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Majorian posted:Exactly. And she's a very smart person, who has offered some pretty insightful commentary in the past. So it's a shame to see her back such a bad strategy going forward, having apparently learned all the wrong lessons from 2016. (or the past decade, for that matter) cargo cult fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Sep 12, 2017 |
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Sep 12, 2017 01:31
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cargo cult posted:she's a multimillionaire and everything she's been saying or dog-whistling (e.g., "coors-light voters" are unreachable) indicate that she's more comfortable with the dems relegated to controlled opposition than she is seeing them move even slightly left in tone or platform The rich are not our friends unless they're willing to stop being rich for the good of the republic.
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Sep 12, 2017 01:34
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Am I missing something about Joy Reid? She's an MSNBC talking head. Why should people give a poo poo about her views more so than Wolf Blitzer or Maddow.
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Sep 12, 2017 01:36
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Thats a good point, wolf blitzer is alot more dangerous than joy reid.
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Sep 12, 2017 01:55
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I drink coors light and I vote the D.
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Sep 12, 2017 01:56
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Teddybear posted:You really think this country is ready to elect a Muslim president in Ellison? I mean, I think we can do a lot, but I don't think that we're there yet. We don't have to elect him, what I mean is, that rather than whatever candidates campaigning as the next Hillary or Bernie, they should ally themselves with people like Keith, who have the chops to appeal to one side or another, without the baggage that will trigger a good portion of the vote to hate them just by association alone.
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Sep 12, 2017 01:58
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shrike82 posted:Am I missing something about Joy Reid? Reid's being touted as a big up-and-comer in the field of political punditry. She has been all over political podcasts and TV talk shows spewing anti-populism poo poo nonstop since the election. Her Daily Show interview was only a couple weeks ago, and holy moly, was it out-of-touch. Also Blitzer is a noted moron, so of course no one gives a poo poo about him. Maddow has overplayed her hand on the Russia investigation ("tax returns!!!"), but she hasn't said anything as horribly deluded as Reid.
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Sep 12, 2017 02:00
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Taerkar posted:That is quite true as well, though most of the states that are subject to the cycle I mentioned are not heavily gerrymandered, but rather have been subject to a decades long history of 'brain drain' as people continue to move to larger cities for jobs. (Or the suburbs). The Muppets On PCP posted:yeah no poo poo, but also notice how much the percentage of unchallenged seats has gone up in just a few cycles Majorian posted:I didn't "put" anything in there; she's been very openly derisive of economic populism as a strategy for months: You put a split between urbanite and working class. That was not there in her tweet. It's also not in her Daily Show appearance (unless your definition of "working class" is her referenced "Pabst Blue Ribbon voter, the kind of Coors Lite-drinking voter." in which case I'm absolutely done being charitable). Where do you get the difference between "urbanite" (or "city-dwelling") and "working class" from her appearances? Because so far as I can tell, it's not there in the text of any of it. And for what it's worth, my "charitable reading" of her tweet is... reading her tweet? She believes that Dems are better suited by getting out the vote among their base than trying to convert Trump voters. Given the (justified) opposition to the old Schumer quote, I would think you'd be on board with that. Study after study, exit poll after exit poll, show that the economically disadvantaged broke for Clinton. PRRI (a single source, but not one I've seen contradicted) shows that selfreported economic insecurity in the white working class indicates a likelihood to vote for Hillary and the Dems, while cultural anxiety and white grievance indicate a likelihood to vote Trump. Another recent study suggests that grievance, rather than opposition to trade, was the best indicator and largest factor in Sanders->Trump voters. If you're galled by what you perceive as her opposition to economic populism, then don't describe it as "jettison the working class in favor of city-dwellers", which is both unsupported and questionable as all hell. shrike82 posted:Am I missing something about Joy Reid? I feel like this makes a good question for the thread though: In the absence of 2017 candidates with specific platforms to discuss, who is valid to discuss as representatives of ideologies within the Democratic Party?
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Sep 12, 2017 02:02
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its too bad the cold war/red scare stripped us of an entire generation of public intellectuals, imho
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Sep 12, 2017 02:04
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Calibanibal posted:its too bad the cold war/red scare stripped us of an entire generation of public intellectuals, imho They were boomers though so it's probably a good thing.
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Sep 12, 2017 02:06
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Calibanibal posted:its too bad the cold war/red scare stripped us of an entire generation of public intellectuals, imho For what it's worth, I agree with this. My perception is that a tremendous amount of work on race and gender was done during the cold war that had to avoid or skirt around explicitly including class analysis... and that those movements are still sorting out intersectionality while the individual elements are more mature and fully formed. Mustached Demon posted:They were boomers though so it's probably a good thing.
