Magic: the Gathering: Faithless Posting

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Tin Tim: Jun 4, 2012; Live by the pun - Die by the pun

Eela6 posted:

Short answer: you can't double dip if they're both costs.

Longer answer: For both of those cards, sacrificing is a cost, not a trigger. You choose to pay the cost for one of the abilities, then the ability goes on the stack. By the time you get priorirty again and could choose to activate the other ability, the creature is already sacrificed, so there's no point in the game where you could do both.

If, however, you have a card that says when you sacrifice a creature, gain 2 life , that's a triggered ability , and it will go on the stack when you sacrifice a creature, no matter how.

I feel such a case is one of the more nebulous aspects of the game for people that haven't been playing for years. Like at first glance I'd think that both things would happen since in the case of the scion it says that it does something when it gets sacrificed. And since I'm sacrificing it in the process of doing something else it still gets sacrificed you know? But thanks for clearing that up for me. I just didn't know that it worked with a distinction between cost and trigger

E: I guess for my initial thought to work the scion would need "whenever this gets sacrificed do thing" on its text?

Tin Tim fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Sep 12, 2017

# ? Sep 12, 2017 15:47

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 16:37

evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

Devor posted:

Gatherer anticipated your question:

From Hypersonic Dragon:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253655

10/1/2012 The last ability has no effect on abilities that you can activate �any time you could cast a sorcery.�

Ahh neat, thanks. They should be more precise in their wording to avoid letting lawyers getting excited over loopholes :mad:

# ? Sep 12, 2017 15:51

TheKingofSprings: Oct 9, 2012

That repeatable threaten with the uncommon sacrifice enchantment seems unbeatable in limited and sealed

# ? Sep 12, 2017 15:55

Tainen: Jan 23, 2004

evilweasel posted:

Ahh neat, thanks. They should be more precise in their wording to avoid letting lawyers getting excited over loopholes

If you are confused try to take the text on the card as literally as possible. The dragon says "you may cast sorcery spells..." are you casting a sorcery spell or are you using an activated ability?

# ? Sep 12, 2017 15:55

Count Bleck: Apr 5, 2010; DISPEL MAGIC!

Spiderdrake posted:

Don't forget complain about red and have problems with shipping!! A true redaissance man

I can't do that first bit anymore now that Red is good.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 15:59

evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

Tainen posted:

If you are confused try to take the text on the card as literally as possible. The dragon says "you may cast sorcery spells..." are you casting a sorcery spell or are you using an activated ability?

i'm using an activated ability that is gated by my ability to cast sorcery spells. activated abilities, by default, can be activated as instants, but this has a special restriction that imports timing restrictions, but those timing restrictions can be modified by other cards, and you see where i'm going here.

but yeah, it seems to have a clear ruling, don't mind me, i've spent too many years litigating new york contracts where the rule is "it means what it says, no matter how obvious it is that's not what was meant" :v:

# ? Sep 12, 2017 16:01

Meatbag Esq.: May 3, 2006; Hmm which internet meme should go here again?

The invocation equivalent for this set should be black and white outline versions of all of the dinosaur cards.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 16:09

BizarroAzrael: Apr 6, 2006; "That must weigh heavily on your soul. Let me purge it for you."

Tainen posted:

Monstrosaur seems incredibly good for an uncommon, I think it could be format-defining in limited. Vanguard seems neat but no idea if it's good.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 16:09

sit on my Facebook: Jun 20, 2007; ASS GAS OR GRASS
No One Rides for FREE
In the Trumplord Holy Land

evilweasel posted:

i'm using an activated ability that is gated by my ability to cast sorcery spells. activated abilities, by default, can be activated as instants, but this has a special restriction that imports timing restrictions, but those timing restrictions can be modified by other cards, and you see where i'm going here.

but yeah, it seems to have a clear ruling, don't mind me, i've spent too many years litigating new york contracts where the rule is "it means what it says, no matter how obvious it is that's not what was meant"

Well and in fairness that's typically how magic rulings work also, it just so happens this one corner case makes use of a not-totally-accurate shorthand

Edit;

Tainen posted:

Oh hey look, my Dowsing Dagger holder

sit on my Facebook fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Sep 12, 2017

# ? Sep 12, 2017 16:09

mcmagic: Jul 1, 2004; If you see this avatar while scrolling the succ zone, you have been visited by the mcmagic of shitty lib takes! Good luck and prosperity will come to you, but only if you reply "shut the fuck up mcmagic" to this post!

