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Junpei posted:I... what... just... the... gently caress? I mean, I heard a little about Renne's backstory from Zero/Ao, but... drat, Renne needs a hug. By the way, there's an additional picture that's shown in the game after Loewe and Josh raid Paradise. What the two of them remark about isn't alluded, it's actually shown: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zl62avFw_2c/maxresdefault.jpg Sweet dreams. Edit: Goes without saying, the subject matter being what it is, but don't let your boss catch you viewing this on your work computer. Erpy fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Sep 10, 2017 |
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Sep 10, 2017 18:44
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Erpy posted:By the way, there's an additional picture that's shown in the game after Loewe and Josh raid Paradise. What the two of them remark about isn't alluded, it's actually shown: You should probably consider tagging that both  and 
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Sep 10, 2017 18:55
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yeah im glad they put a lot of thought into writing and rewriting this, the final product clearly shows that they thought very carefully about how to portray this instead of just throwing it in. it's a pretty well-written scene and probably one of the better depictions of this kind of thing in anything i can remember, especially video games. It doesn't feel gratuitous at all, and the focus is on Renne and how she's grown and coped.
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Sep 10, 2017 19:42
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What really stood out to me here (having only caught up to the LP a couple days ago, still need to gnaw on the final dungeon in fact) is how they use the alternate personalities. It's not the first time I've played a game that used Dissociative Identity Disorder, but of those handful of cases I can't think of any where the trauma actually broke the dissociation. It's not just so hosed up she developed a coping mechanism so extreme we're not entirely sure it actually exists (at least, not to my knowledge? I'm not an expert on abnormal psych though.), but it actually broke down and left her to her own devices. It also adds a lot of darkness to Pater Mater. Linking up to the robot causes mental strain that keeps rendering the potential pilots catatonic? No problem, just hook the girl with multiple personalities up to it! It'll be fine!
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Sep 10, 2017 22:11
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This door was very close to not being handled well considering the subject matter, and they would have fell into that if they stuck with the initial version. That version of the scenario really does not place enough weight on the matter.Rabbi Raccoon posted:Renne was the character from SC whose story intrigued me the most, and this door horrified me. I'm not sure if they ever continue her story past Phantasma, but I hope she gets a happy ending. Trails has a reputation for being fairly light, but it delves into dark drat well. In fact, the reason I got into this series was because I saw a picture of Cassius from the first game saying "Papa is sad!" and it made me giggle. I was incredibly surprised at the experience that waited for me. But I never expected this. Present day events in the series tends to be pretty light-ish, but the backstories and events in the past can get pretty grim.
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Sep 10, 2017 22:14
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CmdrKing posted:It also adds a lot of darkness to Pater Mater. Linking up to the robot causes mental strain that keeps rendering the potential pilots catatonic? No problem, just hook the girl with multiple personalities up to it! It'll be fine! I suspect the multiple personality coping mechanism may have been the reason she didn't share the fate of the other pilots. When the others linked to Pater Mater, it put strain on their sense of self, often even destroying it. Renne had such a strong sense of dissociation, she was able to keep the robot's "conciousness" separate from her own. It's possible "Pater Mater" is simply another split personality that Renne uses to control it, one she created to watch over her like Cross and the others. The report did mention she suffered from flashbacks during the connection process.
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Sep 10, 2017 22:31
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"How is someone able to keep living?" Sadly, I can see Weissman being deeply interested in that questions.
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Sep 10, 2017 23:21
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Erpy posted:I suspect the multiple personality coping mechanism may have been the reason she didn't share the fate of the other pilots. When the others linked to Pater Mater, it put strain on their sense of self, often even destroying it. Renne had such a strong sense of dissociation, she was able to keep the robot's "conciousness" separate from her own. It's possible "Pater Mater" is simply another split personality that Renne uses to control it, one she created to watch over her like Cross and the others. Oh, absolutely. The other possibility is the opposite, that controlling Pater Mater involve basically inhabiting two bodies at once, and Renne's dissociation means splitting her consciousness like that is something she's already done. Of course, the end effect is the same: Pater Mater is basically a caretaker personality that Renne created and split off into her giant robot.
