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Punch Drunk Drewsky posted:Curious how these moments square in. My thought throughout IT with questions of perception was that the main perspective was Derry / IT tormenting the kids. The idea Bill creates Pennywise and gets the others to play along seems at odds with the kids each telling their stories about how - no, Bill, this stuff is real and Georgie is dead and you need to accept that. Because Georgie is dead. He went playing in a ditch during a storm one afternoon, got swept away and drowned. Bill made him the boat he was playing in the water with, and Bill wasn't there to watch over him or save him because he was lying sick in bed. Pennywise is born out of the grief and anxiety and anger and guilt that Bill feels out of all of this. The other kids can emphasize, they have guilt and anxiety over things too, but Bill is motivated to try and save Georgie. He wants to beat not only death, but life itself by never losing anything, and that's where the rest of the gang is like "come on man, get over it." And in the end he learns to let go, and they all defeat Pennywise.
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Sep 15, 2017 07:41
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Simplex posted:Because Georgie is dead. He went playing in a ditch during a storm one afternoon, got swept away and drowned. Bill made him the boat he was playing in the water with, and Bill wasn't there to watch over him or save him because he was lying sick in bed. Pennywise is born out of the grief and anxiety and anger and guilt that Bill feels out of all of this. The other kids can emphasize, they have guilt and anxiety over things too, but Bill is motivated to try and save Georgie. He wants to beat not only death, but life itself by never losing anything, and that's where the rest of the gang is like "come on man, get over it." And in the end he learns to let go, and they all defeat Pennywise. Is that better than there being a literal monster? I say no.
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Sep 15, 2017 09:52
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Alan_Shore posted:Is that better than there being a literal monster? I say no. That and I think it gives a short shrift to how each kid is dealing with It since It's got this symbiotic relationship to the town fostering hatred, fear, and so on from one generation to the next. It avoids giving Richie the short shrift, as he's the most immature of the group and posturing the most to try and pretend otherwise. Collectively, much easier to beat back a clown than it is a harder to grasp concept of burning arms or pubic hair emerging from a drain with period blood or that the town's history of traumatic events creates this undercurrent of overwhelming hostility. That's why Richie's admission he's scared of clowns complete with cut to the less monstrous but still sinister clown is important - it gives an easier symbol to beat back than racism, sexism, existential fear of death, and so on - the other kids are just able to use that to work through their own traumas. Mike doesn't have to internalize racism like his grandfather did, he can beat it back. Bev doesn't have to accept her father's abuse, she can beat that back. Eddie doesn't have to accept his own mother's abuse because of her psychotic obsession with pharmaceuticals as a way of keeping her kid a kid forever, he can beat that back. And so on and so on (and considering what happens with Stan, book/miniseries fans get their in-crowd clue and audiences unfamiliar can point to one moment that makes his fate understandable.) Since It takes the form of the easiest to visualize target, it inadvertently plants the seeds for Its loss in this particular war by giving all the kids an easier to deal with symbol. And I don't think that the timeline jump from the '50s to the '80s is a coincidence here. 27/28 years from the film version of It would put Chapter 2's timeline in parallel with world events that prove none of those things can be successfully beaten back as kids and that hostility they thought specific to Derry can be felt and suspected everywhere. But collectively? Maybe.
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Sep 15, 2017 11:13
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Very well put. Not only that, but in order for It to be imagination Bev would have to attack her father, decide to run down to the deepest darkest sewers, only for the boys to discover she's gone missing, know that she's gone to the sewers, find her in the sewers, then she gets a kiss from a boy and she's magically recovered. It's absurd.
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Sep 15, 2017 11:37
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NiceGuy posted:Agreed. Finn Wolfhard kinda rules. He does. Kills it in this music video too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa3Afg3fzAQ
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Sep 15, 2017 13:23
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Director's Cut will have probably have at least these two additional sequences: 1) extended scene where the Losers Club try to hype themselves up into jumping into the quarry (presumably before Bev shows up) 2) Stan's actual bar mitzvah speech, where he puts the adults of Derry on blast WB wants to get it out by the end of the year
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Sep 15, 2017 13:44
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There's supposed to be fifteen minutes or so of additional footage that got cut. According to interviews.
