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axeil posted:Yeah I remember reading the initial story and thinking it must've looked absolutely comical minus the whole part where a guy died and people's lives were in danger. Yes, taken out of context it is funny! See how important context is?
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Sep 15, 2017 18:48
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Hey here is an idea: maybe we shouldn't adopt a slew of anti-defendant criminal procedure reforms just in one situation the bastard tends to get off?
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Sep 15, 2017 18:48
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Relentlessboredomm posted:My idea for curbing police brutality is to recognize that arguing for increased punishments, however great it feels, won't work and creates even more conflict. I would take it a step further and make a position that is literally there to make sure cops act as peace officers instead of state militia, like they have to be monitored on site or remotely at all times and can't pull weapons without that clearance.
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Sep 15, 2017 18:49
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axeil posted:Maybe jury selection should be altered? No more ejecting people for any reason, you get a random sample and that's it. I dunno. It just feels like all the people with something better to do/jobs/etc weasel their way out of it and instead you end up with people who secretly really care about the case or people who may be easily mislead. It's a symptom of the racism and corruption of the entire system. There isn't a solution to the issue of voir dire in the absence of a solution to pay for play rights, discriminatory application of prosecutorial discretion, entrenched racism and tight coordination between judges and police that makes judges biased, etc etc
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Sep 15, 2017 18:49
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Relentlessboredomm posted:This sounds so good. Every city should do this: that's really cool. it would also create jobs, so i'm sure all the republicans are on board (narrator voice: "the republicans were not on board.")
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Sep 15, 2017 18:50
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Relentlessboredomm posted:This sounds so good. Every city should do this: Love it. 
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Sep 15, 2017 18:51
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GreyjoyBastard posted:wait what Paul Modrowski He was convicted of accountability murder (being an accomplice, basically) for lending his car to someone named Dean Faraci for use in a murder. I did have it a little backward. They convicted Modrowski two days before they found Faraci not guilty. Despite that, the appellant courts don't actually consider Faraci's not guilty verdict (or the fact that Faraci's wife later admitted to pointing blame at Modrowski to save her husband) of any relevance. I'm sure there are others like it, but to date it remains the only case I have ever heard of where an accomplice was convicted for assisting in a crime that a jury says didn't happen.
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Sep 15, 2017 18:53
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RuanGacho posted:I would take it a step further and make a position that is literally there to make sure cops act as peace officers instead of state militia, like they have to be monitored on site or remotely at all times and can't pull weapons without that clearance. Totally agree with the sentiment but I wouldn't do that. I'd end up with the same effect without casting police as liars. Oh I'd also quietly raise standards to become a police officer allowing us to wind down the force a little bit as the co-responder program built up. GreyjoyBastard posted:Love it. botany posted:that's really cool. it would also create jobs, so i'm sure all the republicans are on board (narrator voice: "the republicans were not on board.") Between this, the legalized marijuana, and that pilot program that paid for IUDs there's some really cool policy poo poo happening in CO and Denver and I have no idea why.
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Sep 15, 2017 18:55
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Relentlessboredomm posted:This sounds so good. Every city should do this: That is awesome and more police departments should do this. Arlington, VA's similar crisis intervention team has won some awards and generally seems effective too in de-escalating situations and getting people help instead of throwing them in jail. https://health.arlingtonva.us/cit/ quote:CIT is an officer safety program providing law enforcement personnel with the skills to work safely and effectively with people in crisis and to provide options beyond incarceration to people with mental illness. Officers work closely with the Department of Human Services Crisis Intervention Center to quickly connect individuals with mental health professionals. https://newsroom.arlingtonva.us/release/arlington-county-police-receive-235411/ Arlington County Police Receive Crisis Intervention Team Award posted:
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Sep 15, 2017 18:55
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axeil posted:That is awesome and more police departments should do this. Well done Arlington, but I'd prefer to pair that crisis intervention with having someone on site who is not a cop. Let someone with a very different toolset help them handle those issues.
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Sep 15, 2017 18:57
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Relentlessboredomm posted:This sounds so good. Every city should do this: hey, cool, you found it! yeah its pretty new. and the guy managing the team is arguably the coolest guy alive. just like, one of those people everyone loves, even the cops. the team couldn't be in better hands. fun fact, one of the team members drank the cool-aid and is going to the academy to become a cop, lol.
