War in the Pacific Day by Day - Imperial Edition

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ModernMajorGeneral: Jun 25, 2010

Alternate history Germany winning the war with nukes falls into the trap of most "Germans win" alternate history, namely that yeah of course Germany can win WW2 if its social structure and geopolitical situation are unrecognisable compared to reality.

You need a hyper competent Germany (ie. no Nazis) with psychic powers to know that atomic weapons have actual potential enough to justify sinking like 10% of their military budget into them, then probably a situation in which they never attack the USSR and a negotiated peace with the Western Allies is realistic, making the concept of Germany winning "WW2" meaningless.

# ? Sep 11, 2017 16:14

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# ? May 17, 2024 02:00

Ikasuhito: Sep 29, 2013; Haram as Fuck.

ModernMajorGeneral posted:

Alternate history Germany winning the war with nukes falls into the trap of most "Germans win" alternate history, namely that yeah of course Germany can win WW2 if its social structure and geopolitical situation are unrecognisable compared to reality.

You need a hyper competent Germany (ie. no Nazis) with psychic powers to know that atomic weapons have actual potential enough to justify sinking like 10% of their military budget into them, then probably a situation in which they never attack the USSR and a negotiated peace with the Western Allies is realistic, making the concept of Germany winning "WW2" meaningless.

Yes, but what if-( Wehraboo wall of text)

# ? Sep 11, 2017 16:25

Mikl: Nov 8, 2009; Vote shit sandwich or the shit sandwich gets it!

Ikasuhito posted:

Yes, but what if-( Wehraboo wall of text)

I just want you to know, I appreciated the term "Wehraboo".

# ? Sep 11, 2017 16:55

Mikl: Nov 8, 2009; Vote shit sandwich or the shit sandwich gets it!

Also speaking of Nazi incompetence, we can't not mention the Ludendorff bridge.

Wikipedia posted:

A number of command changes in February and early March complicated German command of the Rhine crossings. Before the U.S. advance on the Rhine, the 22 road and 25 railroad bridges across the Rhine were the responsibility of the German Wehrkreis, or military districts. These soldiers did not report to an Army command but to the military arm of the Nazi Party, the Waffen-SS. During February, responsibility for the Ludendorff Bridge was transferred from Wehrkreis VI to Wehrkreis XII. In late February, German forces were reeling backwards and they had instituted a number of command changes to try to stem the Allied advance. Responsibility for the bridges, including the Ludendorff Bridge, was shifted to the Army, although the Wehrkreis officers tried to retain their command authority. The anti-aircraft units around the bridges did not report to the army, the Wehrkreis or the Waffen SS, but to the Luftwaffe.

On 1 March during U.S. Operation Grenade, the Fifth Panzer and Fifteenth Armies switched zones and responsibility for the bridges. Lt. Gen. Walter Botsch, Commander of LIII Armeekorps, was assigned to defend the Bonn-Remagen area.[6] He visited the Rhineland to inspect the troops and on 5 March found that the Ludendorff Bridge was defended by only 36 men, most of them convalescents recovering from injuries, along with a few engineers and anti-aircraft gun crews. Botsch promised Captain Willi Bratge, the combat commander for the bridge, that he would send a battalion of men to help defend the bridge, but his request was turned down. He also requested without success laborers, additional explosives, radios, and signal equipment. He was promised a heavy anti-aircraft battalion, but it never arrived.

When retreating Germans informed Bratge on the evening of 6 March that the Americans were nearing Remagen, Bratge tried to contact Botsch, unaware that he had been reassigned.

It would have been logical to fall back to the east side of the Rhine and regroup, but Hitler absolutely refused to allow a retreat and irrationally demanded that his Army recapture the territory it had lost. Units that were threatened with the possibility of being overrun or surrounded could not fall back to a more defensible position. To protect themselves from Hitler's wrath, a court-martial and a firing squad, commanders falsified reports to cover actual losses. To shift the blame to someone else, they issued orders that could not be realistically fulfilled. An unintended consequence was that German forces paid less attention to the bridges across the Rhine.