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Sep 15, 2017 13:55
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I'd love to see the dam building, but I know theres no way that fits into this movie which is sad. The barrens were the prominent location of the story, and they barely played a part in the movie. On a more realistic note, I hope there's some more stuff with bowers and the bullies so they don't seem so rushed and thrown in.
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Sep 15, 2017 14:02
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Punch Drunk Drewsky posted:Eddie doesn't have to accept his own mother's abuse because of her psychotic obsession with pharmaceuticals as a way of keeping her kid a kid forever, he can beat that back.
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Sep 15, 2017 16:15
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Is a very interesting way to interpret a really great scene and has nothing to do with a "true" meaning. It's simply discussing what the movie provides you with. For example, why is Pennywise directly associated with women at least like six times in this film? That is one of the things the movie left me asking myself on my way home last night.
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Sep 15, 2017 16:27
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I'm wondering if it's meant to tie into the reveal in Part 2 that It is female and pregnant.
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Sep 15, 2017 16:51
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This movie kinda reminded me of the first Sleepaway Camp where you're actually following filthy mouthed teenagers and not adults playing teens. I also thought it was kinda funny that the kid obsessed with Street Fighter is ultimately the one to rally the troops into turning the final confrontation into a video game boss battle. The clown bashing scene oddly echos the car smashing mini game in Street Fighter.
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Sep 15, 2017 17:09
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Nroo posted:I'm wondering if it's meant to tie into the reveal in Part 2 that It is female and pregnant. That's my guess, yeah, spiders are almost always coded as female in fiction. But even aside from that, its the kind of thing that lingers. The adults don't really act all that weird, they simply are weird. Dr. Angela Ziegler posted:This has a name btw, it's called Munchausen-by-proxy and is a real mental disorder I can't remember if the book specifically refers to it as MBP but the condition was pretty well observed before it had a name and a checklist pathology, like bulimia. HUNDU THE BEAST GOD fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Sep 15, 2017 |
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Sep 15, 2017 17:35
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Nearly forgot why I was coming to this thread: https://twitter.com/IllegalOpinion/status/908724509351452673
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Sep 15, 2017 17:40
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ruddiger posted:The clown bashing scene oddly echos the car smashing mini game in Street Fighter[/spoiler]. OH! MY CLOWN
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Sep 15, 2017 17:45
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Nearly forgot why I was coming to this thread: same
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Sep 15, 2017 17:49
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Alan_Shore posted:Very well put. Not only that, but in order for It to be imagination Bev would have to attack her father, decide to run down to the deepest darkest sewers, only for the boys to discover she's gone missing, know that she's gone to the sewers, find her in the sewers, then she gets a kiss from a boy and she's magically recovered. It's absurd. Also Richie's whole attitude wouldn't make much sense. He's not chastising them for playing dumb games in the sewers, he think there's a real, present danger and he thinks the others are idiots for pursuing it.
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Sep 15, 2017 17:51
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https://twitter.com/kumivenarts/status/907441951150030848
Nroo fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Sep 15, 2017 |
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Sep 15, 2017 18:15
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Ahahaha.
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Sep 15, 2017 18:16
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It's unfortunate that people are actually latching on to this.
