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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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77 | 25.50% |
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160 | 52.98% |
| M |
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65 | 21.52% |
| Total: | 229 votes | ||
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VitalSigns posted:Amusing aside: if you are correct (and you may be) that the committee is just an excuse for Democrats to dishonestly kill UHC at the behest of the donors, then you're conceding that the thread title is correct, the Democrats are a waste and cannot be worked with in good faith, but must face constant threats to their jobs in order to coerce them to actually govern on behalf of the people or better yet primaried and replaced as soon as possible with good faith actors from the progressive wing of the party. LOL, beatifully done.
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Sep 12, 2017 07:17
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Condiv posted:they do apparently pollute less per capita than capitalists though What are you talking about, the Eastern Bloc was drowning in pollution before the transition.
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Sep 12, 2017 07:43
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steinrokkan posted:What are you talking about, the Eastern Bloc was drowning in pollution before the transition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita In terms of CO2 at least it was actually more of a mixed bag. The big issue I think was more localized air pollution in the Eastern bloc.
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Sep 12, 2017 08:28
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steinrokkan posted:What are you talking about, the Eastern Bloc was drowning in pollution before the transition. This is unfortunately true. As bad a polluter as the U.S. is, we don't have anything quite as dramatically awful as this.
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Sep 12, 2017 08:35
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I dunno, you did have a couple of rivers that used to catch fire at regular intervals.
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Sep 12, 2017 08:43
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Majorian posted:This is unfortunately true. As bad a polluter as the U.S. is, we don't have anything quite as dramatically awful as this. Uhhh.... we pulled some crazy non-sense as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downwinders Both sides really didn't give a poo poo until they were forced to. Granted, I do think climate change at its heart is rooted in industrialization, and the need to move up the ladder of industrialization for any type of lasting improvement to society. That said, it was ultimately the US which has the power and wealth to push to something about it (especially after 1991) and largely did nothing. I don't know if the Soviets would have done better, but it clear in the end the US is the one that had the opportunity and blew it. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 09:16 on Sep 12, 2017 |
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Sep 12, 2017 08:55
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Ardennes posted:The big issue I think was more localized air pollution in the Eastern bloc. I recall reading something about Russia/Europe in general wanting to count the soviet economic collapse as "their contribution to reaching Kyoto Protocol reduction targets", and is why Dubya didn't even attend the climate conferences during his terms. Confirm/deny?
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Sep 12, 2017 09:52
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making GBS threads up the environment is something no extant or historical human society has avoided. Kinda pointless to argue whether communists or capitalists were better or worse at it.
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Sep 12, 2017 10:02
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Ardennes posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita CO2 is one thing, but it is not immediately toxic, let's look at toxic pollutants. For example the current 99th percentile for worst observed pollution by SO2 the US is 200 micrograms per m3. In 1980s in Czechoslovakia it sometimes reached 1500 micrograms - at which point it could commonly cause chronic bleeding from mucous membranes among other symptoms. Or polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. In 1990 the mean measured pollution in the EU for the common indicator particles was below 1ng/m3. In industrial areas of the Eastern Bloc it would frequently measure above 500 ng/m3. And I could continue with stuff like acid rain severity, nitrogen compounds etc, etc. Again, CO2 really wasn't the main issue that troubled people.
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Sep 12, 2017 10:12
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shrike82 posted:making GBS threads up the environment is something no extant or historical human society has avoided. It's not because a non-zero amount of people idolizes state capitalism and thinks giving the state ownership over the economy will make it behave responsibly. And saying that the difference in pollution was due to different manufacturing scale is a lie, since the output of goods and pollutants was absolutely disproportionate. Anyway, the point is that western countries eventually started to fight environmental damage, while the Eastern economies continued doing worse and worse each year until the 90s. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 10:19 on Sep 12, 2017 |
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Sep 12, 2017 10:15
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I don’t know what state capitalism is but ok Stats about domestic pollution are meaningless because a lot of developed countries essentially outsource their pollution to places like China or India
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Sep 12, 2017 10:18
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You are fundamentally saying that pollution is a fixed function of the volume of manufacturing, and that there is nothing a government can do about reducing its pollutant footprint. I. e. things that are objectively wrong. In reality statistics are only meaningless for people who don't bother to look into them in greater detail. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 10:23 on Sep 12, 2017 |
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Sep 12, 2017 10:21
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No, I’m arguing that pollution stats about market economies are meaningless because they can outsource pollution to the third world When you buy an iPhone, does the environmental footprint of that count towards US stats or Chinese stats?
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Sep 12, 2017 10:24
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shrike82 posted:No, I’m arguing that pollution stats about market economies are meaningless because they can outsource pollution to the third world Ireland, since that's where Apple's tax havens are.
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Sep 12, 2017 10:31
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steinrokkan posted:What are you talking about, the Eastern Bloc was drowning in pollution before the transition. are you doing a fair one on one comparison here? you've been comparing the pollution of the US as a whole to a portion of the USSR wrt toxic pollution, there's a town in my state that had to be abandoned because of how terribly polluted it ended up.
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Sep 12, 2017 10:36
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Waste is a waste.
