade is what you want overseas, and no cultural/religious unrest is great. If you're a small African or Asian power with low development (say Ethiopia) and/or no trade power in key nodes downstream though, I could see holding onto the extra land, especially if high dev or producing gold
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Sep 8, 2017 21:37
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Eldred posted:Speaking of trade companies, what's everyone's take on them vs. keeping those provinces as territories or states? I get that state maintenance ramps up based on distance from the capital so you don't want to state provinces in say, Indonesia but I'm wondering everyone's thoughts on when it's worthwhile to make a province part of a trade company. Hold on to them for the 6-8 months it takes to convert them, then add to trade company always.
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Sep 8, 2017 21:48
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:Hold on to them for the 6-8 months it takes to convert them, then add to trade company always. What is the benefit of religious conversion in this scenario?
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Sep 8, 2017 21:51
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Even lower unrest, right? Trade companies negate religious tolerance penalties, but still won't get you the full tolerance that true faith would. Personally I never bother to convert them but it's probably worth doing, unless you're wanting to game the institution spread or something.
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Sep 8, 2017 22:54
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What if tributaries being attacked just forced Ming to send in an Condotierre army? That way you're not facing the whole might of China, and it ends up being a significant amount of protection for small countries. Hell, you could then have Ming interfere in some wars between tributaries since it's no longer such a huge deal.
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Sep 8, 2017 23:04
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AnoHito posted:I would still definitely consider turning off MoH because having to wait it out like that for every single minor war in the region sounds like hell. That's only true if you try to do one and then the other instead of both at the same time, or if you go for excessive war score with Ming. White Peace with Ming via blockades (which are way more effective than you may think) won't take much longer than sieging down the forts in the region that you want to take anyway (in my experience; I guess if it's 1700 and you're facing level 2 forts then you'll probably just wreck things, I'm talking early game) Koramei posted:Even lower unrest, right? Trade companies negate religious tolerance penalties, but still won't get you the full tolerance that true faith would. According to the wiki trade company provinces don't contribute to religious unity so you don't even get that benefit from converting it. Or seemingly any benefit, unless you're going for like The Third Way achievement
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Sep 8, 2017 23:41
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aqu posted:What is the benefit of religious conversion in this scenario? Unrest reduction.
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Sep 8, 2017 23:53
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QuarkJets posted:According to the wiki trade company provinces don't contribute to religious unity so you don't even get that benefit from converting it. Or seemingly any benefit, unless you're going for like The Third Way achievement Not religious unity, tolerance of the true faith. (I think) making a province a trade company doesn't make it true faith, it just negates the intolerance it'd get for being heathen/ heretical. Except for some exceptional circumstances, you can get tolerance of the true faith up higher than you can for the others, so you can get like -2/3 or something more unrest reduction out of converting it all.
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Sep 8, 2017 23:55
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and they are often low development so converting is often not that hard.
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Sep 9, 2017 00:37
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You'll be glad you did it later, if you let overextension get out of hand. It's much easier to convert a province then add to trade company than the opposite; when you remove a province from a company, there's something like a ten year cooldown. I found this out the hard way and thought that I was missing some esoteric quality that made my provinces no longer qualify--not that unreasonable an assumption, considering that you can't have a trade company on your own continent, after all.
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Sep 9, 2017 02:29
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Japan in my current game can never unify their island(s), it's completely impossible because of a landlocked OPM who became a tributary. Derp. In an interesting move the Mamluks blobbed out and formed Egypt but then their alliance with Bulgaria dragged them into two wars against Poland and they got stomped so hard one of the East African Coptic places ( edit  Um, ok? Poil fucked around with this message at 10:19 on Sep 9, 2017 |
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Sep 9, 2017 09:06
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Poil posted:Japan in my current game can never unify their island(s), it's completely impossible because of a landlocked OPM who became a tributary. Derp. Re Portugal bring a tributary: that Ming protection racket, man. Is Portugal exiled and Ming a colonizer?
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Sep 9, 2017 14:36
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Re Portugal bring a tributary: that Ming protection racket, man.
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Sep 9, 2017 14:41
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lately it seems like the commonwealth is either losing to the teutons early on and not even forming or they're getting stomped by some combo of powers in the area
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Sep 9, 2017 14:44
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Poil posted:They are exiled yes, but it's to the Caribbean and they own all of Cuba and Haiti plus some random islands so they should be larger and more powerful than they ever were in Europe. Ming is not a colonizer but I did notice that Portugal had placed a colony on Taiwan. Probably because of that. Seems legit. oddium posted:lately it seems like the commonwealth is either losing to the teutons early on and not even forming or they're getting stomped by some combo of powers in the area
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Sep 9, 2017 14:49
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oddium posted:lately it seems like the commonwealth is either losing to the teutons early on and not even forming or they're getting stomped by some combo of powers in the area Poland seems to be turning down the union on almost all my games. Once they do that they just get trashed by whoever feels like being new Poland.
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Sep 9, 2017 20:35
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The AI really has no loving idea how to prioritize war targets. Here's me getting my poo poo pushed in by France and Spain in a defensive war for my ally Britain: Where are the British armies? Literally on the other side of the world, of course.  
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Sep 9, 2017 20:40
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seems to me like it's playing as England just perfectly actually
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Sep 9, 2017 20:47
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Perfidous Albion strikes again!