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Sep 12, 2017 02:12
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Paracaidas posted:You put a split between urbanite and working class. That was not there in her tweet. It's also not in her Daily Show appearance (unless your definition of "working class" is her referenced "Pabst Blue Ribbon voter, the kind of Coors Lite-drinking voter." in which case I'm absolutely done being charitable). What, exactly, do you think she meant by that? e: quote:She believes that Dems are better suited by getting out the vote among their base than trying to convert Trump voters. Given the (justified) opposition to the old Schumer quote, I would think you'd be on board with that. Study after study, exit poll after exit poll, show that the economically disadvantaged broke for Clinton. Out of those who voted, yes. But there's the problem: the working class, by and large, didn't turn out to vote in 2016. Voter disenfranchisement can only go so far in explaining that, too. Writing the rest off, as Reid does in the TDS interview, by saying, "Those [formerly Democratic] voters are Republican," and claiming, "They don't care about economics"? I'm sorry, but that's absurdly bad political commentary. Majorian fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Sep 12, 2017 |
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Sep 12, 2017 02:13
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Presto posted:If the Republicans had run their boring man last time they probably would have won. Instead they huddled together and chose a Christian fundamentalist shitsmear instead. I know! That's what's so crazy and fun about Virginia politics. Gotta pay attention, because there's always something insane around the corner.
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Sep 12, 2017 02:21
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Paracaidas posted:I feel like this makes a good question for the thread though: In the absence of 2017 candidates with specific platforms to discuss, who is valid to discuss as representatives of ideologies within the Democratic Party? rev william barber
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Sep 12, 2017 02:25
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shrike82 posted:Am I missing something about Joy Reid? https://twitter.com/thefarmerjones/status/907280626528776193 Or because she is a black woman. Go with what you want. You usually do you Trump voting piece of poo poo.
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Sep 12, 2017 02:25
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wait, who was it who said joy "soviet yugoslavia" reid was smart?
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Sep 12, 2017 02:27
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Or could it be that Joy Reid was an Abuelaist who was vocal about being anti-Sanders and people are using her as yet another prop to grind out the 2016 Primaries? Makes you think
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Sep 12, 2017 02:29
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The Muppets On PCP posted:wait, who was it who said joy "soviet yugoslavia" reid was smart? A lot of the idiot centrists in the Democratic party were touting her as smart and good. She and PSA are both good to watch if you want to see what the rotten core of the dems really want.
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Sep 12, 2017 02:29
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imagine listening to william loving kristol and nodding along
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Sep 12, 2017 02:34
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The Muppets On PCP posted:wait, who was it who said joy "soviet yugoslavia" reid was smart? She was smart at one time. She was even a big Bernie fan until 2015-ish, then suddenly did a weird 180 on him.
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Sep 12, 2017 02:35
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shrike82 posted:Or could it be that Joy Reid was an Abuelaist who was vocal about being anti-Sanders and people are using her as yet another prop to grind out the 2016 Primaries? or she's as mercenary as any other hack https://twitter.com/joyannreid/status/9794033857593345 Majorian posted:She was smart at one time. She was even a big Bernie fan until 2015-ish, then suddenly did a weird 180 on him. not so much weird as she was hired by msnbc when andy lack took over from phil griffin
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Sep 12, 2017 02:35
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The Muppets On PCP posted:or she's as mercenary as any other hack I don't know how could possibly say tha- https://twitter.com/JoyAnnReid/status/893861309401497600 The Muppets On PCP posted:not so much weird as she was hired by msnbc when andy lack took over from phil griffin You're right, should have said "jarring" instead.
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Sep 12, 2017 02:36
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stranger danger posted:imagine listening to william loving kristol and nodding along His podcast had me doing a nodding motion into a wall when I wasn't feeling like I had huffed a can of spray paint.