On 6 March, General of the Cavalry Edwin Rothkirch, commanding officer of LIII Armeekorps with responsibility for the Remagen area, wandered into U.S. lines and was captured. In the midst of this confusion, General der Infanterie Otto Hitzfeld, the new commanding officer of LXVII Corps, was told at 1:00 am on 7 March that he was now responsible for defending the Ludendorff Bridge. Hitzfeld dispatched his adjutant, Major Hans Scheller, to take command of Remagen. Scheller left at 3:00 am and took a radio unit of eight men but during their 64-kilometer (40 mi) trip they had to route around American tanks and ran low on gas, forcing them to detour further so they could refuel. The radio unit got separated and Scheller didn't arrive until 11:15 am, less than two hours before the Americans. Bratge was at first relieved when Scheller announced he was assuming command, but then learned that Scheller had not brought the battalion of reinforcements with him that Botsch had promised to send.

On the afternoon of 7 March 1945, Lt. Col. Leonard Engeman led Task Force Engemen towards Remagen, a small village of about 5,000 residents on the Rhine with the objective of capturing the town. [...] At 12:56, scouts from 89th Reconnaissance Squadron arrived on a hill on the north side of Remagen overlooking the village and were astonished to see that the Ludendorff Bridge was still standing. It was the only one that the Germans had not yet blown up in advance of the Allied armies' advance.

Soon after the American troops arrived on the ridge overlooking Remagen, German forces on the west bank near the town were alerted to the approaching enemy armor and raced back across the bridge. Bratge wanted to demolish the bridge as early as possible to avoid capture, but Bratge had to first get written authorization from Major Hans Scheller, who had only assumed command at 11:15 am. Written permission was required because on 14�15 October 1944, an American bomb had struck the chamber containing the demolition charges on the Mulheim Bridge in Cologne, prematurely destroying the bridge. Hitler was angered by this incident and ordered those "responsible" for the destruction of the Mulheim Bridge to be court-martialed. He also ordered that demolition explosives should not be laid in place until the very last moment, when the Allies were within 5 miles (8.0 km) of the bridge. The bridges should only be demolished following an order in writing from the officer in charge, and only as a last resort and at the last possible moment. This order left officers responsible for destroying bridges nervous about both the consequences if they blew up the bridge too soon and if they failed to blow it up at all.

Captain Karl Friesenhahn was the technical or bridge commander and in charge of the demolition charges. At 2:00 pm, as the first elements of the U.S. forces came close to the western approach, he detonated a charge under the stone archway that connected the approach embankment with the bridge, blowing a 9.1-meter (30 ft) crater in the road bed, hoping it would slow down tanks and infantry. Scheller and Bratge entered the railroad tunnel where the electric switch controlling the detonators was located. Friesenhahn followed them, but before he could get to the tunnel, the concussion from an exploding shell knocked him unconscious. He regained his senses 15 minutes later and continued towards the tunnel. Bratge yelled at Friesenhahn to blow up the bridge. Friesenhahn replied they had to get the order in writing from Scheller, who was at the other end of the 1,200-foot-long (370 m) tunnel that curved at almost 90� under Erpeler Ley. Bratge ran to find Scheller, got the order in writing, and when he returned to tell Friesenhahn to detonate the charges, Friesenhahn in turn required Bratge to give him the order in writing.

At 3:20 pm, Friesenhahn made the last connections to the detonator and twisted the handle, but nothing happened. He tried again and all they heard was the sound of American shells hitting the area around them. Corporal Anton Faust volunteered to leave the tunnel under Erpeler Ley to manually light the primer cord to the explosives attached to the eastern pier that had been placed earlier in the day. He ran 90 yd (82 m) through the small arms fire, exploding tank shells, smoke, and haze, lit the primer, and ran back to the tunnel.

Just as the Americans approached, Corporal Faust set off the secondary explosives. Both the Germans and the Americans watched the smoke and haze clear from the explosion and were shocked to see the bridge was still standing. Only the charge on the southeast pier, two-thirds of the way across, had exploded, but the weak industrial explosive had failed to bring down the well-built steel bridge.

In the end the bridge was captured by the Americans, and it's agreed that the German failure to blow it up significantly shortened the war.

# ? Sep 11, 2017 17:48

Reuben Sandwich: Jan 27, 2007

Mikl posted:

Also speaking of Nazi incompetence, we can't not mention the Ludendorff bridge.

In the end the bridge was captured by the Americans, and it's agreed that the German failure to blow it up significantly shortened the war.

What happened to the Germans involved was something out of the finale of Casino .