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Sep 9, 2017 21:00
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Fister Roboto posted:The AI really has no loving idea how to prioritize war targets. Here's me getting my poo poo pushed in by France and Spain in a defensive war for my ally Britain: England has never been a good ally in any version of EUIV. Deep in your heart you know that, and that's why you have to abide by the NAPA principle, my friend Never Ally Perfidious Albion
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Sep 9, 2017 21:16
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Hey what do you all have against GB?  I'll have you know that it's perfectly fine and not overpowered at all once you break France and Castile's back.  
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Sep 9, 2017 22:09
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I'm taking a guess you allied ottomans.
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Sep 10, 2017 00:34
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BeAuMaN posted:I'm taking a guess you allied ottomans. Nah, I tried repeatedly but they never wanted to be my friends  early on my allies were Austria and Castile, once I was done crippling France (pissing off Austria and Castile who fully understood they were next) I then went Protestant, allied Sweden and Bohemia who had grown pretty huge, and enforced Protestant as the official HRE faith to ensure a weak HRE and deny Austria any chance at emperorship.Then once I was done eating France, half the low countries and northern Spain, those idiots in Bohemia started consecutive hopeless wars against Austria forcing me to decline their constant call to arms and they got eaten by Poland... Well no problem, I allied Poland and then nobody wanted to mess with me anymore 
TorakFade fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Sep 10, 2017 |
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Sep 10, 2017 06:48
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So apparently the Napoleonic Warfare bonus of "Artillery Bonus vs Forts +3" actually means "Maximum Artillery Bonus vs Forts +3". There's a massive loving difference there! Screw you! 
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Sep 10, 2017 11:49
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Did you think it was like... +3 per artillery level? So +15 if you siege with a full stack? That'd be nuts +3 max is already pretty amazing
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Sep 10, 2017 12:11
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Maybe a base +3 or the last level being worth more. But the point is that the tooltip is lying and being poorly explained.
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Sep 10, 2017 13:10
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Yeah I thought it meant +3 to the highest rating once you qualified for it or something. Could definitely be explained better.
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Sep 10, 2017 15:47
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QuarkJets posted:+3 max is already pretty amazing It's insane when you combine it with artillery barrages, which if you ask me, are totally worth 50 MP. Just roll up to a fort and instantly have +11 to progress. You could theoretically win a siege against a level 9 capital fort in 3 tics with that. With a +5 siege leader you could end it in a single tic.
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Sep 10, 2017 20:51
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Fister Roboto posted:It's insane when you combine it with artillery barrages, which if you ask me, are totally worth 50 MP. Just roll up to a fort and instantly have +11 to progress. You could theoretically win a siege against a level 9 capital fort in 3 tics with that. With a +5 siege leader you could end it in a single tic.
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Sep 10, 2017 21:13
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Hey, it's possible. With Aristocratic ideas and the Innovative/Offensive policy you get +2 siege guaranteed. Since you have Offensive you also get +1 shock and fire. Let's add +2 maneuver from Defensive ideas and the Quantity/Exploration policy. If you're the Shawnee you get +2 more manuever. So now you've got leaders with guaranteed 1/1/4/2. If you roll 15 pips or higher from tradition, you're guaranteed to have +5 or +6 siege. That's about a 27% chance with 100% AT. That's just to guarantee those points go to siege. If you roll lower you have a 10% chance for each pip to go to siege, and you only need 3 of them.
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Sep 10, 2017 21:35
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Fister Roboto posted:Hey, it's possible. With Aristocratic ideas and the Innovative/Offensive policy you get +2 siege guaranteed. Since you have Offensive you also get +1 shock and fire. Let's add +2 maneuver from Defensive ideas and the Quantity/Exploration policy. If you're the Shawnee you get +2 more manuever. So now you've got leaders with guaranteed 1/1/4/2. If you roll 15 pips or higher from tradition, you're guaranteed to have +5 or +6 siege. That's about a 27% chance with 100% AT. That's just to guarantee those points go to siege. If you roll lower you have a 10% chance for each pip to go to siege, and you only need 3 of them. 
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Sep 10, 2017 21:40
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I've gotten more on the train of "military policies during every major war" now that monarch points are more abundant if I'm a country in a rough position, it's not actually that crazy. Has started to get a bit stale though.
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Sep 10, 2017 21:43
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Poil posted:Of course, how silly of me. It seems a bit crazy though. What do you mean? All you have to do is pick six specific idea groups, use two specific policies, be a specific nation, have Napoleonic Warfare, have 100 AT, get lucky with your leader roll, have at least 40 artillery regiments in your stack, and spend 50 MP to make a breach in order to have a 7% chance of ending a siege against a max level fort on the first tic. Totally feasible! For real though, stacking a bunch of siege modifiers is amazing.
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Sep 10, 2017 21:49
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I thought it meant that whatever your roll was, you got 3 added to it.
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Sep 11, 2017 00:18
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Playing some multiplayer yesterday with myself as Castile, and two friends as France and England respectively. Doing a bit of a Voltron game and competing over colonization. I got an early Burgundian Succession and Iberian Wedding. Why can't this ever happen in single player ironman for me??
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Sep 11, 2017 03:33
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Mister Adequate posted:I thought it meant that whatever your roll was, you got 3 added to it. That would be insanely OP (as opposed to just incredibly OP) because you could just park a single artillery regiment on any fort and get +4 to progress.
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Sep 11, 2017 04:24
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What happens if you integrate a subject nation that has colonial nations in the same region as your own? I know you get them as well, but I'm wondering whether they assimilate or if you'll just have two separate colonial nations.
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Sep 11, 2017 06:50
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