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Canemacar posted:Eh. In the interview posted just above where they talk about making Mike a junkie, they list his defining characteristic as his physical strength. yeah that part was more eyebrow-raising to me than the drugs part.
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Sep 11, 2017 23:01
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LegionAreI posted:The direction for Mike in that article makes me a bit uncomfortable because they could get really racist with it if they go crazy homeless crackhead, etc. Maybe it'll be fine but knowing Hollywood I have have a sneaking feeling about it ....
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Sep 11, 2017 23:02
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Even setting aside the racial stuff, I'm not a fan of how Mike is introduced with his father pushing this "kill or be killed" mentality on him and then the big climax to his arc is him saving the day by killing another human being. Like if the point were to illustrate a dysfunctional cycle that he's a part of that would be one thing but that's not really the impression I got.
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Sep 11, 2017 23:04
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Wasn't Mike one of the nerdiest? Like drat, he became a librarian. This is getting weirder and weirder.
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Sep 11, 2017 23:08
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Tired Moritz posted:Wasn't Mike one of the nerdiest? Like drat, he became a librarian. Yeah. He's a big history nerd even before the Pennywise stuff. If any of the Losers were the muscle, it was Big Bill. King mentions a dozen times how hard it was to get Silver up and going.
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Sep 11, 2017 23:14
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I've made my feelings on the movie pretty clear, and I admit there's some issues with Mike, but overall there are a lot of factors not being discussed. Part of the movie is this uncovering of a violent darkness that the town chooses to ignore. Making Mike a librarian would discount the fact that he has to live this violence, for the other kids it's just being bullied. Would you expect the kid to research his own oppression when he lives it? Consider the frankness with which Mike is able to speak at the parade, this is a fact of life for him ("Get out of our town!") as opposed to the other kids who are stunned by what their parent's can't protect them from. Similarly, the conversation at the beginning mirrors our insane ongoing debate as to whether it's okay to punch Nazis or not (it is). Then there's the profession Mike helps out with, an allusion to Charles Burnett's film. Finally consider his vision, which is a blending of Holocaust imagery combined with the lingering memories of black residences and churches burning to the ground, combined to form a visual trail referencing events too many people deny happening. To me, there's no more stereotyping of what Mike is capable of improvising during a fight than there is to what Bev is able to accomplish with a pipe, but they are loaded with visual metaphors of overcoming their respective bigoted torments. It still staggers me, when I lived in South Carolina, I was able to walk barely a couple of miles before hitting a firebombed black church. Anywho, I'm mostly down with how Mike is presented though I understand the conflict. If they opt down the path discussed for chapter 2 I'm going to be considerably less receptive.
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Sep 11, 2017 23:22
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Calling Bev a damsel in distress, which is a complaint I've seen in a lot of discussions online, is not only inaccurate, it's a disservice to the strongest and most developed character in the film. Bev is the strongest of all of them, she doesn't fear IT like the others do, no doubt from having to live with her father all these years. She confronts her father and shows that she's not afraid of him anymore. She's the only one who doesn't raise a hand when they are going into the house. It seems Pennywise took her because she was the strongest and knew the others, most of whom are terrified and reluctant, would come for her. If Pennywise had taken, say, Eddie, it would have just eaten him because Eddie was so terrified. IT doesn't eat Bev because she stands up to it and show she's afraid. You can even see this in the film when Pennywise smells her and can't detect a trace of fear on her— Skarsgård's subtle, disappointed reaction is one of his best in the film. Pennywise takes Bev out of its own fear of the fearless.
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Sep 11, 2017 23:29
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this is kind of missing the forest for the trees. there's a long period in the movie where mike is just out completely. he shou;d've kept his role as the knowledge guy, ben already had other character stuff. he feels like he's just in the movie because he was in the book.clown shoes posted:is not only inaccurate, it's a disservice nah.
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Sep 11, 2017 23:29
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Just in case anyone doesn't bother to read the article they're not saying he's a literal junkie, they're using the term metaphorically, as in "news junkie".
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Sep 11, 2017 23:35
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I kinda hope the adult sections of the sequel are just framing and the actual movie is all flashbacks to stuff like the Black Spot, the Bradley Gang shootout, and the smoke hole. I would love to see IT'S arrival. King made that scene so intense and fascinating.
