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GreyjoyBastard posted:
Oh yeah, the prosecution seems to have fully hosed the dog here. They almost certainly could have gotten him on some variety of manslaughter what with the whole shooting a seated guy five times and not being required to prove premeditation.
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:20 |
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# ? Jun 13, 2024 05:33 |
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Caros posted:It is for the prosecution trying to convict for pre-meditated murder. Yeah. Yeah because "I'm gonna kill the guy" and planting a gun are completely destroyed by him not exiting his police car drooling and going "it's killing time" while stroking his drawn gun.
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:20 |
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Ok yeah not reading anything else from the opinion, that's a racist as hell judge Is that judge elected or appointed?
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:22 |
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Just so people don't think I'm completely one-sided, there are a few cases where the cops could truly actually fear for their lives. Like this one where a dude pinned a cop between two cars and had his foot jammed on the accelerator. I think that's a pretty clear "okay he's trying to kill us" scenario. https://www.arlnow.com/2017/09/12/report-police-justified-in-officer-involved-shooting/ ARLNow posted:Report: Police Justified in Officer-Involved Shooting Arlington had another one a while back where a cop accidentally tazered another cop, that cop tried to taze the subject again, the suspect smacked the cops in the face with a giant metal pole, was still vigorously swinging the pole around and only then did the cops shoot the guy. https://www.arlnow.com/2015/11/16/report-use-of-deadly-force-in-officer-involved-shooting-justified/ ARLNow posted:
So two cases where the cops were literally in the process of being attacked and they still did other things before shooting. Compare that to the typical case where the suspect hasn't done poo poo and the first things the cops do is shoot him. Basically, more police departments need to act like this and truly use lethal force as a last resort.
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:22 |
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Caros posted:This isn't accurate. At no point in his ruling does the judge buy into the argument that the gun was planted. No his point here is to assure the police that he is on their side in assuming they're always right and will continue to work them by continuing to unreasonably presume their depiction of events without concern for facts
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:22 |
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Jaxyon posted:Yeah because "I'm gonna kill the guy" and planting a gun are completely destroyed by him not exiting his police car drooling and going "it's killing time" while stroking his drawn gun. Keep in mind, homeboy was dual-wielding a Beretta in his left and an (unauthorized) AK in his right when he went mainac cop on Anthony Lamar Smith. Spun Dog fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Sep 15, 2017 |
# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:22 |
axeil posted:
That would help but a larger issue is that a lot of people -- many of whom wear judicial robes and / or sit on juries -- are hella racist. Look at the Walter Scott shooting in South Carolina. Mistrial. Caught on video shooting unarmed fleeing suspect in the back and then planting a weapon, arrested, charged with first degree murder, prosecuted, went to trial, mistrial. The system worked right up until it hit a juror who thought a cop shooting an innocent black dude was a great idea. Our judicial system presumes good faith actors at every level, and that's a myth.
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:23 |
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UberJew posted:I really do like the line because it establishes exactly what was going on and why you're being a giant pile of intentionally dense poo poo defending the ruling. nah i'm defending the murder part of the ruling because the prosecution took a dive and/or were lazy morons the judge makes a good description of why it wasn't proven to be first degree murder and I've been saying over and over that even with the lovely prosecution I think he should have been whacked with involuntary manslaughter because he was clearly reckless / used excessive force
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:24 |
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Relentlessboredomm posted:My idea for curbing police brutality is to recognize that arguing for increased punishments, however great it feels, won't work and creates even more conflict. denver has a team of social workers that travel around with police in conjunction with the mental health center of denver. my fiancé and i are friends of the guy in charge. seems to be a pretty good program that deserves to be copied throughout the country
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:26 |
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Democrazy posted:Why would this defense not also apply to a cop killer who legally owns and open carries a gun? In a confrontation with police, they may also be jacked up on adrenaline and have legitimate concern for their life, yet I think they would face repercussions for their action. Mostly though, there isn't a jurisdiction where "I thought these identified police officers were going to unlawfully kill me, so I had to shoot first" is going to be a defense to homicide outside of some insanely egregious circumstances.
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:26 |
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:That would help but a larger issue is that a lot of people -- many of whom wear judicial robes and / or sit on juries -- are hella racist. Yeah. I remember in the early 00s jury nullification being all the rage to fight the drug war except people don't realize the main way that gets used is so that racists don't get convicted for their crimes. I don't know how you solve bad faith jurors who are not acting as arbiters of guilt/not guilt but instead walk in with an agenda and/or can never be convinced. Maybe switch juries from unanimous to 2/3rds majority? RaySmuckles posted:denver has a team of social workers that travel around with police in conjunction with the mental health center of denver. my fiancé and i are friends of the guy in charge. seems to be a pretty good program that deserves to be copied throughout the country Arlington, VA also has a program like this. Those two reports I posted up-thread are the only officer-involved shootings in Arlington in at least 3 years despite it being one of the more populous areas of the state (it's right next to DC). They also have a specially trained crisis team that goes in if they think there's a suicide threat or anything like that and amazingly enough it's worked 100% of the time and they've gotten the person into psychiatric care rather than shooting them or sending them to jail. I dislike cops in general but I give a lot of credit to my county for trying to do the right thing.
