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botany posted:i've also never seen a novel point in this eternal debate. people are posting the same old things at each other, loudly, without changing anybody's mind. it's not so much that we can't handle criticism of HRC, it's more that these discussions are tiresome as poo poo and don't lead anywhere, ever. it's not an eternal debate if you let the debate actually happen naturally. primary chat isn't a huge part of the dems thread, entirely because most everyone has said their piece on it another way to avoid primary chat is to not bring it up. like axeil blasting in here praising hillary slagging bernie while people were discussing healthcare edit: dog tax 
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Sep 13, 2017 19:43
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botany posted:i've also never seen a novel point in this eternal debate. people are posting the same old things at each other, loudly, without changing anybody's mind. it's not so much that we can't handle criticism of HRC, it's more that these discussions are tiresome as poo poo and don't lead anywhere, ever.
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Sep 13, 2017 19:44
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lol, it doesn't matter if he is found to be a serial killer at some point in the future; it's not why he was fired in 2017.
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Sep 13, 2017 19:46
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BardoTheConsumer posted:I don't blame hillary for losing. I honestly don't. A black man became president, yet somehow the deck was stacked against Hilldawg She lost Michigan lol
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Sep 13, 2017 19:46
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:I don't see what those two things have to do with each other? Seems like Hillary is at least twice removed from this thread, the Current US Politics thread. Whereas discussing what one of the parties, the Democrats, is doing in our two-party system currently is extremely relevant.
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Sep 13, 2017 19:47
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Ohthehugemanatee posted:Internet leftism is so loving embarrassing. "Well you made a complex point but I can't help but notice that if I deliberately misconstrue a single line you've committed racism in the fourth degree..." Sorry for caring about racism, I guess.
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Sep 13, 2017 19:47
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botany posted:i've also never seen a novel point in this eternal debate. people are posting the same old things at each other, loudly, without changing anybody's mind. it's not so much that we can't handle criticism of HRC, it's more that these discussions are tiresome as poo poo and don't lead anywhere, ever. I empathize with the sentiment here, but I must persist that this is an important discussion to have despite the intransigence that is frequently displayed. If we refuse to critically examine Hillary and her campaign (for any reason) then we are collectively dooming ourselves to repeat the past mistakes. I've experienced this particular social situation before and believe that eventually (after much wailing and gnashing of teeth) something productive will come out of this discussion. Also although I've never posted in the "Democrats are a waste" thread I'm not familiar with anyone who is making the specific points about Hillary that I am: ie that she was a skilled/credentialed administrator but not an actual leader. I haven't really seen anyone criticize her failure to present a vision of the future that the American people could/wanted to embrace, nor am I familiar with critiques that center on how her lack of willingness to accept accountability for what occurred on her watch demonstrates that she had a fundamental character flaw that made her unfit for the role of POTUS. POTUS serves as the figurative and literal leader of the American people. An uncharismatic administrator (no matter how qualified) was always going to be at a massive disadvantage. Hillary refused to even countenance this possibility, let alone take actions to address the issue.
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Sep 13, 2017 19:47
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Raskolnikov38 posted:then why run on anything if the possibility of failure is so terrifying You don't have to guarantee success. But running on specific promise without any clear path to delivery is how you end up with poo poo shows like the Obamacare repeal. What's the point of winning 2018 and 2020 on Medicare for all and then spending four years arguing about how exactly you remake a sixth of the economy? If Obama walked into Congress in 2009 and said "hey I campaigned on eliminating underwriting, let's make it happen", he never would've passed the ACA.
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Sep 13, 2017 19:48
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boner confessor posted:leftists robotically repeating dogma which has failed to have any real world impact, you say  Condiv posted:it's not an eternal debate if you let the debate actually happen naturally. primary chat isn't a huge part of the dems thread, entirely because most everyone has said their piece on it of course it is. once the first group have tired themselves out it's only a matter of time before somebody wanders into the thread, drops a line about clinton and like the world's most annoying energizer bunnies you all go again. there's a really good reason primary chat is against the rules, and i'm sincerely hoping we keep it that way.
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Sep 13, 2017 19:48
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That would be an interesting point PJ if it were actually a discussion and not the same 5 points being regurgitated by the same posters who each think they're dunking on each other.
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Sep 13, 2017 19:50
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BetterToRuleInHell posted:A black man became president, yet somehow the deck was stacked against Hilldawg For some reason I can't help but feel that there was better support for any Dem candidate in 2008 than in 2016. Maybe involving some person named Katrina?
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Sep 13, 2017 19:51
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Taerkar posted:For some reason I can't help but feel that there was better support for any Dem candidate in 2008 than in 2016. Maybe involving some person named Katrina? Running Barrack Obama and running Hillary Clinton isn't the same thing.
