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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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77 | 25.50% |
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160 | 52.98% |
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65 | 21.52% |
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Remember also that May and her Tories basically see eye to eye with Trump on Muslim immigrants among other minorities they want to screw over so the idea that Obama and his crew are champions of the oppressed is laughable. Like I've said with Democrats social leftism will be trumped by economic conservatism every time. They are only supportive of equal rights once someone else has done the legwork or there is absolutely no cost. Seriously Obama was a not good and I'm sick of people making excuses for his waste of eight years that got us here. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Sep 10, 2017 |
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Sep 10, 2017 21:13
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Radish posted:Remember also that May and her Tories basically see eye to eye with Trump on Muslim immigrants so the idea that Obama and his crew are champions of the oppressed is laughable. Like I've said with Democrats social leftism will be trumped by economic conservative every time. They are only supportive of equal rights once someone else has done the legwork or there is absolutely no cost. Seriously Obama was a not good and I'm sick of people making excuses for his waste of eight years that got us here. Putting Obama and Trump side by side does a great job illustrating the hero worship and authoritarianism that seems almost ubiquitous in this country's political paradigm. Persona will always supersede policy for a not insignificant number of Americans, no matter how obvious or painful the betrayal.
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Sep 10, 2017 21:17
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I think Hillary's fans are closer to Trump supporters than Obama's if you line them up against one another but yeah the cult of personality is pretty strong here and overrules any objective analysis of policy. It doesn't help that Obama was pretty good for the sort of people that set narratives for the country so they had no reason not to love him. I'd really love though that this is the nail in the casket of idiots that say Congress, Lieberman, or whoever in his cabinet was the cause for him not doing much progressive anything but I know that's not the case.
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Sep 10, 2017 21:21
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Office Pig posted:Putting Obama and Trump side by side does a great job illustrating the hero worship and authoritarianism that seems almost ubiquitous in this country's political paradigm. Persona will always supersede policy for a not insignificant number of Americans, no matter how obvious or painful the betrayal. Very true. Kennedy, Reagan and Obama are the modern trio of presidents that show how you can fully detach image from reality and still be able to have a political machine built around you. I'll never stop being amazed at the number of otherwise smart people who tell me "Kennedy was a peacenik, he was totally going to pull out of Vietnam!". About one third of the time, that is followed by "...and that is why he was killed!", and by that point they are no longer in the smart people folder.
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Sep 10, 2017 21:58
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Chomskyan posted:ahaha Obama leaked information from Labour to the Tories. Liberalism truly does prefer Fascism to Socialism i just finally read that article and wtf he actually did i thought he just wished may well (which is already hosed up enough), but leaking info from labour to the idiotic tories? wth is wrong with obama 
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Sep 10, 2017 22:15
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Condiv posted:i just finally read that article and wtf he actually did Nothing. He was a right wing president and he's ideologically closer to the tories than to labour.
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Sep 10, 2017 23:37
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tekz posted:Nothing. He was a right wing president and he's ideologically closer to the tories than to labour. I think it was probably primarily motivated by wanting to undermine Corbyn, who (right)-centrists on both of the Atlantic completely loathe.
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Sep 11, 2017 00:07
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Condiv posted:i just finally read that article and wtf he actually did To clarify: What Barack loving Obama did is the exact thing Dems have been accusing Russia of since November, correct?
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Sep 11, 2017 00:07
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steinrokkan posted:To clarify: What Barack loving Obama did is the exact thing Dems have been accusing Russia of since November, correct? It is okay to interfere with an election if you are the good guys.
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Sep 11, 2017 00:11
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Condiv posted:i just finally read that article and wtf he actually did He's always been a traitor, just not in the ways the right wing accused him of.
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Sep 11, 2017 00:18
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steinrokkan posted:To clarify: What Barack loving Obama did is the exact thing Dems have been accusing Russia of since November, correct? Did he hack the Labour Party and doxx them or hack to gain access to U.K. Voter rolls? No. Only an idiot believes that. This thread is a waste. Good thing actual voters don't care about this circlejerk and will actually focus on punishing Trump in a year.
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Sep 11, 2017 00:58
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Sep 11, 2017 01:09
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Chomskyan posted:ahaha Obama leaked information from Labour to the Tories. Liberalism truly does prefer Fascism to Socialism Why in the TYOOL 2017 is polling in the UK so impossible?
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Sep 11, 2017 01:12
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dont even fink about it posted:Why in the TYOOL 2017 is polling in the UK so impossible? Those being polled are afraid of admitting to left/right populism?
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Sep 11, 2017 01:14
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Raskolnikov38 posted:lol the list of bill's accomplishments. the clintons have been chasing moderate republicans for decades despite being loathed by them The Clintons are moderate Republicans (90s versions at the very least).
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Sep 11, 2017 02:04
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yronic heroism posted:Did he hack the Labour Party and doxx them or hack to gain access to U.K. Voter rolls? Obama's call came after voting was over, so comparing it to the DNC hacking that came a few months before voting here is pretty silly. However, I can understand why it gets people wound up because the idea that a former Democratic president would prefer the Tories over Corbyn's Labour is just so repulsive on so many levels. I still take the disdain Obama has for the politics that he used to help get him elected in the first place personally, as I was one of the many suckers who bought into it in the first place.