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Sep 11, 2017 01:10
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When I first saw this door, my jaw dropped for the entire story. After Joshua and Kevin's backstories, I knew Renne's would be even worse. I figured Cross was a schizo personality right away, especially when he said he'd always protect Renne. And then  there are a lot of false personalities protecting Renne's sanity. It actually bothered me enough that I thought the game wouldn't actually be that dark, so maybe the other kids are real and Renne was being separated as a science experiment. So it was a fresh gut punch to see those personalities fall apart and verbally abuse the real Renne. And then GODDAMN when those quotes from Estelle popped up. They had so much sincerity and weight when we got to see Estelle's journey in SC, but they're a thousand times more meaningful now that we see what Renne was going through too. This was a horrendous event. And this was a good door.
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Sep 11, 2017 01:19
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A couple months ago now I was finally able to get 3rd, after putting it off for some time. I've been quietly lurking the LP since I got it, playing along as this thread updates, and have for the most part been able to keep away from spoilers as I continue through it (in spite of my girlfriend's attempts to spoil some of the stardoors for me). I've finally completely caught up with the thread (technically a little ahead, but eh). What a point to catch up with. The writing really does make it go just far enough that it's horrific and a true gut-punch, but doesn't edge so far as to make it unwatchable. It's dark, unpleasant, and really makes the interactions with her last game, the Pater-Mater door in this one, just... everything related to her all the more saddening and unsettling. Someone else commented that putting this at the end of what is more or less hell is a bit on the nose, and I definitely agree with that. Even with how dark the game has gotten with Kevin's backstory and the like, this moment still comes and hits you like a freight train. I think the thing that makes it hit so hard is because of how the games are still more upbeat in tone, but they in a way give you a kind of warning that this is coming. Tonal shift is just gradual enough that it doesn't come out of nowhere, but not so much that it ruins the "surprise" at the end. It's a very delicate balance and I'd argue it's pulled off perfectly. Even with all this said, I don't really want to revisit this again, and it'll be the one thing I dread having to go over upon any replays of the game.
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Sep 11, 2017 02:59
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Do you actually have to replay this every time through?
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Sep 11, 2017 03:16
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ultrafilter posted:Do you actually have to replay this every time through? It's certainly possible to skip it, but then you'd have to skip Star Door 14 as well and uh, I'll just leave it at that for now 
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Sep 11, 2017 03:35
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Well, that's a tragic backstory and a half. If that's not depressing, I don't know what is.
I can have moments of... eccentricity and sometimes be quite curious about things. Please forgive me if I do something foolish or rude.
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Sep 11, 2017 15:55
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ultrafilter posted:Do you actually have to replay this every time through? If you want the achievements for clearing higher difficulties, you have to complete every door again. I never did manage to beat the Ravens' star door on Hard or Nightmare. 
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Sep 12, 2017 18:05
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I guess the Russells did develop the weapon to surpass Metal Gear.
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Sep 12, 2017 18:21
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- The first time I went into the Abyss, I had Cloak on and fought nothing at all, I just went to the bottom and got all the chests along the way, and found the door. I spent so much time getting everyone up to level 135 in the Abyss that I completely forgot about the Tournament Invitation. So I never went until after I'd already finished the game. Even so, I took Richard instead of Anelace. (My full team was Kevin, Renne, Richard, Agate). No Jinu upgrade for me. - Yeah, I somehow found the Cassius/Loewe fight easier as well. All those levels made a difference. I think I also made sure to equip everyone with anti-confuse gear as well. I did take Loewe out first because I found his status and sandbagging potential more annoying than Cassius's sheer power. - Honestly I barely used Tita in this game. By the time Orbal gear is available, there are so many other party members. - I just stuck Zin with Septium Vein and Petrify (Defense sucks). Soul might have been really useful too if I had done it before finishing the game.
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Sep 12, 2017 18:40
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The fact that the final arena battle isn't as nightmarish as it could have been is probably due to the fact that their Chapter 6 incarnations are in many ways stronger. Arena Cassius has higher HP and defense than Leiston Cassius, but Leiston Cassius' Str-stat is 50 points higher than his Arena counterpart's and his Spd-stat is 10 points higher. Likewise, Schwarzritter's Str and Spd are 101 and 31 points higher than Arena Loewe's. So it's not just that you're stronger now, Cassius and Loewe are less deadly than their Chapter 6 incarnations, even if they can withstand more punishment.