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Sep 11, 2017 23:38
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Even setting aside the racial stuff, I'm not a fan of how Mike is introduced with his father pushing this "kill or be killed" mentality on him and then the big climax to his arc is him saving the day by killing another human being. Like if the point were to illustrate a dysfunctional cycle that he's a part of that would be one thing but that's not really the impression I got. His parents died in a house fire.
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Sep 12, 2017 00:01
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ZeeBoi posted:His parents died in a house fire. And I bet a certain section of the population knows that the fire was not an accident.
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Sep 12, 2017 00:17
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the flames were orange...like the pom poms on a clown suit...
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Sep 12, 2017 00:20
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clown shoes posted:Calling Bev a damsel in distress, which is a complaint I've seen in a lot of discussions online, is not only inaccurate, it's a disservice to the strongest and most developed character in the film. Bev is the strongest of all of them, she doesn't fear IT like the others do, no doubt from having to live with her father all these years. She confronts her father and shows that she's not afraid of him anymore. She's the only one who doesn't raise a hand when they are going into the house. It seems Pennywise took her because she was the strongest and knew the others, most of whom are terrified and reluctant, would come for her. If Pennywise had taken, say, Eddie, it would have just eaten him because Eddie was so terrified. IT doesn't eat Bev because she stands up to it and show she's afraid. You can even see this in the film when Pennywise smells her and can't detect a trace of fear on her— Skarsgård's subtle, disappointed reaction is one of his best in the film. Pennywise takes Bev out of its own fear of the fearless. Bingo. Most of the usual suspects out there peddling the 'damsel in distress' nonsense are not sophisticated enough to understand this. Bev and Pennywise were easily the best parts of this film IMO.
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Sep 12, 2017 00:23
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on the contrary,
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Sep 12, 2017 00:28
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Sounds like a whole of words magic to justify making the only female character a damsel.
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Sep 12, 2017 00:34
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Groovelord Neato posted:on the contrary, Yes, we know you and a few other goons wanted to see the Losers Club run a train on Beverly instead of the kidnapping change, but thankfully, Hollywood still finds child porn repulsive.
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Sep 12, 2017 00:34
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I mean, i kinda get them wanting to give Ben something other than just being The Fat Kid, and it couldve been without any sacrifice to Mike if he just wouldve gotten a little more screentime
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Sep 12, 2017 00:34
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RedSpider posted:Yes, we know you and a few other goons wanted to see the Losers Club run a train on Beverly instead, but thankfully, Hollywood still finds child porn repulsive. Mordred Deschain parachute account spotted
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Sep 12, 2017 00:35
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RedSpider posted:Yes, we know you and a few other goons wanted to see the Losers Club run a train on Beverly instead of the kidnapping change, but thankfully, Hollywood still finds child porn repulsive. Nice strawman
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Sep 12, 2017 00:35
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RedSpider posted:Yes, we know you and a few other goons wanted to see the Losers Club run a train on Beverly instead of the kidnapping change, but thankfully, Hollywood still finds child porn repulsive. i don't think the guy defending the damselling gets to do this lol
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Sep 12, 2017 00:36
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Just saw It today and really enjoyed it. One quick question from a minor detail; was the cat that Bowers almost shot the same cat that watched Pennywise kill Georgie? Looked like the same cat to me.