# ? Sep 11, 2017 18:11

frankenfreak: Feb 16, 2007; I SCORED 85% ON A QUIZ ABOUT MONDAY NIGHT RAW AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS LOUSY TEXT

#bastionboogerbrigade

Mikl posted:

Also speaking of Nazi incompetence, we can't not mention the Ludendorff bridge.

In the end the bridge was captured by the Americans, and it's agreed that the German failure to blow it up significantly shortened the war.

They should make a movie out of that story!

# ? Sep 11, 2017 18:35

3 DONG HORSE: May 22, 2008; I'd like to thank Satan for everything he's done for this organization

A WW2 comedy movie would be a nice change of pace

# ? Sep 11, 2017 18:37

HannibalBarca: Sep 11, 2016; History shows, again and again, how nature points out the folly of man.

3 DONG HORSE posted:

A WW2 comedy movie would be a nice change of pace

On a similar note, If I ever become fabulously wealthy I'm gonna plow millions of dollars into an absurd comedic anti-epic film about the journey of the Russian Fleet to Tsushima.

# ? Sep 11, 2017 18:48

Sad King Billy: Jan 27, 2006; Thats three of ours innit...to one of yours. You know mate I really think we ought to even up the average!

HannibalBarca posted:

On a similar note, If I ever become fabulously wealthy I'm gonna plow millions of dollars into an absurd comedic anti-epic film about the journey of the Russian Fleet to Tsushima.

Where they mistake British trawlers in the North Sea for Japanese torpedo boats.

Fact is truly stranger than fiction.

# ? Sep 11, 2017 20:14

HannibalBarca: Sep 11, 2016; History shows, again and again, how nature points out the folly of man.

Sad King Billy posted:

Where they mistake British trawlers in the North Sea for Japanese torpedo boats.

Fact is truly stranger than fiction.

Everything about that story is absurd. In addition to nearly starting a war with Britain, they also accidentally severed the trans-Atlantic telegraph cables off the coast of Spain. The Russian admiral was a hilarious figure, who would fire live ammunition (!) over the bows of his own ships (!!) when they veered off course, and would toss his binoculars overboard whenever he got angry (naturally, the crew ensured an entire crate of binoculars was provided to the flagship specifically for the Admiral to trash). He also eventually gave up on informing the admiralty of the route his ships were taking to the far east and refused to cooperate with the commander of the fleet he was slated to rendezvous with in the Pacific.

# ? Sep 11, 2017 20:38

Mikl: Nov 8, 2009; Vote shit sandwich or the shit sandwich gets it!

Sad King Billy posted:

Where they mistake British trawlers in the North Sea for Japanese torpedo boats.

Fact is truly stranger than fiction.

...In the North Sea? How do you even do that? I can understand being paranoid, but they were literally thousands of kilometres away from Japanese waters :psyduck:

# ? Sep 11, 2017 20:38

HannibalBarca: Sep 11, 2016; History shows, again and again, how nature points out the folly of man.

Mikl posted:

...In the North Sea? How do you even do that? I can understand being paranoid, but they were literally thousands of kilometres away from Japanese waters

naturally, in addition to killing some British fishermen, some Russian ships opened fire on other Russian ships during the same incident as well :v:

# ? Sep 11, 2017 20:40

Saint Celestine: Dec 17, 2008; Lay a fire within your soul and another between your hands, and let both be your weapons.
For one is faith and the other is victory and neither may ever be put out.
- Saint Sabbat, Lessons; Grimey Drawer

HannibalBarca posted:

naturally, in addition to killing some British fishermen, some Russian ships opened fire on other Russian ships during the same incident as well

At the risk of someone chiming in to say "didnt happen", the internet's account of the Dogger Bank incident is hilarious...

"Russian ships shot at each other: the cruisers Aurora and Dmitrii Donskoi were taken for Japanese warships and bombarded by seven battleships sailing in formation, damaging both ships and killing a chaplain and at least one sailor and severely wounding another. During the pandemonium, several Russian ships signalled torpedoes had hit them, and on board the battleship Borodino rumours spread that the ship was being boarded by the Japanese, with some crews donning life vests and lying prone on the deck, and others drawing cutlasses. More serious losses to both sides were only avoided by the extremely low quality of Russian gunnery, with the battleship Oryol reportedly firing more than 500 shells without hitting anything. After twenty minutes' firing the fishermen saw a blue light signal on one of the warships, the order to cease firing."