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:28 |
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:That would help but a larger issue is that a lot of people -- many of whom wear judicial robes and / or sit on juries -- are hella racist. Right so, what do we do to make that less garbage? What could have fixed, say, the Walter Scott shooting in specific? (In that specific case I'm sort of leaning somewhere between "I dunno, an external review board for an extra fuckup-catching net, with ability to... fine the poo poo out of police officers?" and "absolutely nothing would have worked, everything is hosed") edit: I guess I mean "assuming Walter Scott already got blown away" rather than something that would have made it less likely in the first place, although that probably would be even better Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Sep 15, 2017 |
# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:28 |
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I know everyone is worked up and you are trying to make a point but-axeil posted:a cop accidentally tazered another cop loving
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:29 |
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GreyjoyBastard posted:nah The judge was acting in the fine tradition of American jurisprudence embodied by Scalia and wrote whatever fit the conclusion he wanted to reach. The exact same judge absolutely could and would have written an equally persuasive opinion to the contrary on the exact same facts if he cared to, but left that line in so the police know he has always got their back. Based on his thirty years of experience, of course
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:29 |
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RaySmuckles posted:denver has a team of social workers that travel around with police in conjunction with the mental health center of denver. my fiancé and i are friends of the guy in charge. seems to be a pretty good program that deserves to be copied throughout the country Oh right, I forgot to respond there. This is fantastic and even better than the stuff that's just nefariosity-reduction.
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:29 |
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RaySmuckles posted:denver has a team of social workers that travel around with police in conjunction with the mental health center of denver. my fiancé and i are friends of the guy in charge. seems to be a pretty good program that deserves to be copied throughout the country Oh this is great thanks for telling me. Do you have a link to any articles about it or the name of the program?
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:29 |
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Caros posted:That is, actually, how it works. Could they still charge him with tampering with evidence?
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:29 |
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Crowsbeak posted:Could they still charge him with tampering with evidence? No, because they determined that they couldn't prove he actually planted it or not.
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:30 |
GreyjoyBastard posted:Right so, what do we do to make that less garbage? What could have fixed, say, the Walter Scott shooting in specific? (In that specific case I'm sort of leaning somewhere between "I dunno, an external review board for an extra fuckup-catching net, with ability to... fine the poo poo out of police officers?" and "absolutely nothing would have worked, everything is hosed") Well, they are scheduling a retrial. We also need about fifty more years of public art deconstructing the myth of the Noble Cop. Another thing South Carolina has that other states don't, is SLED, a state level law enforcement body, investigates all officer involved shootings independently. So it got to trial the stars aligned, there was video, and there was an independent investigation. Those steps worked and give us a model for the first two thirds of the issue. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Sep 15, 2017 |
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:31 |
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Dead Reckoning posted:The difference is that, in most states, citizens have an obligation to back down from armed confrontations with the police, while the police are under no such obligation. Do you think that this is a good thing or a bad thing?
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:31 |
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KickerOfMice posted:I know everyone is worked up and you are trying to make a point but- Yeah I remember reading the initial story and thinking it must've looked absolutely comical minus the whole part where a guy died and people's lives were in danger.
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:31 |
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It's a hilarious confluence that everybody posting on this subject I've noticed in the scotus thread immediately knows what the judge was doing truly, applesauce
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:31 |
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axeil posted:simple change would be to change the burden of proof for crimes committed by state enforcement agents with the logic being that they should know what is and is not appropriate more so than the average citizen. I'm fully of the opinion that we should have revised rules for officer involved shootings, particularly in light of self defense shootings against unarmed citizens. I'm of the opinion that cops should actually be held to a higher standard, not because they know the law better, but because they are signing on for this poo poo. The officer who shot Tamir Rice for example. He signed on to serve and protect, knowing the dangers involved. Perhaps it is just me, but I would rather get shot by the twelve year old, than risk shooting an unarmed child, and I feel our laws should reflect that. If you are such a coward that you shoot first because you think you see a gun, you should be in jail and should never have been a cop to begin with.
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:33 |
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Well, they are scheduling a retrial. We also need about fifty more years of public art deconstructing the myth of the Noble Cop. Yep. People that watch police procedural shows on TV have a warped view of reality with regard to police (they're perfect, noble, and infallible creatures of justice). http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0093854815604180
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:34 |
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Crowsbeak posted:Could they still charge him with tampering with evidence?