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Sep 12, 2017 20:06
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It probably helps to also have Murderbot 9000 soloing Cassius on its own while the rest of the party can deal with Loewe's shenanigans.
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Sep 12, 2017 20:49
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Oh, that's an interesting little interaction.
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Sep 13, 2017 02:05
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Super Jay Mann posted:It probably helps to also have Murderbot 9000 soloing Cassius on its own while the rest of the party can deal with Loewe's shenanigans. You basically HAVE to have someone away to draw Cassius' attention/get away from him as he smashes peoples' faces in, or else he'll be able to do too much damage to your party at once and turns the fight into a constant jumble of healing/reviving and guarding. Kevin with Grail Sphere makes it quite a bit more manageable, but only if you prioritize taking down Loewe first so he doesn't pester you with status. Anelace still dealt the finishing blow to him in this when I cleared it, much like I had Estelle KO him with Wheel of Time back in Chapter 6. Because it's one thing to finish a fight against Bracer Jesus, it's another thing to do it with style.
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Sep 13, 2017 02:26
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RE: Renne's star door: Imagine I posted  a million times here.In more lighter things, if this is what the Russells can do currently with robot technology, I can only imagine what the future holds for them. Tita's going to be fielding an entire robot drone army when she shows up in Cold Steel 3, isn't she?
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Sep 13, 2017 06:06
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Future updates will be delayed until the cable's back on.
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Sep 13, 2017 13:14
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This door left me  and  and  and 
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Sep 13, 2017 14:29
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Yeah, this is one major door for the series overarcing plot. Several people behind those One of them has through a little optional conversation in SC: quote:
It's obvious that Number 6 is Novartis. This scene is also pretty interesting to watch once you've completed CS1 and CS2, since another one of the voices is introduced in those games.
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Sep 13, 2017 15:06
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One of the Anguis is a man called Doctor Novartis. He leads the 'Thirteen Factories' of Ouroboros in their development of radical orbal technology. At least, that's what I was told, back when.
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Interesting foreshadowing. There's also enough tidbits to put a few pieces into place: - The Second Anguis is apparently a woman. - None of the Anguis or even the Grandmaster seem to be members of the Septian Church - at least, not high enough in rank to know that Kevin was the Fifth Dominion. - It strikes me as notable that the second phase is called Phantasmal Blaze, and we are in Phantasma. Coincidence? I guess...?
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Sep 13, 2017 15:07
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To be fair to Kevin, it's not like he could have stopped Campanella in any way at that point. In the same way though, Campanella probably couldn't stick around to kill Kevin without risking the destruction of the staff holding the Aureole, and Kevin would absolutely roll the dice on that. The Grandmaster is such a gigantic hypocrite. Oh no Weissmann was a sociopath, how uncouth. Now let me take no corrective action while he kicks puppies and chews scenery* for fun. Oh no our plans mean the death and suffering of countless people. How sad. Now let's start the next part of the plan, FULL SPEED AHEAD, can't make an omelette without horribly torturing some chickens. Torture gives that certain je ne sais quoi to the eggs, you see. E: *ok, no-one minds someone that can properly chew scenery. First point still stands Omobono fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Sep 13, 2017 |
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Sep 13, 2017 16:01
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One of the things I found really important about this door is the existence of someone who can make Campanella drop his trickster personality and talk respectfully.
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Sep 13, 2017 16:07
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I love everything about this door: more Campanella, getting tidbits about the other Anguis, hearing everyone poo poo on Weissman and getting a tiny bit of insight on the Grandmaster. Wonderful door and super foreboding.
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Sep 13, 2017 16:12
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I also like the reminder that the Xenogearsian, nigh-godlike shadow lords only have a handful of Enforcers and we've already gotten like a quarter of them to quit via friendship. Even Walter and Bleublanc would probably come to Estelle's birthday party. If she asked them to stop being evil they might say no but they would definitely think about it first.
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Sep 13, 2017 16:51
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Explosions posted:I also like the reminder that the Xenogearsian, nigh-godlike shadow lords only have a handful of Enforcers and we've already gotten like a quarter of them to quit via friendship. Bleublanc would absolutely steal the cake and have them solve riddles across town to find whatever place he decided to put it, though.