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Sep 13, 2017 19:54
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botany posted:of course it is. once the first group have tired themselves out it's only a matter of time before somebody wanders into the thread, drops a line about clinton and like the world's most annoying energizer bunnies you all go again. there's a really good reason primary chat is against the rules, and i'm sincerely hoping we keep it that way. i'm guessing you don't actually read the thread
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Sep 13, 2017 19:58
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gently caress you all here too.
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Sep 13, 2017 19:58
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I get the reason why Bernie outlaws private insurance his plan, but man is that an awfully difficult thing to ask Democratic politicians to embrace, since that carries risk of enormous backlash from the public. Personally I think studies have shown that if you make the government plan generous enough, and allow employers to buy into it, almost all will go with the government option anyway, thus making private insurance all but obsolete. I think that's a more politically viable approach then running on a plan that essentially tells people they can't keep their plan anymore, even if the government option is better.
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Sep 13, 2017 19:58
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Taerkar posted:For some reason I can't help but feel that there was better support for any Dem candidate in 2008 than in 2016. Maybe involving some person named Katrina? But now if you ask 30% of republicans they'll tell you Obama was golfin during Katrina.
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Sep 13, 2017 19:59
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https://twitter.com/vaughnastudillo/status/908029721098674176 e: Suspect reportedly in custody. treasured8elief fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Sep 13, 2017 |
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Sep 13, 2017 20:00
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Mustached Demon posted:gently caress you all here too. At least offer to take me to dinner or a movie first.
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Sep 13, 2017 20:02
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Prester Jane posted:If Hillary actually was a real leader (and not a puffed up administrator) that book would be a list of where she went wrong and how she thinks future Democrats can avoid her mistakes. Instead it is an ode to why she thinks she deserved to win and why she would have been the bestest administrator ever. It doesn't even matter whether that is how she privately felt about the matter or not, a leader would have written a book that they thought could help improve the party, nto a book that kvetches ab out how unfair everything was and how her failure to lead is a result of the incompetence/malfeasance of outside actors. Have you read the book? I ask because I listened to Monday's episode of Pod Save America like 30 minutes ago and they had a journalist on who read the book and said basically that it is what you said it should be and not what you said it is. Specifically, the journalist said that Hillary thoroughly takes ownership of the election result as being her fault to a large degree in the book. I haven't read it so it could be either as far as I know personally, but the incongruity is striking. Eletriarnation fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Sep 13, 2017 |
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Sep 13, 2017 20:02
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tentative8e8op posted:https://twitter.com/vaughnastudillo/status/908029721098674176 that's terrible, hope they pull through
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Sep 13, 2017 20:04
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Condiv posted:i'm guessing you don't actually read the thread the dems thread? god no. every now and then i drop in and decide it's bad for my bloodpressure. but i read this one and the trump thread, and we've had the same points made by largely the same people over and over. also: if you've had such a deep, intelligent discussion in the dems thread that i somehow missed, great! the topic has been debated! no need to do it again in another thread! also also: if you absolutely can't stand not having this discussion, here's a genuine suggestion: ask the mods for a quarantine thread specifically about the primaries. that way you filter out all the discussion about current dem politics from the dems thread and it doesn't spill over into the trump thread or USpol. you can all come together and debate the primary in the quarantine thread that way. i promise i'll drop in every now and then and point out that HRC won by 3 million votes.
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Sep 13, 2017 20:04
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Condiv posted:that's terrible, hope they pull through Ones dead reportedly. Happy Wednesday America!
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Sep 13, 2017 20:05
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Eletriarnation posted:Have you read the book? I ask because I listened to Monday's episode of Pod Save America like 30 minutes ago and they had a journalist on who read the book and said basically that it is what you said it should be and not what you said it is. Specifically, the journalist said that Hillary thoroughly owns the election result as being her fault to a large degree in the book. I haven't read it so it could be either as far as I know personally, but the incongruity is striking. The truth is that she doesn't know why she lost. She's just angry and lashing out. it's not productive at all.
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Sep 13, 2017 20:05
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So no, you haven't read it.
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Sep 13, 2017 20:06
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mcmagic posted:The truth is that she doesn't know why she lost. She's just angry and lashing out. it's not productive at all. The best part of the world today is left wingers exhuberantly regurgitating right wing talking points. This is the actual reason the party is boned.
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Sep 13, 2017 20:08
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BardoTheConsumer posted:The best part of the world today is left wingers exhuberantly regurgitating right wing talking points. This is the actual reason the party is boned. No. It's boned because clueless people like Hillary Clinton have too much power.
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Sep 13, 2017 20:10
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mcmagic posted:Running Barrack Obama and running Hillary Clinton isn't the same thing. Your ability to miss the point is the stuff of legends.