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Sep 11, 2017 03:02
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yronic heroism posted:No. Only an idiot believes that. This thread is a waste. Good thing actual voters don't care about this circlejerk and will actually focus on punishing Trump in a year. It might be tough for you to understand, but many people actually recognize that there are important problems that are causing many people to suffer, and the Democratic Party is the only realistic vector for fixing those problems. As a result, the problem of trying to move the Democrats towards more beneficial policy is a very important one, and something the average left-leaning voter arguably has a lot more control over than whether Trump does bad things. Trump/Republicans don't really give a poo poo if a bunch of liberals post online about how much they hate Trump (if anything it probably increases Trump's credibility in conservatives' eyes), but, at the very least, the Democratic Party is obviously aware and at least somewhat concerned about the "schism" represented by Sanders and the left. Heck, the fact that so many Democrats are now openly coming out in favor of single payer/medicare for all is a direct result of leftist discontent against Democrats. If they had all just fallen in line and blindly supported Democrats out of some misguided sense of "unity" this would have never happened. So there are actual tangible positive results to expressing discontent in this sort of way. The only time your argument is actually valid is when it comes to actually casting votes. You can reasonably use the "stopping Trump is the most important" argument against someone who says they aren't voting for a Democrat (in a swing state), but that's a completely separate issue from merely expressing criticism. Also, the fact that there exist some dumb conspiratorial opinions from the left is nothing unique. Literally all political ideologies have some adherents who will blindly believe anything that supports their preconceived opinions (if you lied to a random liberal about some terrible thing Trump did, there's a very good chance they'd blindly believe you).
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Sep 11, 2017 03:17
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Presented for your consideration: https://twitter.com/Newyorkist/status/888936744095272960
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Sep 11, 2017 03:54
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Sephyr posted:Presented for your consideration: quote:I have cousins who live on a kibbutz in Israel, and they've almost completely abandoned all their socialist tenets. What do you mean you can't have socialism and a fascist ethno-state?
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Sep 11, 2017 03:56
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Ytlaya posted:Also, the fact that there exist some dumb conspiratorial opinions from the left is nothing unique. Literally all political ideologies have some adherents who will blindly believe anything that supports their preconceived opinions (if you lied to a random liberal about some terrible thing Trump did, there's a very good chance they'd blindly believe you). Yeah, but how else is yronic heroism gonna get those sick nasty burns in against people who commit wrongthink?
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Sep 11, 2017 03:59
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MooselanderII posted:Obama's call came after voting was over, so comparing it to the DNC hacking that came a few months before voting here is pretty silly. However, I can understand why it gets people wound up because the idea that a former Democratic president would prefer the Tories over Corbyn's Labour is just so repulsive on so many levels. I still take the disdain Obama has for the politics that he used to help get him elected in the first place personally, as I was one of the many suckers who bought into it in the first place. Actually, it sounds like the message happened before 10 PM ie before the polls closed/the exit poll was released, so voting was still happening. quote:Shortly before the exit poll, which sent shockwaves through both party headquarters, the former US president contacted a friend in Tory central office with the soothing news that Labour was expecting to see the Conservatives increase their majority. He may not have broken any laws (I assume anyway), but yeah it was interfering it an active election.
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Sep 11, 2017 04:17
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Ytlaya posted:It might be tough for you to understand, but many people actually recognize that there are important problems that are causing many people to suffer, and the Democratic Party is the only realistic vector for fixing those problems. As a result, the problem of trying to move the Democrats towards more beneficial policy is a very important one, and something the average left-leaning voter arguably has a lot more control over than whether Trump does bad things. Trump/Republicans don't really give a poo poo if a bunch of liberals post online about how much they hate Trump (if anything it probably increases Trump's credibility in conservatives' eyes), but, at the very least, the Democratic Party is obviously aware and at least somewhat concerned about the "schism" represented by Sanders and the left. People with dumb conspiratorial opinions should not post, though. Seriously, take that poo poo to reddit. As for the rest, pushing the party is one thing, but "Obama bad" is self-defeating when it reaches the point of dissuading general election turnout. Trashing a primary opponent as ineffective is one thing but when it reaches the point of basically calling them a fascist don't be surprised some credulous people are gonna stay home.
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Sep 11, 2017 05:26
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Ardennes posted:Actually, it sounds like the message happened before 10 PM ie before the polls closed/the exit poll was released, so voting was still happening. I'm sure that phone conversation had a massive effect on people going to vote at 10 pm.
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Sep 11, 2017 05:27
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Lol at the people calling a personal call on election day "electoral interference" being the same folks who minimize the Russian election meddling.
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Sep 11, 2017 05:34
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shrike82 posted:Lol at the people calling a personal call on election day "electoral interference" being the same folks who minimize the Russian election meddling. The phone call was on election day? lol, this thread never changes.
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Sep 11, 2017 05:45
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Yeah, it's pretty hosed that there still are people ITT who are so deep into the bad dem cult that they don't see the problem with supporting the goddamn Tories under any circumstances whatsoever.
