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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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| B |
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77 | 25.50% |
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160 | 52.98% |
| M |
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65 | 21.52% |
| Total: | 229 votes | ||
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no it means when you're part of the opposition and have no chance of passing anything you can sponsor whatever the hell you want
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Sep 11, 2017 19:00
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NewForumSoftware posted:no it means when you're part of the opposition and have no chance of passing anything you can sponsor whatever the hell you want they weren't even doing that before, which was ze pollack's point
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Sep 11, 2017 19:01
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Man, why wont the democrats do something we want. Ugh, the democrats are only doing something we want to deceive us I get being cautious of people's change in opinions. This is like reason # 256 why hillary lost, but at the same time you should not complain about things moving in the direction you want them to move. Maybe something along the lines of "well that's a good start M. Booker, please continue to evolve on these issues and help us move the party to where it needs to be" instead of "gently caress you, you snake."
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Sep 11, 2017 19:01
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NewForumSoftware posted:no it means when you're part of the opposition and have no chance of passing anything you can sponsor whatever the hell you want that's why Cory Booker doing it is encouraging. this is the guy who in that same zero-consequences environment shut down a bill to import cheaper drugs from Canada on grounds that, uh, ~safety concerns~. that someone so deeply in pharma's pocket was capable of conceding he has to at least publicly support socializing american medicine shows that Team Corporate Dem is, genuinely, feeling the pressure to not do that poo poo anymore. it's a baby step. but it's a step.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:02
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Man, why wont the democrats do something we want. how about both? cory booker is obviously a snake after he cited republican arguments to vote against a bill that merely made the statement "we should reimport drugs from canada"
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Sep 11, 2017 19:03
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centrists becoming more effective politicians is a bad thing, not a good thing unless of course you want president booker him continuing to shoot himself in the foot is the best case scenario unless you want to explain in 2020 why he actually doesn't want the bill he cosponsored while he runs around campaigning on it
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Sep 11, 2017 19:03
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call to action posted:It's really sad that people might be fooled by Booker and Harris' co-sponsoring of Bernie's bill. I don't in the slightest. But remember how long they just gave lip service to the idea of gay marriage until public opinion started becoming so massively overwhelming that they had no choice? Hopefully we'll see the same thing for leftist economic policy in the next decade or three 
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Sep 11, 2017 19:04
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NewForumSoftware posted:centrists becoming more effective politicians is a bad thing, not a good thing that you find the idea of people being obliged by public pressure to support your policies a bad sign is painfully illuminating
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Sep 11, 2017 19:05
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There's no credible position to take BUT MFA at this point. What are Booker or Harris going to do in the face of a Hillary loss - try to sell Obamacare, precisely when it's clear that it's not going to control premiums in any meaningful way and most people already hate it? And that assumes that Trump won't try to sabotage it! Why would they fall on that sword? This is pure strategic triangulation taken by a party that literally cannot do anything.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:05
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Condiv posted:how about both? is obviously a snake after he cited republican arguments to vote against a bill that merely made the statement "we should reimport drugs from canada" If repeating republican arguments is such a sin, half the leftist posters in this thread are just as bad if not worse than cory booker. Sure, he's a wall street democrat, but this line of argument is a bit ridiculous.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:06
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:If repeating republican arguments is such a sin, half the leftist posters in this thread are just as bad if not worse than cory booker. Sure, he's a wall street democrat, but this line of argument is a bit ridiculous. no, voting it down based on republican arguments is the sin do you understand the difference between action and speech loam?