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Sep 15, 2017 18:22
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Alan_Shore posted:Is that better than there being a literal monster? I say no. Well you can also take (for example) Toy Story, and say "why can't the toys be literally alive when we're not looking at them?" Of course that opens the can of worms: these toys have human-level consciousness and intelligence. They speak English. If you break a Chinese knockoff 'Transmorphing Vehicle' from the dollar store, that's murder. And god help you if you own a sex toy. Think of how we're mass-producing these billions of immortal slaves. They don't even need to eat! It's hosed up, man! In literalizing the (toy) story, you've spontaneously developed the narrative of Sausage Party. But even Sausage Party explained that the food 'comes alive' because Dave Franco is visiting the supermarket while high on bath salts. And keep in mind that we're talking about a 'creature' that can teleport, shapeshift, make itself invisible, alter the very fabric of reality (by, for example, changing the layout of a house so that holes and doors appear out of nowhere), etc. It has immortality, hypnosis, antigravity. It is omnipresent. It controls the media.... And it's using these powers to harass some tweens. It has all the powers of a Reptilian alien, which King explored in the semi-sequel Dreamcatcher. In Dreamcatcher, we are told that Pennywise was, all along, just a mundane Gacy-esque serial killer - but his alter-ego John Gray simultaneously appears as a stereotypical 'grey' alien in various hallucinatory sequences (implying that Pennywise was simply driven mad by the reptilians). Like I said, this is a very basic reptilian/satanic/Jewish/illuminati conspiracy narrative. IT is a tentacled spider from another dimension that feeds on human jouissance - exactly like in The Matrix. So the thing to keep in mind is that, even if the illuminati aliens are somehow 'real', you're still getting the causality backwards. Derry isn't a lovely town because of IT. IT was caused by Derry's shittiness. IT was born of Derry - and, in the words of Nic Cage: killing IT won't bring back your goddamned honey. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Sep 15, 2017 |
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Sep 15, 2017 18:26
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Magic Hate Ball posted:It's unfortunate that people are actually latching on to this. I'm more weirded out because this is happening with two of the only horror flicks to legit terrify me in the last few years. Maybe I've got some more soul-searching to do.
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Sep 15, 2017 18:27
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Punch Drunk Drewsky posted:I'm more weirded out because this is happening with two of the only horror flicks to legit terrify me in the last few years. Maybe I've got some more soul-searching to do. That's the least surprising outcome, honestly. You only need to take power away from the things that actually have power over you. Nobody's really scared of the Blair Witch or whatever Annabelle is, so they don't need to become adorable chibi gay icons.
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Sep 15, 2017 18:45
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The appropriation of horror monsters and villains as radically queer is really fascinating and funny. It's basically internalizing this:
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Sep 15, 2017 18:48
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:The appropriation of horror monsters and villains as radically queer is really fascinating and funny. It's basically internalizing this: This is one of Pennywise' forms. You can't fool me. The hosed up eyes give it away.
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Sep 15, 2017 18:49
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It's unfortunate that people find it unfortunate that people are latching onto this.
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Sep 15, 2017 19:06
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:The appropriation of horror monsters and villains as radically queer is really fascinating and funny. It's basically internalizing this: yeah weird that a group of people traditionally downtrodden and cast out by an uncaring and xenophobic majority would find something sympathetic in things that literally scare white heteros T Bowl posted:It's unfortunate that people find it unfortunate that people are latching onto this. Pennywise brutally murders children and also a gay person so maybe yeah it is a little unfortunate
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Sep 15, 2017 19:15
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Dr. Angela Ziegler posted:That's the least surprising outcome, honestly. You only need to take power away from the things that actually have power over you. Nobody's really scared of the Blair Witch or whatever Annabelle is, so they don't need to become adorable chibi gay icons. Hah! Well, thank you for the reassurance Dr., that and Hundu's later observation put my mind at ease. I'll end up posting in this thread all day if I keep going but I've got my own writing to get to. But I wanna address something first: Tom Guycot posted:This is fun and intended though for building blocks, but a movie/show/book whatever loses something when you treat it like toy blocks devoid of any meaning but what you build. I get where you're coming from here, it's like that old saying that explaining the joke kills the joke. But, for me at least, this level of analysis helps me grow as a writer. Theory is awesome, but theory I can't put it ideas that are more commonly understood or accepted makes my enjoyment a bit counterproductive. So there's two sides of more theory-diving stuff I love, there's Hundu's usual approach - which is succinct and shows a great grasp of cinema history (love his Armond White thoughts when those come around.) I am -not- a succinct writer, but his words