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:34 |
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UberJew posted:The judge was acting in the fine tradition of American jurisprudence embodied by Scalia and wrote whatever fit the conclusion he wanted to reach. The exact same judge absolutely could and would have written an equally persuasive opinion to the contrary on the exact same facts if he cared to, but left that line in so the police know he has always got their back. I remain unconvinced on the first degree murder charge based on the pattern of facts available (unless one of us feels like wading through the transcript to see if there's anything he left out about the gun-plantin', and I'm sure not ) but I think I'm willing to accept that the judge was wilfully complicit with the prosecution in ditching the lesser included charges.
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:35 |
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:No, because they determined that they couldn't prove he actually planted it or not. Eh, I've seem prosecutors get away with that. If police can convict a man of murder for lending his car to someone who had been found innocent of the murder, they could convict this gut for planting evidence. I mean, they won't.
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:36 |
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Dead Reckoning posted:The prosecution was never able to prove Stockley tampered with evidence. If they had, their case probably would have been a slam dunk. Of course they couldn't prove it, the judge already knew that the suspect was very black and so he must have had a gun. Kinda hard to change that kind of opinion.
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:37 |
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Caros posted:Eh, I've seem prosecutors get away with that. wait what edit: oh good, I found a footnote in the transcript re the murder verdict that wasn't mentioned on the manslaughter bit quote:The Court also believes the dangerous, highly stressful, and frenetic events during and immediately following the pursuit and shooting on December 20, 2011, are the antithesis of "cool" anything, much less reflection Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Sep 15, 2017 |
# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:37 |
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Caros posted:I'm fully of the opinion that we should have revised rules for officer involved shootings, particularly in light of self defense shootings against unarmed citizens. I agree. I've calmed down a bit, these shooting incidents make me so mad.
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:38 |
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I remain unconvinced on the first degree murder charge based on the pattern of facts available (unless one of us feels like wading through the transcript to see if there's anything he left out about the gun-plantin', and I'm sure not ) but I think I'm willing to accept that the judge was wilfully complicit with the prosecution in ditching the lesser included charges. The prosecution did ask for lesser charges of murder to be brought, just apparently not involuntary manslaughter, and the judge tossed those for having the same self defense problem as murder 1.
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:39 |
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Caros posted:Eh, I've seem prosecutors get away with that. It's already done. The prosecution asserted that he had planted the gun, but the judge determined that there was no hard evidence that he did. There is already a court decision on this particular statement of facts. The prosecutor can't redo it and try it as a separate charge.
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:39 |
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axeil posted:I don't know how you solve bad faith jurors who are not acting as arbiters of guilt/not guilt but instead walk in with an agenda and/or can never be convinced. Maybe switch juries from unanimous to 2/3rds majority?
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:41 |
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exploded mummy posted:The prosecution did ask for lesser charges of murder to be brought, just apparently not involuntary manslaughter, and the judge tossed those for having the same self defense problem as murder 1. It looks like it was auto-included and he chucked it without strongly addressing the "if reckless / excessive force, self-defense doesn't matter" clause. Second to last paragraph.
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:42 |
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Spun Dog posted:Keep in mind, homeboy was dual-wielding a Beretta in his left and an (unauthorized) AK in his right when he went mainac cop on Jason Stockley. Stockley is the cop.
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:42 |
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Dead Reckoning posted:That's a terrible idea that will have way more negative repercussions for the poor and minorities than it ever will for police. Make it only for cop shootings then
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:42 |
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Dead Reckoning posted:That's a terrible idea that will have way more negative repercussions for the poor and minorities than it ever will for police. Yeah on this I actually agree, voir dire is so beneficial to racist idiots that usually the blatantly racist rulings are unanimous anyway
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:44 |
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UberJew posted:Yeah on this I actually agree, voir dire is so beneficial to racist idiots that usually the blatantly racist rulings are unanimous anyway Maybe jury selection should be altered? No more ejecting people for any reason, you get a random sample and that's it. I dunno. It just feels like all the people with something better to do/jobs/etc weasel their way out of it and instead you end up with people who secretly really care about the case or people who may be easily mislead.
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:46 |
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Ague Proof posted:Stockley is the cop. Apologies, my brain substituted his name for Anthony Lamar Smith.
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:46 |
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# ? Jun 13, 2024 05:33 |
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This sounds so good. Every city should do this: http://www.denverpost.com/2016/09/02/mental-health-workers-join-denver-police-officers-to-help-divert-people-to-treatment-instead-of-jail/ quote:The three agencies launched a test phase of the co-responder program in April, pairing social workers with police officers to see how well they worked together. It was a success: the first teams have responded to 427 calls and of those, 408 resulted in linking people to treatment or social services instead of booking them in jail. The program is now fully staffed at six, though officials hope to expand... gently caress yea Denver.
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# ? Sep 15, 2017 18:48 |