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Sep 11, 2017 19:07
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Corey Booker is a snake, but "We'll pretend to give you what you want" is a distinct step up from "We will stand in solidarity as members of the ruling class against what you want" which is where they were at.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:09
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Ze Pollack posted:that you find the idea of people being obliged by public pressure to support your policies a bad sign is painfully illuminating ahh yes people can change and maybe Corey Booker will become the leader the left actually needs your stockholm syndrome is showing
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Sep 11, 2017 19:09
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call to action posted:There's no credible position to take BUT MFA at this point. What are Booker or Harris going to do in the face of a Hillary loss - try to sell Obamacare, precisely when it's clear that it's not going to control premiums in any meaningful way and most people already hate it? Why would they fall on that sword? great question. but I can tell you that up until now, that's exactly what they were doing. quote:This is pure strategic triangulation taken by a party that literally cannot do anything. indeed. centrists are not good. but they have this saving grace: they are controllable. this is pure strategic triangulation to what they see as the safest thing to do. so when you change what the safest thing to do is, you drag the centrists towards you. they are large, heavy, stupid, and will actively fight the process. but you can get them to support leftist policy, if only out of terror of what will happen if they don't.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:09
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It's entirely reasonable to be suspect of fair-weather friends given you know they will abandon you the moment they see it as slightly convenient.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:09
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NewForumSoftware posted:ahh yes people can change and maybe Corey Booker will become the leader the left actually needs ahh, yes, and furthermore;
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Sep 11, 2017 19:09
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Ze Pollack posted:they are large, heavy, stupid, and will actively fight the process. but you can get them to support leftist policy, [citation needed]
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Sep 11, 2017 19:10
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Condiv posted:no, voting it down based on republican arguments is the sin Yes, I see there is a difference, but I feel like it's moot since it wasn't a bill that would have done anything. If he voted against a medicare for all bill using GOP talking points I would feel the same way as you, but the bill that was actually voted on was a nothing burger and wouldn't have mattered. Yes it sucks that he chose to vote that way in a symbolic vote, but I don't see it as the massive sin as others I guess.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:10
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Inescapable Duck posted:It's entirely reasonable to be suspect of fair-weather friends given you know they will abandon you the moment they see it as slightly convenient. absolutely. fact remains that when the fair-weather friends start moving in your direction, that's not a bad sign.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:11
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i too celebrate the co-opting of progressive movements by establishment democrats really great thing that absolutely didnt get taken advantage of by a right winger to spend 8 years in office after campaigning on opposing his own preferred policies
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Sep 11, 2017 19:12
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NewForumSoftware posted:[citation needed] american history from the years 1940-1970
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Sep 11, 2017 19:13
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It's pretty good that Cory Booker came out in favour of Bernie's bill. It means that the overton window will shift a bit more to the left, and it will also be fun to see the bad dem cultists meltdown over another bad dem siding with Bernie. So while Booker definitely still needs to be primaried, in the meantime might as well take what you can get.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:13
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Yes, I see there is a difference, but I feel like it's moot since it wasn't a bill that would have done anything. If he voted against a medicare for all bill using GOP talking points I would feel the same way as you, but the bill that was actually voted on was a nothing burger and wouldn't have mattered. Yes it sucks that he chose to vote that way in a symbolic vote, but I don't see it as the massive sin as others I guess. no it's not moot. he refused to commit to lipservice to the idea of medication reimportation based on republican bullshit. that's a step lower than refusing to commit to actual medication reimportation
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Sep 11, 2017 19:13
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Yes, I see there is a difference, but I feel like it's moot since it wasn't a bill that would have done anything. If he voted against a medicare for all bill using GOP talking points I would feel the same way as you, but the bill that was actually voted on was a nothing burger and wouldn't have mattered. Yes it sucks that he chose to vote that way in a symbolic vote, but I don't see it as the massive sin as others I guess. If it indeed it was a nothing bill, why didn't he give a symbolic yes vote? (The answer is even that would have pissed off his donors.) If you want to say that them adopting more publically positive views on UHC is a sign leverage is working, fine. If you want to say we should actually trust them or broadly support them, that train left in 2009. If the left essentially gives in any time a Democrat gives a concession, jack poo poo is going to happen.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:17
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NewForumSoftware posted:she already did embolden white nationalists and nazis, what do you think her anti-crime 90s were about? i guess calling young blacks superpredators was just a silly mistep, not giving ammo to white nationalists? or suggesting obama was actually a muslim? The ACA should be replaced with something better like Medicare for all but lol if you think Abuela was gonna do that
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Sep 11, 2017 19:18
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Cerebral Bore posted:It's pretty good that came out in favour of Bernie's bill. It means that the overton window will shift a bit more to the left, and it will also be fun to see the bad dem cultists meltdown over another bad dem siding with Bernie. I can't imagine anyone complaining about booker sponsoring bernie's bill, EDIT; removed flippant remark as I misread this post. Condiv posted:no it's not moot. he refused to commit to lipservice to the idea of medication reimportation based on republican bullshit. that's a step lower than refusing to commit to actual medication reimportation Well, agree to disagree on this. I am not going to defend booker on his pharma stances, because they are awful, however, that vote just meant much less to me than it meant to you.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:20
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Ze Pollack posted:absolutely. They're just keeping their enemies closer.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:21
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Ardennes posted:If it indeed it was a nothing bill, why didn't he give a symbolic yes vote? (The answer is even that would have pissed off his donors.) It was totally because of his donors. anyone that doesn't see that is wrong. I just don't hold it over him as much as this thread does because I understand that Cory Booker is the way he is. As soon as he can be replaced, i'm all in. I would just much rather have nooker than any other R.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:23
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AstheWorldWorlds posted:They're just keeping their enemies closer. ain't nobody asking you to mistake them for friends. you don't call the mercury in a thermometer your friend after it finally moves up from below freezing, but it's still an encouraging sign after a long loving winter.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:24
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Man, why wont the democrats do something we want. I think after what happened in California people are a little skeptical that the democrats will actually move forward on medicare for all when they have the power to do it.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:27
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:It was totally because of his donors. anyone that doesn't see that is wrong. I just don't hold it over him as much as this thread does because I understand that Cory Booker is the way he is. As soon as he can be replaced, i'm all in. I would just much rather have nooker than any other R. In all honesty, I think the only way forward is regime change in the Democratic Party itself. Otherwise, it will always be a game of bait and switch and in all honesty, I think we are running out of time (looking at the damage being done).