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Sep 13, 2017 20:11
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Eletriarnation posted:Have you read the book? I ask because I listened to Monday's episode of Pod Save America like 30 minutes ago and they had a journalist on who read the book and said basically that it is what you said it should be and not what you said it is. Specifically, the journalist said that Hillary thoroughly takes ownership of the election result as being her fault to a large degree in the book. I haven't read it so it could be either as far as I know personally, but the incongruity is striking. insofar as I know its not released in full yet, I have jsut read reviews and a few excerpts. There are a number of things publicly avilable right now that seem pretty congruent with my stance. For starters apparently Hillary thinks right now is a good time to start slinging poo poo at Sanders: The Independant posted:According to excerpts of her new book, What Happened, that have surfaced online Not a single mention of any of the times she adhered to the letter of the law while clearly breaking the spirit in order to enrich herself- "Crooked Hillary" stuck because Bernie Sanders criticized her during the campaign. This is not a demonstration of leadership, this is her lack of self-awareness manifesting itself.
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Sep 13, 2017 20:11
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https://www.mediaite.com/tv/clinton-i-urged-08-supporters-to-back-obama-didnt-get-that-respect-from-sanders-and-his-supporters/ How is this statement at all defensible?
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Sep 13, 2017 20:12
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botany posted:the dems thread? god no. every now and then i drop in and decide it's bad for my bloodpressure. but i read this one and the trump thread, and we've had the same points made by largely the same people over and over. i didn't even really debate the primary or the general in this thread in response to axeil slagging bernie. I just pointed out that bernie's doing well for the party. you're a bit oversensitive botany unless primary chat includes all discussion of anything bernie or hillary related, at which point i still think you're oversensitive quote:also also: if you absolutely can't stand not having this discussion, here's a genuine suggestion: ask the mods for a quarantine thread specifically about the primaries. that way you filter out all the discussion about current dem politics from the dems thread and it doesn't spill over into the trump thread or USpol. you can all come together and debate the primary in the quarantine thread that way. i promise i'll drop in every now and then and point out that HRC won by 3 million votes. why would a quarantine thread be necessary, at all? just let people discuss stuff and stop complaining. if they're discussing boring/annoying stuff, skip their posts. that's what i do when i see tedious mounds of posts
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Sep 13, 2017 20:15
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Mozi posted:So no, you haven't read it. How is her book relevant to Current US Politics?
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Sep 13, 2017 20:17
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Prester Jane posted:insofar as I know its not released in full yet, I have jsut read reviews and a few excerpts. There are a number of things publicly avilable right now that seem pretty congruent with my stance. For starters apparently Hillary thinks right now is a good time to start slinging poo poo at Sanders: Maybe she addresses those things in the rest of the 500 page book that didn't get quoted in that article? Just a possibility. Fwiw pretty much all of the people quoting select paragraphs like that article have focused on what she says about Bernie, whereas reviews from people who've read the whole thing say it's more even handed than the leaks make it appear (that I've seen anyway).
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Sep 13, 2017 20:18
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My only thought on the matter, relating to Bernies healthcare plan is that the way this is supposed to work is that we say that's great Bernie I agree with the general premise, but can we amend it to do this for this reason? This is good, it's engaging with ideas for policy. If Hillary Clinton wants to propose a bill I'll give it a look in deterrence to her prominence and career as public servant but I don't see that yet. We need ideas, not people to believe in.
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Sep 13, 2017 20:18
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:How is her book relevant to Current US Politics? What, last November is ancient history now?
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Sep 13, 2017 20:18
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Mustached Demon posted:Ones dead reportedly. that sucks in brighter news: https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/907990867553800192
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Sep 13, 2017 20:18
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The price we pay for freedom. 
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Sep 13, 2017 20:19
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Majorian posted:Why does this matter to you, if he caucuses with the Democrats? I still don't understand why this is such an odious thing to Clintonistas. A lot of Democratic voters aren't registered Democrats, and yet the Dems need their votes desperately. Clinton's answer to this is because she had to defend Obama and his policies from Sander's attacks during the primaries (she even outright says she was shocked she was forced to defend a Democratic President in the Democratic Primary in some of her interviews), and that she was hampered by Sander's making unsupported promises with no implementation plan that she had to respond to but was slow to do so since she actually backed up her plans with real expectations for success. Honestly I didn't follow the primaries so I don't know how true the first fact is, but the second is hypocrisy and self-delusion at it's finest.
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Sep 13, 2017 20:19
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RuanGacho posted:My only thought on the matter, relating to Bernies healthcare plan is that the way this is supposed to work is that we say that's great Bernie I agree with the general premise, but can we amend it to do this for this reason? This is good, it's engaging with ideas for policy.  hopefully, bernie's bill is good and the stuff i heard about copays being part of it isn't true
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Sep 13, 2017 20:19
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Bernouts won't stop harassing me. Like nettles in a field they wound me wherever I tread
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Sep 13, 2017 20:22
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Condiv posted:
Apparently the only copays in the bill are for prescriptions
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Sep 13, 2017 20:23
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