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Sep 12, 2017 00:39
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like it's nice that you guys were so engrossed in the story but did you forget that in reality, it's a bunch of people nodding in a writing room thinking that it's fine to make the only prominent female characters a damsel and the only black kid a killer? movie still good tho
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Sep 12, 2017 00:45
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Groovelord Neato posted:this is kind of missing the forest for the trees. there's a long period in the movie where mike is just out completely. he shou;d've kept his role as the knowledge guy, ben already had other character stuff. he feels like he's just in the movie because he was in the book. If you completely discount the visual storytelling, Chosen Jacob's confident performance, and that a bunch of closeted 11-year olds in a primarily white Maine town likely wouldn't have a black friend - then you might have a point. The "dirty work" of killing is outsourced to the black community on the edge of town, very much in-line with the north's flavor of racism, and Mike comes more into the story as the kids find a common point of solidarity. Like, there's a whole other set if issues if the knowledge he drops on everyone -has- to come from books. Mike's plenty knowledgeable, as shown in his long parade dialogue. To deal with the other point: clown shoes posted:Calling Bev a damsel in distress, which is a complaint I've seen in a lot of discussions online, is not only inaccurate, it's a disservice to the strongest and most developed character in the film. There's a good bit of overlap between Bev and Mike. They're both the only two characters who identify and deal with the trauma that It manifests as almost straight away. Mike because of his lived experience (telling the story of how his parents died), Bev because of her already learning how to fight back against her father ("You did this to me"). Bill gets it together at the end, but aside from him only Bev and Mike show any kind of strength going against It.
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Sep 12, 2017 00:46
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Punch Drunk Drewsky posted:I've made my feelings on the movie pretty clear, and I admit there's some issues with Mike, but overall there are a lot of factors not being discussed.
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Sep 12, 2017 00:48
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Tired Moritz posted:like it's nice that you guys were so engrossed in the story but did you forget that in reality, it's a bunch of people nodding in a writing room thinking that it's fine to make the only prominent female characters a damsel and the only black kid a killer? No. Bev resists It, Stan isn't able to, Georgie got killed, and that one bully bit it as well on top of who knows how many other people. If you wanna call them all damsels knock yourself out but it's at the cost of Bev's success in the group. On the Mike front, he's fighting back against a literal killer looking to kill him, with no coincidence the killer is the son of a cop, claiming his spot in the town from someone who said he had no place in it.
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Sep 12, 2017 00:50
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Punch Drunk Drewsky posted:If you completely discount the visual storytelling, Chosen Jacob's confident performance, and that a bunch of closeted 11-year olds in a primarily white Maine town likely wouldn't have a black friend - then you might have a point. The "dirty work" of killing is outsourced to the black community on the edge of town, very much in-line with the north's flavor of racism, and Mike comes more into the story as the kids find a common point of solidarity. this has nothing to do with what i said. Punch Drunk Drewsky posted:If you wanna call them all damsels knock yourself out but it's at the cost of Bev's success in the group. it isn't.
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Sep 12, 2017 00:52
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Timeless Appeal posted:I think you're sort of underselling how Mike and his family are in the books. For the kids, Pennywise very much seems like a disruptive force that shakes up their decent but quietly hosed up lives. Mike and his family I feel like are coming at it from a different direction. They know Derry is ultimately a monster. Pennywise is just a part of it. His knowledge of Derry's past makes him a character with no illusions of what Derry is. I don't care how they are in the books. In the movie, Mike takes his lived experience and uses it to inform the group while supplying them with the ammunition they need to defeat It while taking out a bigoted killer along the way. Mike doesn't need to go to the library because he saw firsthand what Derry does to people.
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Sep 12, 2017 00:53
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wizard on a water slide posted:Henry Bowers also gives us that hard F-bomb in his first scene I think that setting the movie in the late 80's made it less likely that the mass murder of a bunch of black people would be believable to get brushed under the rug. Racism wasn't a solved issue in 1989, but racist violence certainly less tolerated then as opposed to less enlightened times like the 1950's or 2017. Tired Moritz posted:Sounds like a whole of words magic to justify making the only female character a damsel. I ran through all those justifications in my head as well before realizing that I was trying to justify something that human beings wrote as part of a movie. IT didn't have to kidnap Bev, they're both characters in a movie written by people. Any justification is just someone seeing the movie and walking the logic backwards to find a way to be comfortable with the only girl being a damsel in distress. Yes, it is v.cool that they made her the strongest against IT, and the fact that "rescuing the girl" is another 80's trope to play on and would definitely be good motivation for kids at that point in their lives, but it's still something written by people.