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Sep 12, 2017 02:39
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Majorian posted:You're right, should have said "jarring" instead. what's weird was their post-election corporate strategy was to double down on the centrist brainworms as opposed to hyping the populist left which their prime time lineup was perfectly suited for
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Sep 12, 2017 02:41
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The Muppets On PCP posted:rev william barber Majorian posted:What, exactly, do you think she meant by that? Do you understand why it's an issue that you, out of whole cloth, split "working class" from "city-dwellers"? Mr Hootington posted:A lot of the idiot centrists in the Democratic party were touting her as smart and good. She and PSA are both good to watch if you want to see what the rotten core of the dems really want. You seem lost, friend
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Sep 12, 2017 02:53
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Paracaidas posted:That a small portion of the working class-predominantly rural, white, and culturally conservative-votes for the GOP out of values that are incompatible with the Democratic Party rather than for economic reasons. Yet no one has suggested that the Democrats go after those voters, so your explanation is a total non-sequitur. What people are saying the Dems need to win back are those voters who went for Obama in '08 and '12, but flipped to Trump or stayed home in 2016. That is what Reid has been objecting to passionately for about ten months now. Her thesis during the TDS interview is this part: quote:Because democrats...they understand, that deep down, they're the party of black and brown people. Of gay people. Of marginalized people. Her strategy is, "Give up on the white working class, and on rural parts of the country, because they are all irretrievably Republicans now. Do not try to persuade anyone of your vision. Just rely on demographics." It is a very, very short-sighted strategy. quote:Do you understand why it's an issue that you, out of whole cloth, split "working class" from "city-dwellers"? Reid was the one who did that, not me, and yes, it was extremely problematic.
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Sep 12, 2017 03:24
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Since we are apparently doing the Democrats in this thread, here's some interesting quotes from Cory Booker on The Ezra Klein Show podcast.quote:The motto in my office is this: "In God we trust. But for everyone else, show me the data" quote:We need everyone in the healthcare system. Keeping illegal immigrants out of any new single-payer system is just politics. There is no reason to sort human beings into piles of those "deserving" healthcare and those that are "undeserving," except to play politics by preying on our basest instincts. There shouldn't be illegal immigrants. We need comprehensive immigration reform, but the "problem" of illegal immigrants' healthcare is an immigration problem and not a healthcare policy problem. quote:I know you agree with me on this, because I listen to your podcast [laughs], but it's like our criminal justice system. We've become this retribution culture. And... I worry about this because, I've been involved for three years now trying to reform the criminal justice system, and what we all talk about is "non-violent offenders, non-violent offenders, non-violent offenders..." But, we as a country need to come to grips with the fact that there are a lot of people who are in jail for far too long that are violent offenders as well. But for some reason, that is something that you are not allowed to have a conversation about. There is almost a... sickness in the way we are encouraged to think about these people and the casualness with which we accept violence against their person. We as a country are often too obsessed with violence and retribution. quote:Single-payer is the end of the road. The question is how we get there. I think that our political system and our employer-provided healthcare system will resist these changes, but they will come. The most likely outcome is probably going to be a "pincer maneuver" of Medicare or Medicaid; slowly decreasing the eligibility age down from 65 and up from children until we get everyone. That is probably the best way to do it. We will probably need to make sacrifices for the sake of political convenience or preserving the stability of people's plans to avoid spooking the general public. However, that doesn't mean that we accept half-measures on outcomes. quote:In education, many countries are "Out-Americaning" us here in America. The decline in quality outcomes from the United States education system tracks, it's almost shocking how close it tracks, to the decline of public investment in our universities and our youth. You can look at the massive economic benefits, the dollars and cents, that come from investing in universal pre-school and funding our public universities. Funding our public universities means funding our general and non-specific, maybe even non-commercial, research. It also means funding options to reduce the debt burden our students are graduating with. Again, look at the data, students in the US with large debt loads are driven to certain careers or they slowly dig themselves out of their debt burden overtime. That's money they aren't spending on homes, food, or other more useful sectors of the American economy. quote:I love Hillary Clinton and I think that a lot of the... can I just call it crap? I think so - that was said about her during the campaign was ridiculous. Before she even thought about politics, the first thing she did was get into law for poor children. The idea that she has always been on the lookout for only herself or her corporate donors denigrates the work she did for those kids. It also hurts because those organizations aren't acknowledged. quote:I've heard every politician I know, Republican and Democrat, talk about the middle class. But, even my good friend Elizabeth Warren, they don't really talk about the poor. When was the last time you heard a politician or a presidential speech that mentioned their new plan to help the poor? The people where I live, and I still live in the same house in Newark that I've been living in for 14 years, aren't kidding themselves about what class they belong to. And I... and I hear people say, "There aren't classes in America!" But tell that to people from Newark. Even their own schools were taken from them. I was the Mayor, the Mayor of a major US city, and I was elected with a - I'm gonna do Trump now - a huge percentage of the vote. But it was, mostly white, politicians in Trenton and Chris Christie who controlled their schools. They weren't kidding themselves. When they heard people talking about their new plans for students and the middle class, they knew that people weren't talking to them.
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Sep 12, 2017 03:36
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Since we are apparently doing the Democrats in this thread 'doing the democrats?' Not trying to be a smartass, what do you mean? Calibanibal posted:Thats a good point, wolf blitzer is alot more dangerous than joy reid. That depends on the weapons loadout.