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Sep 15, 2017 18:58
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Relentlessboredomm posted:Well done Arlington, but I'd prefer to pair that crisis intervention with having someone on site who is not a cop. Let someone with a very different toolset help them handle those issues. Agreed. I think this CIT program is a good first step but Denver's program is better because a non-LEO is probably going to get a different result from someone than a cop. I think it's important that these de-escalation programs and cops doing the right thing get positive coverage and that helps lead to more and more adoption and less and less acceptance of police brutality. Arresting someone or hell, shooting them, should be seen as a tragedy and a failure if it could've been prevented (and I think it can in a lot of cases) You know, how many times do you see stories about some negotiator talking down a situation or how often do you see people getting credit for keeping things calm and things not turning into a poo poo show because they were smart and calm? I think it's important to highlight those while also vigorously pushing back on the actual instances of abuse of authority. axeil fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Sep 15, 2017 |
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Sep 15, 2017 19:01
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axeil posted:Agreed. I think this CIT program is a good first step but Denver's program is better because a non-LEO is probably going to get a different result from someone than a cop. Agreed. I'm adding these things to my list of policy proposals if I ever run or get friendly with people running.
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Sep 15, 2017 19:02
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I regularly see, "cops need malpractice insurance so they brook the cost of wrongful death suits and the like instead of the department and tax-payers," thrown around. Any serious work ups on that? Strong opinions? On its face, it sounds pretty good. axeil posted:Basically, more police departments need to act like this and truly use lethal force as a last resort. To add to this, I used to work as a security guard. Situations I've talked through? Police have killed for less. Like, a lot less. And I am a fat nerd pussy. The standards police are held to are very unreasonable, imo.
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Sep 15, 2017 19:09
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Accretionist posted:I regularly see, "cops need malpractice insurance so they brook the cost of wrongful death suits and the like instead of the department and tax-payers," thrown around. Any serious work ups on that? Strong opinions? The problem with this is that it puts the onus on individual officers without dealing with the ineffectual and corrupt bureaucracy that supposedly oversees them. It's also introducing more private corporate influence over our nominal law enforcement agencies.
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Sep 15, 2017 19:12
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Accretionist posted:I regularly see, "cops need malpractice insurance so they brook the cost of wrongful death suits and the like instead of the department and tax-payers," thrown around. Any serious work ups on that? Strong opinions? Yeah I think that's a good point. If the instinct is "shoot first, ask questions later" then that's what's going to happen.
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Sep 15, 2017 19:12
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RaySmuckles posted:hey, cool, you found it! yeah its pretty new. and the guy managing the team is arguably the coolest guy alive. just like, one of those people everyone loves, even the cops. the team couldn't be in better hands. fun fact, one of the team members drank the cool-aid and is going to the academy to become a cop, lol. Well I mean, better him than most anybody else. 
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Sep 15, 2017 19:14
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Lightning Knight posted:The problem with this is that it puts the onus on individual officers without dealing with the ineffectual and corrupt bureaucracy that supposedly oversees them. Yeah it's a tradeoff. I honestly don't know whether I like or dislike the idea.
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Sep 15, 2017 19:17
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Relentlessboredomm posted:Between this, the legalized marijuana, and that pilot program that paid for IUDs there's some really cool policy poo poo happening in CO and Denver and I have no idea why. because colorado is cool as hell, obviously. we're not perfect though. we still have an anti-camping ban from OWS that is used almost exclusively to harass homeless people. i think i'll write a screed: i think colorado, well, the front range really, is super liberal for a couple of reasons. 1) colorado is the wild west. outside of the denver area there really isn't much of anything. yeah there are the springs and ft collins (i'd consider boulder part of the denver metro area) but those places are pretty small and not particularly influential to the state. other than that its just pockets of population in the mountains, or worse in the eastern planes. what that means is that the state has a long history of libertarianism, which opens the door for things like drug legalization. 2) colorado is not an economic powerhouse. that means people moving here are doing so for reasons other than money (relatively). so when you have a lot of people moving somewhere for reasons other than money, odds are they'll probably have a more left leaning skew. also, there aren't a lot of super powerful interests holding the state hostage because despite this being the most popular place in the country, no one really knows what the economic outputs of colorado really are. every just assumes "denver's a big city, there'll be jobs" but colorado isn't exactly a massive producer of anything. so, no big business, no big business agenda 3) boulder is a big influence on denver and i'm sure everyone's familiar with boulder. if the rich people in your state are liberal then you'll probably get liberal policies. 4) the activities that attract people to denver probably skew left-leaning. outdoor sports, nature stuff, and a super chill city vibe strike me as things leftists would be attracted to 5) long history of being a chill place. its traditionally a working class town and a haven for the homeless (weather and rail--ways) 6) young people from more developed areas move here in droves to start new lives. they take the cool stuff from where they came from with them. i'm still hoping to see the quality of education in colorado improve since so many people from states with real school systems are moving here and will probably want their kids to be educated like them. that is, assuming everyone stays when they have kids which may not happen since its comically expensive, there aren't enough good jobs, and extended family (for the transplants) is really important these days when raising kids because childcare is expensive. anyway, colorado's closed. don't move here. and if you live here and own property and are thinking about leaving, please do and sell you house cheap. thanks. GreyjoyBastard posted:Well I mean, better him than most anybody else. its a lady that works for him but yeah, a licensed social worker turned cop is probably light years ahead of the other cops
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Sep 15, 2017 19:17
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Didn't a colorado city also fix it's homelessness problem by going "Hey we have all those empty apartments from the housing bubble and homeless people. lets put them together."