Edit: It gets better...

"From Vigo, the main Russian fleet then approached Tangiers, Morocco, and lost contact with the Kamchatka for several days. The Kamchatka eventually rejoined the fleet and claimed that she had engaged three Japanese warships and fired over 300 shells: the ships she had actually fired at were a Swedish merchantman, a German trawler, and a French schooner. "

So had Russian gunnery been better, they would have damaged their own ships, and caused diplomatic incidents with Britain, Sweden, Germany, and France. Thats actually kind of impressive.

:psyduck:

Saint Celestine fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Sep 11, 2017

# ? Sep 11, 2017 21:19

KYOON GRIFFEY JR: Apr 12, 2010; Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

Japan and Great Britain had a (defensive, multiparty) alliance at the time, Japan was a very major customer of British private shipbuilding interests, and the Japanese were loving in love with torpedo boats particularly at night, so it was not like, the absolute most insane thing that could have happened. There was some plausibility to the whole concept, probably more than it sounds like now in 2017.

it was pretty crazy though, and like... realize your mistake eh

# ? Sep 11, 2017 21:23

Lakedaimon: Jan 11, 2007

I think I was reading some book about North Africa and during the chapter talking about the Italian army, it was stressed that the poor standard of education in the country was a primary reason they fared so poorly in battle. Something like ninety percent of soldiers conscripted from the countryside did not know the difference between left and right, and the underwhelming officer corps certainly wasnt up to the task of turning these raw recruits into quality fighting men. That figure always seemed a bit astonishing to me, but i'm from a much different world.

# ? Sep 11, 2017 23:58

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

Mikl posted:

In the end the [Ludendorff] bridge was captured by the Americans, and it's agreed that the German failure to blow it up significantly shortened the war.

That seems like an extremely dubious claim, given that the Soviets were 70 km from Berlin a month before the bridge was captured.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 00:35

Lord Koth: Jan 8, 2012

HannibalBarca posted:

Everything about that story is absurd. In addition to nearly starting a war with Britain, they also accidentally severed the trans-Atlantic telegraph cables off the coast of Spain. The Russian admiral was a hilarious figure, who would fire live ammunition (!) over the bows of his own ships (!!) when they veered off course, and would toss his binoculars overboard whenever he got angry (naturally, the crew ensured an entire crate of binoculars was provided to the flagship specifically for the Admiral to trash). He also eventually gave up on informing the admiralty of the route his ships were taking to the far east and refused to cooperate with the commander of the fleet he was slated to rendezvous with in the Pacific.

As a note regarding this, the person who organized said reinforcing ship was the same person the admiral of the initial fleet had kicked out of the fleet after the trawler incident. So in essence, the admiral had used the trawler incident to remove a captain he really didn't like from the fleet (a petty act) and, after being put in charge or organizing reinforcements, said captain proceeded to choose all the oldest and most derelict "warships" he could get away with as part of said reinforcing fleet (somehow an even pettier act).

As an added note of black humor, they were met with a naval supply ship while docked in Madagascar. This lifted spirits, because one thing the fleet needed was more shells, since a large percentage of the fleet's total had been expended against those terrible trawlers. So of course the supply ship wasn't carrying those. No, instead it helpfully delivered to the fleet 12,000 pairs of fur boots and a matching number of winter coats. In Madagascar. In spring.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 00:44

zetamind2000: Nov 6, 2007; ~~I'm an alien.~~

HannibalBarca posted:

Everything about that story is absurd. In addition to nearly starting a war with Britain, they also accidentally severed the trans-Atlantic telegraph cables off the coast of Spain. The Russian admiral was a hilarious figure, who would fire live ammunition (!) over the bows of his own ships (!!) when they veered off course, and would toss his binoculars overboard whenever he got angry (naturally, the crew ensured an entire crate of binoculars was provided to the flagship specifically for the Admiral to trash). He also eventually gave up on informing the admiralty of the route his ships were taking to the far east and refused to cooperate with the commander of the fleet he was slated to rendezvous with in the Pacific.

Saint Celestine posted:

At the risk of someone chiming in to say "didnt happen", the internet's account of the Dogger Bank incident is hilarious...