give me ideas as to how to condense the fustercluck of information in my brain into something resembling a rugged mountain trail. Then you've got stuff like this: SuperMechagodzilla posted:It has all the powers of a Reptilian alien, which King explored in the semi-sequel Dreamcatcher. In Dreamcatcher, we are told that Pennywise was, all along, just mundane Gacy-esquire serial killer - but his alter-ego John Gray simultaneously appears as a stereotypical 'grey' alien in various hallucinatory sequences (implying that Pennywise was simply driven mad by the reptilians). This is getting close to that sweet heroin-grade stick it in my veins "Other to the other" type poo poo (I'm probably getting my caps wrong there - I'm rusty on my Lacan.) I'm probably never going to get to the point where I'm writing my reviews like that, but there's a ton of interesting theoretical ideas I can unpack then try and find some way to reframe without losing the idea underneath. With It I've been kind of working backwards from my usual approach. I had this unhealthy trait of intellectualizing my pain first so I could store it wherever then move on to the next thing without really dealing with it. This time I wanted to be more open about my emotional response first - THEN move backward through the intellectualizing process. I'm trying to "make it" as a writer on my own terms as I can't feed my cats and wife on my State Farm war chest forever, so these kinds of theoretical lenses give me ideas about how to approach similar topics and keep trying to make my writing accessible without losing my drive to push language forward. Overall, the conversation here around It has been awesome, and if it ain't your bag it ain't your bag. Ain't no harm in you doin' you.
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Sep 15, 2017 19:21
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Magic Hate Ball posted:yeah weird that a group of people traditionally downtrodden and cast out by an uncaring and xenophobic majority would find something sympathetic in things that literally scare white heteros I wouldn't say weird, cause it's definitely not new, it's always been there from Bride of Frankenstein, Caligari, I Was A Teenage Werewolf, etc. SCARFACE is probably my favorite example. HUNDU THE BEAST GOD fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Sep 15, 2017 |
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Sep 15, 2017 19:29
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:jouissance hell yes, keep going im almost there
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Sep 15, 2017 19:32
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:I wouldn't say weird, cause it's definitely not new, it's always been there from Bride of Frankenstein, Caligari, I Was A Teenage Werewolf, etc. "I wouldn't say weird" lmao okay this from the guy who compared queer people appropriating villains to gangsters wanting to gently caress cops
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Sep 15, 2017 19:36
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It's on you to explain how that's weird.
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Sep 15, 2017 19:42
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:It's on you to explain how that's weird. I was clearly not indicating that I considered it weird.
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Sep 15, 2017 19:43
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I bring up Scarface (or Tony Montana/Camonte) because it's considered weird and keeps coming up as something that's "wrong", but the phenomenon is perfectly sensible and interesting besides.
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Sep 15, 2017 19:46
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My favorite line is when Ben calls out to Beverly as she's walking away Please don't go, girl! ... is also a song... by new kids on the block....
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Sep 15, 2017 19:48
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You were clearly drawing a line connecting the queer acceptance of villainous fictional characters and the sexual internalization of socially approved violence by cops. unless you weren't, in which case you should have better explicated your point rather than drop a lovely, vague hot take. It's nice when everyone understands what you mean.
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Sep 15, 2017 19:48
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Magic Hate Ball posted:You were clearly drawing a line connecting the queer acceptance of villainous fictional characters and the sexual internalization of socially approved violence by cops. unless you weren't, in which case you should have better explicated your point rather than drop a lovely, vague hot take. It's nice when everyone understands what you mean. Wait, what are you referring to with socially approved violence by cops? Organized crime?
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Sep 15, 2017 19:50
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i think you guys are over analyzing the fact that cops are kinda hot or the dude under all that pennywise makeup is pretty hot too
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Sep 15, 2017 19:50
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Wait, what are you referring to with socially approved violence by cops? Organized crime? 
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Sep 15, 2017 19:53
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ruddiger posted:My favorite line is when Ben calls out to Beverly as she's walking away Please don't go, girl! ... is also a song... by new kids on the block.... My theater was dead silent and i burst out laughing at that moment, and thankfully other people caught on and laughed too so it wasnt too awkward. Since it happened pretty early in the film i think people hadnt realized yet that it was a horror comedy.
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Sep 15, 2017 20:00
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