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Sep 12, 2017 03:40
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This is quite a piece on the heroin epidemic. There's not a lot to discuss about it, but I think it's worth reading http://www.cincinnati.com/pages/interactives/seven-days-of-heroin-epidemic-cincinnati/
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Sep 12, 2017 03:56
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Since we are apparently doing the Democrats in this thread, here's some interesting quotes from Cory Booker on The Ezra Klein Show podcast. The Healthcare Quote strikes me as what the establishment wing will go with in 2020, incrementalism while keeping a push towards the end goal. The downside of that strategy is that the system will resist all of your changes as if you're doing Single Payer right now, while the more fervent advocates will see you as precompromising and selling out. On a different note-Equifax hack. Pretty recent. Impact unknown, cause mostly unknown. https://twitter.com/dnvolz/status/907340419238907905 Finance Committee is diving in. Serendipitously, Wyden has acquitted himself well on technical and infosec matters so this should be good. https://twitter.com/pwnallthethings/status/907426306886979584 Security Twitter is already suggesting that he's treating Equifax about like he does the IC, steering them down an unavoidable path towards embarrassment.
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Sep 12, 2017 04:02
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shrike82 posted:Am I missing something about Joy Reid? the chapo crowd is absolutely loving obsessed with her.
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Sep 12, 2017 04:02
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Since we are apparently doing the Democrats in this thread, here's some interesting quotes from Cory Booker on The Ezra Klein Show podcast. He's saying the right things. Mostly Paracaidas posted:The Healthcare Quote strikes me as what the establishment wing will go with in 2020, incrementalism while keeping a push towards the end goal. From what I understand they're going to fail all those questions really hard. RuanGacho fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Sep 12, 2017 |
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Sep 12, 2017 04:02
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The Muppets On PCP posted:"both sides! both sides!" i continue to insist as i slowly shrink and transform into an msnbc anchor Nah, I definitely support socialists... but I also support the idea of getting poo poo done. Bernie isn't getting anything done and being tied to individuals instead of ideas and ideals is likely to get people stuck on this stupid highschool drama. Seriously, all politicians are going to be tainted or damaged goods by the very nature of being politicians. It's our job to hold them to a higher standard, squeeze as much as we can from them and throw them out when they stop supporting our ideals. Politicians are tools of the people, not the other way around, and should be treated in an equally disposable fashion. If Kamala Harris or whoever the next Dem centrist is can move the needle further to the left, that's all I care about. If and when she can't, she needs to be thrown out on her rear end. Even the best pols are rarely loyal to their constituents, so we should hold no intrinsic loyalty to them.
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Sep 12, 2017 04:12
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Paracaidas posted:https://twitter.com/pwnallthethings/status/907426306886979584  That is a brutal set of questions. He is asking them to provide the rope that the civil courts will use to hang them.
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Sep 12, 2017 04:23
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This seems meaningful https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/907437397822119940 (it's a pretty good thread in general if you're not averse to reading tweetstorms)
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Sep 12, 2017 04:44
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I think "go after white working class!" vs "ignore the white working class, go totally urban!" is a ridiculous false dichotomy. There's no reason the Democratic Party can't BOTH embrace economic populism while also working explicitly on some racial issues. There is a set of white folks who would be in favor of economic reforms but will vote R because the Ds are "for the blacks" or whatever. gently caress those guys specifically, but still totally try to get every other white working class voter.
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Sep 12, 2017 04:45
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Hellblazer187 posted:I think "go after white working class!" vs "ignore the white working class, go totally urban!" is a ridiculous false dichotomy. There's no reason the Democratic Party can't BOTH embrace economic populism while also working explicitly on some racial issues. There is a set of white folks who would be in favor of economic reforms but will vote R because the Ds are "for the blacks" or whatever. gently caress those guys specifically, but still totally try to get every other white working class voter.  , and one would think that every Dem could agree with that. But watch the Daily Show interview; Trevor Noah flat-out asks Reid why they can't do both. Her answer? "They're Republicans!" (except they're not)
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Sep 12, 2017 04:49
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Majorian posted:
Seconded. They're not inherent Republicans. Many were unionists when they still had manufacturing jobs.
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Sep 12, 2017 04:53
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Xae posted:
highme posted:This seems meaningful She's not Mensch/Garland, but I'd prefer a better source generally. Last I recall reading her was a theory that Macron honeypotted the Russians with false info for their preelection leak.
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Sep 12, 2017 04:53
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The quote was from this article --> https://www.yahoo.com/news/russian-news-agency-pushed-dnc-142929051.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=tw And yeah, I'm very happy with the Oregon senate delegation.
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Sep 12, 2017 05:12
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