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Sep 12, 2017 00:53
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Tired Moritz posted:like it's nice that you guys were so engrossed in the story but did you forget that in reality, it's a bunch of people nodding in a writing room thinking that it's fine to make the only prominent female characters a damsel and the only black kid a killer? I don't think you're too bright if you believe Mike was portrayed as a 'killer.' Mike's father was telling him that look, you're surrounded by racism in a predominantly white area (this was the 80s), the odds are stacked against you, and you're going to have to learn how to look out for yourself. He was simply giving his son a serious talk about life and growing up. How goons take this has him becoming OJ Simpson is quite  , but not surprising, nonetheless.
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Sep 12, 2017 00:55
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Punch Drunk Drewsky posted:No. Bev resists It, Stan isn't able to, Georgie got killed, and that one bully bit it as well on top of who knows how many other people. If you wanna call them all damsels knock yourself out but it's at the cost of Bev's success in the group. It could had been anyone other than Bev that got kidnapped. Hell, there wasn't any reason to include a kidnapping plot anyway. Why specifically must it be Bev that got shackled with this? people realize that this is a fictional story, right
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Sep 12, 2017 00:56
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Groovelord Neato posted:this has nothing to do with what i said. Mind explaining yourself then? Because from where I'm reading it sounds like the only knowledge that is beneficial to the group has to come from the library, otherwise it's bad. Groovelord Neato posted:it isn't. It is. Bevs no more a damsel than Georgie, or Stan, or the bully, or any of the others who were killed. It's reductive to call her a damsel when everyone else dies under the same conditions.
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Sep 12, 2017 00:58
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RedSpider posted:I don't think you're too bright if you believe Mike was portrayed as a 'killer.' Mike's father was telling him that look, you're surrounded by racism in a predominantly white area (this was the 80s), the odds are stacked against you, and you're going to have to learn how to look out for yourself. He was simply giving his son a serious talk about life and growing up. considering in the books, there aren't any well pushing, I do think it's weird as hell that this is what they went with. Like didn't Mike have a scene in the book where he almost killed Henry as an adult but realized that doing that would just be him doing It's work? The hardest thing that they ever did was throw rocks at each other, which makes sense since they are, at the end of the day, just a bunch of kids.
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Sep 12, 2017 00:59
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Punch Drunk Drewsky posted:It is. Bevs no more a damsel than Georgie, or Stan, or the bully, or any of the others who were killed. It's reductive to call her a damsel when everyone else dies under the same conditions. incorrect. it shows her the deadlights and uses her as bait. why didn't it just eat her? it was smart enough to kidnap her cuz she's the strongest! it can just grab the rest whenever. i took issue with the fact mike drops out of the movie for an extended period of time. it's poor storytelling. it's why i said it's like he was just put in because he's in the book.
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Sep 12, 2017 00:59
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Tired Moritz posted:Why specifically must it be Bev that got shackled with this? Because Bev was the one who dealt the most damaging blow to It in the house encounter. Recognize the strength, kill the strength, kill the group.
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Sep 12, 2017 00:59
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that's a lot less interesting than the pennywise from the books (and even the miniseries lol) btw.
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Sep 12, 2017 01:01
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Lol if you think Henry is dead.
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Sep 12, 2017 01:01
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Capisano posted:Just saw It today and really enjoyed it. One quick question from a minor detail; was the cat that Bowers almost shot the same cat that watched Pennywise kill Georgie? Looked like the same cat to me. Yeah, I think it is the same cat. But, beware, all of Derry is IT, all the adults and yes, that cat as well. Look at its cat face, up to no good no doubt
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Sep 12, 2017 01:02
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Groovelord Neato posted:incorrect. it shows her the deadlights and uses her as bait. why didn't it just eat her? it was smart enough to kidnap her cuz she's the strongest! To the first: Punch Drunk Drewsky posted:Because Bev was the one who dealt the most damaging blow to It in the house encounter. Recognize the strength, kill the strength, kill the group. It is vindictive and getting revenge on the only one in the group able to hurt it. To the second: Punch Drunk Drewsky posted:a bunch of closeted 11-year olds in a primarily white Maine town likely wouldn't have a black friend Mike is able to inform the crew with knowledge of what Derry is capable of. They welcome him because of his knowledge. Then he's able to bring more to the table against the murdering bully bigot.
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Sep 12, 2017 01:03
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that's still not a response to what i said.
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Sep 12, 2017 01:04
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