"Russian ships shot at each other: the cruisers Aurora and Dmitrii Donskoi were taken for Japanese warships and bombarded by seven battleships sailing in formation, damaging both ships and killing a chaplain and at least one sailor and severely wounding another. During the pandemonium, several Russian ships signalled torpedoes had hit them, and on board the battleship Borodino rumours spread that the ship was being boarded by the Japanese, with some crews donning life vests and lying prone on the deck, and others drawing cutlasses. More serious losses to both sides were only avoided by the extremely low quality of Russian gunnery, with the battleship Oryol reportedly firing more than 500 shells without hitting anything. After twenty minutes' firing the fishermen saw a blue light signal on one of the warships, the order to cease firing."

Edit: It gets better...

"From Vigo, the main Russian fleet then approached Tangiers, Morocco, and lost contact with the Kamchatka for several days. The Kamchatka eventually rejoined the fleet and claimed that she had engaged three Japanese warships and fired over 300 shells: the ships she had actually fired at were a Swedish merchantman, a German trawler, and a French schooner. "

So had Russian gunnery been better, they would have damaged their own ships, and caused diplomatic incidents with Britain, Sweden, Germany, and France. Thats actually kind of impressive.

Lord Koth posted:

As a note regarding this, the person who organized said reinforcing ship was the same person the admiral of the initial fleet had kicked out of the fleet after the trawler incident. So in essence, the admiral had used the trawler incident to remove a captain he really didn't like from the fleet (a petty act) and, after being put in charge or organizing reinforcements, said captain proceeded to choose all the oldest and most derelict "warships" he could get away with as part of said reinforcing fleet (somehow an even pettier act).

As an added note of black humor, they were met with a naval supply ship while docked in Madagascar. This lifted spirits, because one thing the fleet needed was more shells, since a large percentage of the fleet's total had been expended against those terrible trawlers. So of course the supply ship wasn't carrying those. No, instead it helpfully delivered to the fleet 12,000 pairs of fur boots and a matching number of winter coats. In Madagascar. In spring.

There was no way the Russians ever had even the slightest chance of winning the Battle of Tsushima.

zetamind2000 fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Sep 12, 2017

# ? Sep 12, 2017 01:17

MA-Horus: Dec 3, 2006; I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.

I wrote a paper on the battle of the Tsushima straights for a 4th year Russian History class

tl;dr the Russians were totally hosed from the moment they left port. Outclassed in every conceivable fashion by the Japanese in quality of ships, quality of gunnery, quality of command. Add to that a totally insane voyage from the Baltic to Japan, and you have the most one-sided naval encounter since Manilla Bay.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 01:29

TheDemon: Dec 11, 2006; _{...on the plus side I'm feeling much more angry now than I expected so this totally helps me get in character.}

RZApublican posted:

There was no way the Russians ever had even the slightest chance of winning the Battle of Tsushima.

�Yesterday I began to prepare for battle. My preparations were very simple. I opened a trunk, and without more ado thrust in everything�icons, letters, and photographs of you.�

- Eugene S. Politovsky, Engineer-in-Chief, Second Pacific Squadron, in a letter to his wife

You can read about him here: http://www.allworldwars.com/From-Libau-to-Tsushima-by-Eugene-Politovsky.html

# ? Sep 12, 2017 01:32

David Corbett: Feb 6, 2008; Courage, my friends; 'tis not too late to build a better world.

Lakedaimon posted:

I think I was reading some book about North Africa and during the chapter talking about the Italian army, it was stressed that the poor standard of education in the country was a primary reason they fared so poorly in battle. Something like ninety percent of soldiers conscripted from the countryside did not know the difference between left and right, and the underwhelming officer corps certainly wasnt up to the task of turning these raw recruits into quality fighting men. That figure always seemed a bit astonishing to me, but i'm from a much different world.

This feels a bit dubious to me. They're from the Italian countryside, not Middle-Earth. I'd understand certain difficulties with practical literacy and numeracy, or certain mathematical functions, but incapability to differentiate between left and right strains credulity.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 01:54

A Festivus Miracle: Dec 19, 2012; I have come to discourse on the profound inequities of the American political system.

Romel did say that Italian soldiers were courageous fighting men, it was that their officers were terrible.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 03:26

Grey Hunter: Oct 17, 2007; Hero of the soviet union.
Accidental destroyer of planets

Bugger off!

Here we go again!

What's this? Betty's? With FIGHTER SUPPORT? Its a Miracle! Praise be the Emperor.