BizarroAzrael posted:

Monstrosaur seems incredibly good for an uncommon, I think it could be format-defining in limited. Vanguard seems neat but no idea if it's good.

Yeah it's pretty much Reality Smasher.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 16:15

Tainen: Jan 23, 2004

While we are taking about the wording on cards has anyone been able to successfully play a Decimator Beetle without having to call a judge to explain to your opponent how it works? I swear that every time I drafted it my opponent didn't believe me when I explained how it worked.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 16:16

sit on my Facebook: Jun 20, 2007; ASS GAS OR GRASS
No One Rides for FREE
In the Trumplord Holy Land

Tainen posted:

While we are taking about the wording on cards has anyone been able to successfully play a Decimator Beetle without having to call a judge to explain to your opponent how it works? I swear that every time I drafted it my opponent didn't believe me when I explained how it worked.

I have found it to be shocking how frequently even good, experienced players misinterpret that card for sure

I almost feel like it should have had two separate clauses for the removing of a counter and placing of a counter instead of tying them together with "and"

# ? Sep 12, 2017 16:18

Sickening: Jul 16, 2007; Black summer was the best summer.

Anyone else noticing Saffron Olive flailing at the notion of MTGO going away? Does he have a bigger stake in the mtgo singles market than I realized?

# ? Sep 12, 2017 16:26

Dr. Stab: Sep 12, 2010; 👨🏻‍⚕️🩺🔪🙀😱🙀

evilweasel posted:

Ahh neat, thanks. They should be more precise in their wording to avoid letting lawyers getting excited over loopholes

Actually, you can only activate the ability when you have a sorcery in your hand and the mana to cast it.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 16:27

Errant Gin Monks: Oct 2, 2009; "Yeah..."
- Marshawn Lynch

sit on my Facebook posted:

I have found it to be shocking how frequently even good, experienced players misinterpret that card for sure

I almost feel like it should have had two separate clauses for the removing of a counter and placing of a counter instead of tying them together with "and"

It's because it looks like a cost instead of doing two things at once. Wording would have been easier if it was "when beetle attacks put a -1\-1 Counter on up to one target creature opponent controls; you may remove a -1\-1 counter from target creature you control."

# ? Sep 12, 2017 16:29

AnEdgelord: Dec 12, 2016

Sickening posted:

Anyone else noticing Saffron Olive flailing at the notion of MTGO going away? Does he have a bigger stake in the mtgo singles market than I realized?

I mean, making weird brews to show that certain cards are playable is a pretty good way of advertising singles you don't normally sell.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 16:30

Tainen: Jan 23, 2004

Sickening posted:

Anyone else noticing Saffron Olive flailing at the notion of MTGO going away? Does he have a bigger stake in the mtgo singles market than I realized?

He is 100% shook. Listen to the MTGGoldfish podcast posted yesterday for some laughs at how his cohosts are excitedly cheering the potential death of MTGO while Seth is freaking out.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 16:30

Count Bleck: Apr 5, 2010; DISPEL MAGIC!

sit on my Facebook posted:

Well and in fairness that's typically how magic rulings work also, it just so happens this one corner case makes use of a not-totally-accurate shorthand

Edit;

Oh hey look, my Dowsing Dagger holder

Another potential creature for Merfolk.

Maybe.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 16:31

Yuzenn: Mar 31, 2011; Be weary when you see oppression disguised as progression

The Spirit told me to use discernment and a Smith n Wesson at my discretion

Practice heavy self reflection, avoid self deception
If you lost, get re-direction

Sickening posted:

Anyone else noticing Saffron Olive flailing at the notion of MTGO going away? Does he have a bigger stake in the mtgo singles market than I realized?