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Sep 15, 2017 19:20
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PhazonLink posted:Didn't a colorado city also fix it's homelessness problem by going "Hey we have all those empty apartments from the housing bubble and homeless people. lets put them together." No, that was Utah.
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Sep 15, 2017 19:20
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PhazonLink posted:Didn't a colorado city also fix it's homelessness problem by going "Hey we have all those empty apartments from the housing bubble and homeless people. lets put them together." Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:No, that was Utah. yeah, the denver area has a bit of a crisis regarding low-income housing. and regular income housing. it was a big deal that they just built(?)/planned to build(?) an 88 unit low-income housing facility i think explicitly for homeless people and people with mental health conditions. 88 units is virtually nothing
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Sep 15, 2017 19:23
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Lightning Knight posted:The problem with this is that it puts the onus on individual officers without dealing with the ineffectual and corrupt bureaucracy that supposedly oversees them. Yeah, it's limited in scope but the benefit is that it'd circumvent that bureaucracy and directly access/impact the officers in question. Presently, the cost of their malfeasance is an externality. The community pays, the community suffers. With mandatory 'malpractice insurance,' the individual officers pay and suffer, too. It'd be a mechanism but it seems like it'd be a useful one. Hypothetically, such a system could even price psychos out of the profession. quote:It's also introducing more private corporate influence over our nominal law enforcement agencies. I bet you could sell state governments on running this as a government sponsored enterprise. Quasi-private but a new source of revenue. The incentives line up for the state and the police to be forever at odds. Would that reduce risk of collusion? Seems possible A serious work up on this could be pretty interesting.
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Sep 15, 2017 19:23
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There would probably be actual riots if they started giving houses in downtown Denver to homeless people.
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Sep 15, 2017 19:24
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Accretionist posted:Yeah, it's limited in scope but the benefit is that it'd circumvent that bureaucracy and directly access/impact the officers in question. Presently, the cost of their malfeasance is an externality. The community pays, the community suffers. With mandatory 'malpractice insurance,' the individual officers pay and suffer, too. "Pricing psychos out of the market" implies that most of them are poorer, when your average police officer is more likely to come from a more affluent suburban background. I mean, I see the appeal. I just don't think that the individual racism of police officers is the driving force at work here, versus the structural racism and classism of the system that protects and influences them. Shaping solutions around individual officers is an idea, but I'm pessimistic on its overall impact versus something like increased independent oversight and a reduction of police union power. I also don't think states would be enthusiastic about this as you say, since they are usually complicit in aiding and abetting police brutality.
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Sep 15, 2017 19:28
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:There would probably be actual riots if they started giving houses in downtown Denver to homeless people. even i'd probably be pretty peeved my neighborhood doesn't have houses under $350,000 anymore. up from about $150,000 5 years ago. those $350K houses are all serious fixer-uppers. a "normal" house is closer to half a million. which remember, is in a city that doesn't have anywhere near the earning potential of most major cities. could be worse though. our friends in california just bought a small house for $850,000 in San Jose. she's a social worker and he does IT for a school. how the gently caress are they ever supposed to pay that off, lmao? that's more expensive than my rich sister's opulent NYC suburb house in one of the fanciest towns in new jersey ($750,000) and she and her husband both pull down hearty six-figure manhattan jobs.