We lose three planes, but that's a nice sized tanker on fire!

Twice in one day? And a confirmed kill?
Its Xmas already, isn't it.

The AA gunners here do a great job!

Things look a but bloodier here compared to the main screens, but they often do.

We got a good kill though!

# ? Sep 12, 2017 05:05

ModernMajorGeneral: Jun 25, 2010

David Corbett posted:

This feels a bit dubious to me. They're from the Italian countryside, not Middle-Earth. I'd understand certain difficulties with practical literacy and numeracy, or certain mathematical functions, but incapability to differentiate between left and right strains credulity.

Maybe the soldiers felt Italian fascism confused the boundaries between left-wing and right-wing politics, and it got lost in translation :v:

# ? Sep 12, 2017 05:15

Lakedaimon: Jan 11, 2007

David Corbett posted:

This feels a bit dubious to me. They're from the Italian countryside, not Middle-Earth. I'd understand certain difficulties with practical literacy and numeracy, or certain mathematical functions, but incapability to differentiate between left and right strains credulity.

I'll have to see if the book is still at my folks house.

In the meantime I did already find this quote from a different book:

"Many Italian recruits were so unlettered that drill instructors tied bandannas around their left arms to teach them left from right".

Maybe its just a cultural thing where that kind of distinction wasnt really necessary on the farm.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 05:38

3 DONG HORSE: May 22, 2008; I'd like to thank Satan for everything he's done for this organization

Marching in step is really weird if you're not used to ever coordinating yourself.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 06:27

Slim Jim Pickens: Jan 16, 2012

Nah, it was just language issues. Italian dialects are wild, and they were still in full force in the '40s. Yes, to the point that "left" and "right" wouldn't have clear analogues

Slim Jim Pickens fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Sep 12, 2017

# ? Sep 12, 2017 06:31

mllaneza: Apr 28, 2007; Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952

David Corbett posted:

This feels a bit dubious to me. They're from the Italian countryside, not Middle-Earth. I'd understand certain difficulties with practical literacy and numeracy, or certain mathematical functions, but incapability to differentiate between left and right strains credulity.

It's probably another "gee" and "haw" situation. That supposedly cropped up in the ACW when farm boys who were used to yelling at mules had to do formation drill.

e.

BUG JUG posted:

This would be a fascinating mod.

I've flown the IL-2 campaign all the way to Berlin. Going the other way in Stukas up to 410s would probably also be awesome.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 07:16

OddObserver: Apr 3, 2009

Saint Celestine posted:

At the risk of someone chiming in to say "didnt happen", the internet's account of the Dogger Bank incident is hilarious...

"Russian ships shot at each other: the cruisers Aurora and Dmitrii Donskoi were taken for Japanese warships and bombarded by seven battleships sailing in formation...

Aurora BTW would survive the war, become rather famous in the October/Communist revolution, as firing the shot signaling the start of the Bolshevik coup against the Provisional Government.

It's still around as a museum ship, too (after extensive repairs, and even apparently being raised after being sunk at dock in WWII?) --- wikipedia pic:

# ? Sep 12, 2017 13:39

Ghost of Mussolini: Jun 26, 2011

Slim Jim Pickens posted:

Nah, it was just language issues. Italian dialects are wild, and they were still in full force in the '40s. Yes, to the point that "left" and "right" wouldn't have clear analogues

Exactly, its not that these people were extremely backwards, its that officers would be speaking Italian (Italian as you would expect it and hear it today), and some fellow from a random village would be speaking a dialect that would have differences with someone who came from the next few towns over, let alone another province or region. Officers are either going to be from an aristocratic/rich background, or from upper-middle class urban areas. In either case, they're not going to be speaking the same thing that a farmhand is used to communicate in. There was a massive disconnect in communications between those giving orders and those receiving them, which certainly didn't help.

Conscription in Italy was actually really useful in terms of teaching Italian and improving literacy. Television was a big factor in suppressing dialects, as people would speak "standard" Italian on it. Even today you can find differences in what people speak as Italian throughout Italy, and you can legitimately not understand things if you speak to people who are really old or live in an area were there are still strong local languages/dialects.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 16:35

KYOON GRIFFEY JR: Apr 12, 2010; Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

OddObserver posted:

Aurora BTW would survive the war, become rather famous in the October/Communist revolution, as firing the shot signaling the start of the Bolshevik coup against the Provisional Government.