Dude's not gonna make any money without making jank brews and streaming them on MTGO. He certainly won't do limited so Arena is out for him.

MTGO's death is gonna make a lot of people flail, especially with how expensive the eternal formats are. If people can't recoup their hundreds if not thousands of dollars people will be pisssssssed

# ? Sep 12, 2017 16:36

Count Bleck: Apr 5, 2010; DISPEL MAGIC!

Yuzenn posted:

Dude's not gonna make any money without making jank brews and streaming them on MTGO. He certainly won't do limited so Arena is out for him.

MTGO's death is gonna make a lot of people flail, especially with how expensive the eternal formats are. If people can't recoup their hundreds if not thousands of dollars people will be pisssssssed

I mean, to be fair.

This was bound to happen eventually.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 16:37

Chill la Chill: Jul 2, 2007; Don't lose your gay

Is the new app (it'll be in app form, this is 2017 right?) going to have the f2p, no trading model? I hope so because WOTC wins out; everyone's a whale in magic.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 16:41

mcmagic: Jul 1, 2004; If you see this avatar while scrolling the succ zone, you have been visited by the mcmagic of shitty lib takes! Good luck and prosperity will come to you, but only if you reply "shut the fuck up mcmagic" to this post!

Chill la Chill posted:

Is the new app (it'll be in app form, this is 2017 right?) going to have the f2p, no trading model? I hope so because WOTC wins out; everyone's a whale in magic.

It's starting as PC only and it won't be 2017.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 16:42

Sarmhan: Nov 1, 2011

mcmagic posted:

It's starting as PC only and it won't be 2017.

Yea. It's in unity though, so porting shouldn't be much of a challenge.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 16:47

Lottery of Babylon: Apr 25, 2012; STRAIGHT TROPIN'

Why did they unkeyword Unblockable? It's not like that keyword's existence made the game harder to learn, it's the only keyword in the game that is 100% self-explanatory.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 16:55

Fuzzy Mammal: Aug 15, 2001; Lipstick Apathy

evilweasel posted:

Ahh neat, thanks. They should be more precise in their wording to avoid letting lawyers getting excited over loopholes

There are of course exceptions that prove every rule, like suspend. Unlike this enchantment suspend says, "If you could play this...", so Quicken allows you to suspend any number of sorceries at say opponent eot as long as you have the mana for it.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 17:00

En Fuego: Oct 8, 2004; The Reverend

Lottery of Babylon posted:

Why did they unkeyword Unblockable? It's not like that keyword's existence made the game harder to learn, it's the only keyword in the game that is 100% self-explanatory.

They've moved away from Unblockable to smaller things, like Can't Be Blocked By Your Mother ... The "Can't Be Blocked...' is the thing since Magic2014

# ? Sep 12, 2017 17:01

Sit on my Jace: Sep 9, 2016

evilweasel posted:

Ahh neat, thanks. They should be more precise in their wording to avoid letting lawyers getting excited over loopholes

That's why you have to read the rulings (case law) and comp rules (statutes), so you don't get a nasty surprise from a judge (a judge).

# ? Sep 12, 2017 17:04

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

Lottery of Babylon posted:

Why did they unkeyword Unblockable? It's not like that keyword's existence made the game harder to learn, it's the only keyword in the game that is 100% self-explanatory.

Because there are a lot of conditional unblockable things, and "X can't be blocked by Y" reads better than "X is unblockable by Y"

# ? Sep 12, 2017 17:06

Sickening: Jul 16, 2007; Black summer was the best summer.

Tainen posted:

He is 100% shook. Listen to the MTGGoldfish podcast posted yesterday for some laughs at how his cohosts are excitedly cheering the potential death of MTGO while Seth is freaking out.