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Sep 15, 2017 19:29
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Lightning Knight posted:The problem with this is that it puts the onus on individual officers without dealing with the ineffectual and corrupt bureaucracy that supposedly oversees them. Yeah. The problem is layered but the good proposals I've seen are: 1) independent investigations and prosecutions. Officer involved shootings need to be investigated by someone independent from the officers' chain of command, and prosecuted by prosecutors their department does not work with. 2) common standards. Officers accused of crimes need to be treated the same way and according to the same standards as other citizens. No special rights or delays in the investigative process, no special standards at trial. 3) clear records must be kept. Body cams, car cams, etc. 4) better training and training reform. The cops who shot that guy in the walmart because he had a toy gun had been to a training on responding to mass shootings two days prior, and if you look at the materials it was basically SCARY BROWNS MURDER COPS, the continuing education seminar. This is a common theme; there are a lot of "experts" who make their living training cops to shoot first and then justifying that training by testifying as experts at cop trials. That type of training needs to be discredited and discontinued, and replaced with things like CIT training and ride along social workers etc. As mentioned above. That still leaves the general problem of racism but that's a broader reform.
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Sep 15, 2017 19:30
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:There would probably be actual riots if they started giving houses in downtown Denver to homeless people. This is the dumbest poo poo. Not only is it loving cruel to the homeless but abandoned houses are just gonna keep getting worse and depreciate. It's better to have someone living there and taking care of the place which I'm sure they'd be able to do especially if they had access to proper resources and mental health care.
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Sep 15, 2017 19:31
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Imo the problems with the housing market shouldn't preclude us from housing the homeless. Housing the homeless won't have a significant impact on overpriced homes, mad as it might make NIMBY suburbanites.
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Sep 15, 2017 19:33
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RaySmuckles posted:even i'd probably be pretty peeved Hell, I'm up in the suburbs north of Denver and even my house has basically doubled in price over 16 months. I haven't seen anything lower than $300,000 go on the market since early 2016.
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Sep 15, 2017 19:33
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Body cam records also need to be stored by a third party, or have have independent oversight.
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Sep 15, 2017 19:38
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Koalas March posted:This is the dumbest poo poo. Not only is it loving cruel to the homeless but abandoned houses are just gonna keep getting worse and depreciate. It's better to have someone living there and taking care of the place which I'm sure they'd be able to do especially if they had access to proper resources and mental health care. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...m=.5a096ed10173
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Sep 15, 2017 19:40
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Javes posted:Body cam records also need to be stored by a third party, or have have independent oversight.
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Sep 15, 2017 19:42
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Lightning Knight posted:Shaping solutions around individual officers is an idea, but I'm pessimistic on its overall impact versus something like increased independent oversight and a reduction of police union power. Well, I don't see why this would be done to the exclusion of anything else.
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Sep 15, 2017 19:46
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Lightning Knight posted:Imo the problems with the housing market shouldn't preclude us from housing the homeless. Housing the homeless won't have a significant impact on overpriced homes, mad as it might make NIMBY suburbanites. oh i agree. denver desperately needs more moderately costed housing, including low/no income housing. just saying i'd probably be a little peeved if they just started a policy to giving away housing when the city is so desperately short of it. like give away a ton of housing as long as you have a plan to also build a shitload more it, and not just stuff designed for the rich
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Sep 15, 2017 19:47
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Accretionist posted:Well, I don't see why this would be done to the exclusion of anything else. I don't disagree, except as a matter of movements only having so much energy to spend and so much ability to brand policies for the general population. I don't think your idea is bad, I just think the stuff HA said is probably better. ^ no disagreement from me, just making sure we're on the same page.
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Sep 15, 2017 19:48
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Is there a major American city not in the midst of a housing crisis?
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Sep 15, 2017 19:51
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Something massive and fundamental is going to have to change with the police in America before anything starts to get better. Gradual improvements that lead to police taking responsibility for their actions are always displayed by FOX news' evening talk show chyrons as, and I quote, war on cops.
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Sep 15, 2017 19:52
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KickerOfMice posted:Something massive and fundamental is going to have to change with the police in America before anything starts to get better. Gradual improvements that lead to police taking responsibility for their actions are always displayed by FOX news' evening talk show chyrons as, and I quote, war on cops. Something massive and fundamental is already happening, it's called Black Lives Matter and we have to push the Democratic Party to stop shying away from them and back them up. MLK never broke 40% support in the '60s. But he still got institutional support by direct popular protest. That's where we sit today.
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Sep 15, 2017 19:54
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Relentlessboredomm posted:Is there a major American city not in the midst of a housing crisis? Zillow lets you search nationally and it looks like economically-imploded cities are affordable and that's it.
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Sep 15, 2017 19:54
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