It's still around as a museum ship, too (after extensive repairs, and even apparently being raised after being sunk at dock in WWII?) --- wikipedia pic:

Quite a bit of French influence in that design. I'd like to check it out at some point.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 17:07

OpenlyEvilJello: Dec 28, 2009

11 September 1943

US destroyer Rowan, sank rapidly after being torpedoed by E-boats off Salerno.

Japanese minesweeper W.16, mined south of Makassar.

The Italian squadron that had remained behind to rescue survivors of the Roma attempted to deposit the survivors at the Balearic ports of Port Mahon and Pollensa, but were refused by Spanish authorities. The light cruiser Attilio Regolo had sufficient fuel to proceed to Gibraltar but the six accompanying escorts did not. Three destroyers, Mitragliere, Fuciliere, and Carabiniere, were interned at Port Mahon. The torpedo boat Orsa was interned at Pollensa; the torpedo boat Pegaso and escort destroyer Impetuoso were scuttled there rather than be interned.

The Italian torpedo boats T.6 and T.8 had originally been built between 1912 and 1915 for the Austro-Hungarian navy, then transferred to Yugoslavia, and seized by Italy in 1941. The former was scuttled off Rimini on account of lacking fuel to reach an Allied port. The latter was sunk near Dubrovnik by German air attack.

Italian destroyer Quentino Sella, torpedoed by German E-boat south of Venice.

Italian warships captured by German forces:
Old cruiser Cattaro, at Pola; renamed Niobe.
Torpedo boats Giuseppe la Masa and Partenope, under repair at Naples, where they remained when the Allies captured the city.
Corvette Vespa, sabotaged at Pozzuoli and repaired by the Germans at Genoa.
Minelayer Viesti, at Naples; scuttled when the Allies captured the city.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 20:41

sullat: Jan 9, 2012

quote:

No, instead it helpfully delivered to the fleet 12,000 pairs of fur boots and a matching number of winter coats. In Madagascar. In spring.

The linked diary seems to blame perfidious Albion for that; says they wouldn't let them ship munitions through Suez.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 20:46

Murgos: Oct 21, 2010

Seeing that pic of the Aurora makes me wonder if there are any pre-dreadnaught battleships hanging around anywhere as museums?

# ? Sep 12, 2017 23:51

glynnenstein: Feb 18, 2014

Murgos posted:

Seeing that pic of the Aurora makes me wonder if there are any pre-dreadnaught battleships hanging around anywhere as museums?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_battleship_Mikasa

If I ever make it out to Japan...

# ? Sep 12, 2017 23:57

McNally: Sep 13, 2007; Ask me about Proposition 305

Do you like muskets?

Murgos posted:

Seeing that pic of the Aurora makes me wonder if there are any pre-dreadnaught battleships hanging around anywhere as museums?

One.

efb, maybe I should refresh before replying next time.

# ? Sep 13, 2017 00:00

goatface: Dec 5, 2007; I had a video of that when I was about 6.

I remember it being shit.; Grimey Drawer

I think there's a full-size ironclad-with-sails somewhere. Probably would only class as a cruiser in size though.

# ? Sep 13, 2017 00:10

Acebuckeye13: Nov 2, 2010; Ultra Carp

goatface posted:

I think there's a full-size ironclad-with-sails somewhere. Probably would only class as a cruiser in size though.

You thinking of the HMS Warrior?

There's also the USS Olympia, though it's only a protected cruiser.

# ? Sep 13, 2017 00:30

goatface: Dec 5, 2007; I had a video of that when I was about 6.

I remember it being shit.; Grimey Drawer

Acebuckeye13 posted:

You thinking of the HMS Warrior?

Yes. With proper muzzle loading cannons for old fashioned broadsides and everything.

e: It's bigger than I thought it was. ~9kt for the mid 19th century is meaty.

goatface fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Sep 13, 2017

# ? Sep 13, 2017 00:37

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# ? May 17, 2024 02:00

Saint Celestine: Dec 17, 2008; Lay a fire within your soul and another between your hands, and let both be your weapons.
For one is faith and the other is victory and neither may ever be put out.
- Saint Sabbat, Lessons; Grimey Drawer

Should've saved the Goeben...

# ? Sep 13, 2017 01:08

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Let's Play! > War in the Pacific Day by Day - Imperial Edition

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