I am getting the sense of that. I assumed he would be one of the first people all over how great arena is for online play yet most of everything he said is negative in his light way of being negative.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 17:07

Yuzenn: Mar 31, 2011; Be weary when you see oppression disguised as progression

The Spirit told me to use discernment and a Smith n Wesson at my discretion

Practice heavy self reflection, avoid self deception
If you lost, get re-direction

Count Bleck posted:

I mean, to be fair.

This was bound to happen eventually.

Yeah I know, it's fine and as long as there is a way for people to liquidate their collections arena is probably just fine as a platform going forward. Magic does survive very heavily on having a secondary market, cause who doesn't like their cardboard/online collection having some value?

(I'm basically liquidating outside of my one commander deck and my one modern deck unless something else happens to make me confident in keeping my collection, and I have enough play points to last me through the year of limited drafts)

# ? Sep 12, 2017 17:10

mossyfisk: Nov 8, 2010; FF0000

Yuzenn posted:

Yeah I know, it's fine and as long as there is a way for people to liquidate their collections arena is probably just fine as a platform going forward. Magic does survive very heavily on having a secondary market, cause who doesn't like their cardboard/online collection having some value?

Arena doesn't have trading, so you won't be able to liquidate and there will be no secondary market.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 17:14

Chill la Chill: Jul 2, 2007; Don't lose your gay

Yuzenn posted:

Yeah I know, it's fine and as long as there is a way for people to liquidate their collections arena is probably just fine as a platform going forward. Magic does survive very heavily on having a secondary market, cause who doesn't like their cardboard/online collection having some value?

They do have value to their owners. How else would whaling in F2P anime idol rhythm games work? Though I suppose that's a bit different. There's a show and stuffed animals to go with it.

On a related note: WOTC make magical giant stuffed nesoberis and body pillows of jace please, tia

# ? Sep 12, 2017 17:16

AnEdgelord: Dec 12, 2016

mossyfisk posted:

Arena doesn't have trading, so you won't be able to liquidate and there will be no secondary market.

if mtgo is kill and wizards moves the eternal formats over they could theoretically allow a one time transfer of peoples collections

# ? Sep 12, 2017 17:19

evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

mossyfisk posted:

Arena doesn't have trading, so you won't be able to liquidate and there will be no secondary market.

you may be able to liquidate by selling your account intact

# ? Sep 12, 2017 17:23

Count Bleck: Apr 5, 2010; DISPEL MAGIC!

LordAbaddon posted:

if mtgo is kill and wizards moves the eternal formats over they could theoretically allow a one time transfer of peoples collections

This would be hilarious if all the people who went hard into MTGO and got out too late learned this after selling off their Goyfs for 3 bucks.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 17:23

Rinkles: Oct 24, 2010; What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?

When's the panic crash coming?

# ? Sep 12, 2017 17:25

disaster pastor: May 1, 2007

LordAbaddon posted:

if mtgo is kill and wizards moves the eternal formats over they could theoretically allow a one time transfer of peoples collections

Yeah, I'm anticipating the progression to be "Standard and draft only" to "hey, we added Cube" to "hey, we've had enough Cubes that most of the cards are all programmed anyway, so we're starting other Constructed formats" to "everything is programmed, you can move your collection now or never" to "we're shooting MTGO in the head and dumping the body in the bay."

# ? Sep 12, 2017 17:27

sit on my Facebook: Jun 20, 2007; ASS GAS OR GRASS
No One Rides for FREE
In the Trumplord Holy Land

Rinkles posted:

When's the panic crash coming?

I'm baffled it hasn't already. People are deluding themselves if they think this isn't the death knell for mtgo

# ? Sep 12, 2017 17:31

Sickening: Jul 16, 2007; Black summer was the best summer.

Anybody taking the information about this not being an mtgo replacement as anything but "please keep spending money on mtgo until this is out" is an idiot.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 17:38

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 16:37

Marketing New Brain: Apr 26, 2008

Rinkles posted:

When's the panic crash coming?

It's too soon, once people draft on it and see what the experience is like, if it can replace mtgo I think you'll start to see an exodus.

# ? Sep 12, 2017 17:39

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