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Sep 13, 2017 16:54
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This door was also turned into a Drama CD later which revealed the fact that Ouroboros' Grandmaster is female and fueled all the more speculation as to her identity.Omobono posted:The Grandmaster is such a gigantic hypocrite. The Grandmaster seems to have some very hands-off philosophy, similar to how enforcers are given absolute freedom to either go along with a plan, sit it out or even actively work against it. That said, the Grandmaster DID put two safeguards in place against Weissmann going rogue. The first one was Loewe, whose sword Kernviter was designed as an anti-Aureole weapon. The second one was Weissmann's staff, which had similar origins as Loewe's blade (SC called it Divergent Laws weapons) which was able to absorb the Aureole into itself. (both were apparantly forged by the Grandmaster) Unlike Loewe, Weissmann had no idea his weapon had this ability. When the staff absorbs the Aureole, reversing his transformation in the process, Weissmann's like "What the heck just happened?".
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Sep 13, 2017 17:27
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This star door actually got me down the rabbit hole of reading about the Anguis. Protip: Don't do it if you haven't played later games. Lots of really interesting speculation, but LOTS of spoilers too. Fortunately I'm not the sort to flip my poo poo about spoilers, and very seldom find that they ruin my enjoyment of the game. Dorothy is the fifth Anguis.
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Sep 13, 2017 17:30
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Knowing this series, there probably WAS someone in there with Campanella and thinking he was talking to us is a fakeout
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Sep 13, 2017 17:33
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Rabbi Raccoon posted:Knowing this series, there probably WAS someone in there with Campanella and thinking he was talking to us is a fakeout Isn't fourth wall awareness one of Campanella's enforcer superpowers? 
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Sep 13, 2017 17:41
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It was also Celeste when she still had control of Phantasma. Remember she made all the doors. It was also us because Campanella can definitely break the 4th wall, which he's proven.
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Sep 13, 2017 18:09
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Erpy posted:That said, the Grandmaster DID put two safeguards in place against Weissmann going rogue. That's exactly what I'm talking about. For all her pretty words the safeguards against Weissmann were only to be used if he was to betray the society; that is, if Weissmann's behavior ever affected the Grandmaster negatively. As long as the puppy Weissmann was kicking wasn't hers, she clearly had no problems with the way Weissmann was an There's a quote from von Clausewitz: "A conqueror is always a lover of peace (as Bonaparte always asserted of himself); he would like to make his entry into our state unopposed" The hypocrisy of the aggressor, of the would-be conqueror, in declaring him or herself a lover of peace should be obvious. The same for the Grandmaster. If she actually cared about how Weissmann behaved, she'd never have employed him in the first place or she'd have told him to tone it down; lamenting his behavior after he delivered exactly what she wanted (even if posthumously) is nothing but dishonest. She clearly doesn't care about the deaths from her plans, her machinations; lamenting those deaths in the same breath where she orders new deaths is frankly vile.
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Sep 13, 2017 18:23
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Erpy posted:This door was also turned into a Drama CD later which revealed the fact that Ouroboros' Grandmaster is female and fueled all the more speculation as to her identity. Let me guess, some of the speculation is that the grandmaster is Goddess Aidios herself. Unsure if that would be a good or bad twist if true. I can have moments of... eccentricity and sometimes be quite curious about things. Please forgive me if I do something foolish or rude.
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Sep 13, 2017 19:13
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:- It strikes me as notable that the second phase is called Phantasmal Blaze, and we are in Phantasma. Coincidence? I guess...?
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Sep 13, 2017 19:15
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Stephen9001 posted:Let me guess, some of the speculation is that the grandmaster is Goddess Aidios herself. Unsure if that would be a good or bad twist if true. Yep. I'd say a bad twist, because if the Grandmaster is Aidios, why does she need the treasures that she bestowed on humanity?
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Sep 13, 2017 19:23
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Terper posted:The Japanese names for those do not carry the same connection. Yeah, after I finished the Third, I decided it probably was just a coincidence or something. Some Numbers posted:I'd say a bad twist, because if the Grandmaster is Aidios, why does she need the treasures that she bestowed on humanity? What does a goddess need with a Crimson Ark?
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Sep 13, 2017 19:26
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