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Sep 11, 2017 06:54
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Cerebral Bore posted:Yeah, it's pretty hosed that there still are people ITT who are so deep into the bad dem cult that they don't see the problem with supporting the goddamn Tories under any circumstances whatsoever. Well, think of how many 'reasonable' op-eds and talks they would be able to give if the UK dismantled their public health structure. "See, even the brits can't keep the NHS going! It's impossible, impossible I tell you!" Hell, it'd likely send a wave of priapism through DC from David Brooks to Jamie Kirchik.
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Sep 11, 2017 07:14
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It's not "minimizing" Russian election interference to point out that Putin's going to be Putin and that the interference was not enough to swing the election had the Democratic campaign been otherwise competent. The response from the Democratic party ought to be to reduce the number of vulnerable attack vectors going forward and to neutralize Russian propaganda efforts wherever they can. And to not run lovely candidates who are vulnerable those kinds of attacks. GOP voters are not going to give a poo poo as long as the interference favors their side, and it always will, nor is the Mueller investigation going to make being a Republican illegal. Russia is just another in a long line of excuses from liberals for why Hillary lost. And like all the other excuses, there is enough to it that you can sorta point to it as having swung the election, because the election was so close. If you think this is an argument that reflects well on liberalism and Hillary's performance in the election, trying being less stupid and thinking a little harder. Peachfart posted:The phone call was on election day? lol, this thread never changes.
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Sep 11, 2017 07:16
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Kilroy posted:Have you given up on the idea that the Democratic establishment is a worthwhile ally of leftists, then? Because anyone calling Theresa May and telling her to keep her chin up is not a friend of the left. Not that we didn't already know that, since Obama's been making GBS threads on Corbyn since the leadership election in 2015. Good to see you're coming around to the idea that the Democrats can be liberal, or socialist, but not both - even if you're on the liberal side of things. Strange though that you're still complaining about this thread if you agree with the basic thesis of it, but I'll just attribute that to your being a bad poster. I don't see why anyone would complain, it's a fun read.
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Sep 11, 2017 07:22
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I love the nitpicking that goes on in this thread. When the British election was going on, a bunch of people were trying really hard to distance Messina from the rest of Obama's organization. Then it comes that Obama was in deep enough with May to feel like he had to call her with gossip from people in Labour that he knew. And instead of dealing with that, they pick the one hyperbole post and pretend that that is the entire thread.
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Sep 11, 2017 07:40
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Ytlaya posted:It might be tough for you to understand, but many people actually recognize that there are important problems that are causing many people to suffer, and the Democratic Party is the only realistic vector for fixing those problems. As a result, the problem of trying to move the Democrats towards more beneficial policy is a very important one, and something the average left-leaning voter arguably has a lot more control over than whether Trump does bad things. Trump/Republicans don't really give a poo poo if a bunch of liberals post online about how much they hate Trump (if anything it probably increases Trump's credibility in conservatives' eyes), but, at the very least, the Democratic Party is obviously aware and at least somewhat concerned about the "schism" represented by Sanders and the left. a good example of conspiratorial opinions from liberals pretending bernie was/is a russian puppet Condiv fucked around with this message at 07:51 on Sep 11, 2017 |
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Sep 11, 2017 07:48
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Trump has already passed more bipartisan legislation than Obama ever did. Obama, not Russia, interfered with the Brexit when he called Theresa May giving vital intelligence. Like crooked Hillary did when she cheated during the debates against Bernie. Trump is a better President than Obama ever was.
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Sep 11, 2017 07:53
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Cerebral Bore posted:Yeah, it's pretty hosed that there still are people ITT who are so deep into the bad dem cult that they don't see the problem with supporting the goddamn Tories under any circumstances whatsoever. no it's perfectly fine obama supported uk's version of the republicans. remember when the tories paid the fascist dup members to support them so they could form a government! that's some good democrat compatible politics right there!
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Sep 11, 2017 07:55
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John Henry Miller posted:Trump has already passed more bipartisan legislation than Obama ever did. now you're just being silly. the piss golem is not and will never be a good president
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Sep 11, 2017 07:56
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Condiv posted:Donald Trump is a good president Russia is fake news. Dow is up. Unemployment is down. Hurricane response is better than Katrina. Trump is getting government out of the way where government hurts tax paying Americans and keeping it running like a smooth machine where government can help Americans.
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Sep 11, 2017 08:01
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John Henry Miller posted:Russia is fake news. Lol no he's awful.
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Sep 11, 2017 09:26
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yronic heroism posted:Did he hack the Labour Party and doxx them or hack to gain access to U.K. Voter rolls?
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Sep 11, 2017 09:51
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John Henry Miller posted:Russia is fake news. That's a really low-effort troll, try again. No one is getting angry at these kinds of platitudes.
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Sep 11, 2017 09:57
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John Henry Miller posted:Russia is fake news. ignoring his attempts to repeal the aca
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Sep 11, 2017 11:18
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 BUT MUH TAXES
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Sep 11, 2017 11:21
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