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Sep 11, 2017 19:28
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Ze Pollack posted:ain't nobody asking you to mistake them for friends. I mean any maneuvers they make have a 100% chance of being intended to destroy the left as opposed to genuine conversion. Treat them as a hated enemy because that is absolutely their attitude towards leftists. This means not falling for their empty gestures or misinterpreting them.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:29
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moths posted:I realize this is second-rate trolling, but I would be genuinely interested to understand how "being in the pocket of rich douchbags" is worse than actually being one of those douchbags from an outside-politics know nothing perspective. It's the difference between owning a company and working for a company. If you own a company, you can do whatever you want. If you work for a company, you have to do whatever the boss said. Trump is his own man whereas Hillary is owned by corporate interests. That is different from bringing industry experts in to run the government. People who work in business understand business as opposed to academics who never worked a day in their life but think they understand what is happening because of "theory". Trump is the hardest working President we've ever had. He's accomplished more in his first 100 days than any other president.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:29
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Ze Pollack posted:ain't nobody asking you to mistake them for friends. you don't call the mercury in a thermometer your friend after it finally moves up from below freezing, but it's still an encouraging sign after a long loving winter. I really like this analogy. Ze, I usually take umbrage with your post's self righteous nature, but your attitude towards booker I think is the right one to have. I will try and adopt it more when working with people that I don't exactly trust intentions, this thread included.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:30
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John Henry Miller posted:It's the difference between owning a company and working for a company. Nobody loving cares, this is not the trump thread.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:30
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NewForumSoftware posted:centrists becoming more effective politicians is a bad thing, not a good thing Like I want a socialist in the WH as well, but I'd take a centrist who's more scared of attack on his left flank than the right, for a change, and who acts accordingly.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:31
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I really like this analogy. Ze, I usually take umbrage with your post's self righteous nature, but your attitude towards booker I think is the right one to have. I will try and adopt it more when working with people that I don't exactly trust intentions, this thread included. um, nice backhanded compliment i guess?
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Sep 11, 2017 19:32
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I will care about them moving the right direction once they show that was the right decision.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:33
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Jizz Festival posted:I think after what happened in California people are a little skeptical that the democrats will actually move forward on medicare for all when they have the power to do it. I lived in CA at the time, and I am not exactly sure what you wanted from that bill. It was A single payer bill, but not exactly a good one. I would much rather move for a MFA than sand up a new system with no structure. Ardennes posted:In all honesty, I think the only way forward is regime change in the Democratic Party itself. Otherwise, it will always be a game of bait and switch and in all honesty, I think we are running out of time (looking at the damage being done). Regime change is already happening. slowly, and needs to be faster, but democrats are definately going through a change right now. I am not sure just changing the top people is enough as we also have to change the voters.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:33
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I really like this analogy. Ze, I usually take umbrage with your post's self righteous nature, but your attitude towards booker I think is the right one to have. I will try and adopt it more when working with people that I don't exactly trust intentions, this thread included. Jesus christ it's like you literally can't write a post without whining about something in it.
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Sep 11, 2017 19:34
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