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Sep 12, 2017 10:47
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Peachfart posted:I would love a single payer bill. I also know that you love to put words in my mouth. I do get a laugh that you think I am affluent and happy with the status quo, simply because I questioned what the left had accomplished and don't think this committee will do anything. When you shill so hard for complacency and the status quo that when leftist activism gets the party leadership to respond, you accidentally loop around to arguing that the political process is a con, democracy is a sham, and the parties are so rotted through with corruption that the Democratic establishment will lie and cheat to dishonestly kill progressive legislation that has massive public support if it inconveniences a donor, no one in the party leadership today can be trusted and the only way forward is political revolution. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Sep 12, 2017 |
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Sep 12, 2017 11:35
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VitalSigns posted:When you shill so hard for complacency and that status quo that when leftist activism gets the party leadership to respond, you accidentally loop around to arguing that the political process is a con, democracy is a sham, and the parties are so rotted through with corruption that the Democratic establishment will lie and cheat to dishonestly kill progressive legislation that has massive public support if it inconveniences a donor, no one in the party leadership today can be trusted and the only way forward is political revolution. The democrats are a waste. e: Seriously though, this bill not being worked on and then having the party go "well hey it's lovely and incomplete can't do anything about that" reminds me a lot of the Republican Strategy for Things. "Government is bad. So let's make it suck and prove it's bad so I can get what I wanted to begin with", etc. Marxalot fucked around with this message at 12:24 on Sep 12, 2017 |
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Sep 12, 2017 12:21
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Democratic uselessness is a little different than Republicans. Republicans run on the idea that all government sucks (ignore that we are the government  ). Democrats use the excuse that everything has to be done incredibly slowly, so slowly you may not even ever notice a difference. Expecting anything to get better quickly is childish and not serious. It's how they support the status quo while pretending they don't. This sort of super slow movement logic doesn't really apply to everything though so you can sort out pretty quickly what they actually support and what they don't.
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Sep 12, 2017 12:57
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The 538 podcast is especially bad this week but I don't know where to post about it.
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Sep 12, 2017 12:58
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The Kingfish posted:The 538 podcast is especially bad this week but I don't know where to post about it. Lol why would you subject yourself to that podcast?
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Sep 12, 2017 13:20
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Jizz Festival posted:Lol why would you subject yourself to that podcast? Is this a podcast for people with an excel fetish? Nate Silver's FiveThirtyEight uses statistical analysis — hard numbers — to tell compelling stories about elections, politics, sports,
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Sep 12, 2017 14:40
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I think most everything on FiveThirtyEight is for people who don't actually understand politics but are super invested in believing that they do.
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Sep 12, 2017 14:44
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Cerebral Bore posted:I think most everything on FiveThirtyEight is for people who don't actually understand politics but are super invested in believing that they do. Its normally the primo podcast for people who want voyeuristic political analysis from "rational," disinterested elites. This week it was just another bad podcast about how Hillary Clinton has a RIGHT to be heard.
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Sep 12, 2017 14:52
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I enjoy listening to different flavors of bad liberal opinions.
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Sep 12, 2017 14:57
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Dems bad, so what
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Sep 12, 2017 14:59
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The Kingfish posted:I enjoy listening to different flavors of bad liberal opinions. Are you a bad enough dude to listen to Hillary's 16hr epic titled "It's Bernie's fault"?
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Sep 12, 2017 15:00
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The Kingfish posted:The 538 podcast is especially bad this week but I don't know where to post about it. Yeah, I listened to it too and it's real bad.
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Sep 12, 2017 15:12
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She's hilariously defensive on the Pod Save America podcast too.
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Sep 12, 2017 15:38
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If I was Hillary Clinton I would take all my money and just vamoose to a tropical paradise, live off my wealth in my twilight years, and hang out with all the rich people I considers my peers. I wouldn't even need to be with Bill anymore if I didn't feel like it since who gives a poo poo about optics when you just bug out. It sounds a lot more fun than wasting time with this stupid tour.
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Sep 12, 2017 15:41
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white sauce posted:Dems bad, so what Dems bad, peeps dead.
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Sep 12, 2017 15:47
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https://twitter.com/ericawerner/status/907616199453954048
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Sep 12, 2017 16:01
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Radish posted:If I was Hillary Clinton I would take all my money and just vamoose to a tropical paradise, live off my wealth in my twilight years, and hang out with all the rich people I considers my peers. I wouldn't even need to be with Bill anymore if I didn't feel like it since who gives a poo poo about optics when you just bug out. It sounds a lot more fun than wasting time with this stupid tour. The only thing she knows how to do well is to make money off her fame, can we really blame her for wanting to make a few extra million off her loss to a fascist pig?
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Sep 12, 2017 16:04
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lmao at thinking Pelosi's on your side. If she lived in like Oklahoma she'd be a blood-red Republican and she'd not change a single thing.
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Sep 12, 2017 16:36
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steinrokkan posted:You are fundamentally saying that pollution is a fixed function of the volume of manufacturing, and that there is nothing a government can do about reducing its pollutant footprint. I. e. things that are objectively wrong. You are wasting your time. Condiv is a completely insane tankie. People in gulags deserved to be there, the Soviet Union didn't pollute and everything the United States does is bad. You can't argue with someone like that because their worldview is so fundamentally warped.
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Sep 12, 2017 16:38
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John Henry Miller posted:You are wasting your time. Condiv is a completely insane tankie. People in gulags deserved to be there, the Soviet Union didn't pollute and everything the United States does is bad. I don't know if many of those in gulags deserved it. But you certainly could use a mandatory vacation to one.
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Sep 12, 2017 16:42
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"Support our President and legally elected government" = "deserves to be imprisoned" according to liberals. The violence of the USSR wasn't some aberration. Violence and oppression are an essential part of leftwing thought. Coercion is the only way it works.
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Sep 12, 2017 16:53
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You say this like it's a bad thing.
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Sep 12, 2017 16:54
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John Henry Miller posted:"Support our President and legally elected government" = "deserves to be imprisoned" according to liberals. Lol you think we're liberals. So naive. Also if coercion makes you a non liberal that is a good thing.
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Sep 12, 2017 16:58
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John Henry Miller posted:"Support our President and legally elected government" = "deserves to be imprisoned" according to liberals. That coercion is insanely good. Handwringing about coercion is just one sign among many that you're the real liberal itt.
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Sep 12, 2017 17:01
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