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Dead Reckoning posted:
I think the argument is more for an even common standard to which all defendants are held, whether or not they wear a badge. On top of the wider discretion cops are allowed at trial -- functionally, juries are applying a subjective fear test, not an objectively reasonable test (or alternatively are just deciding that it's objectively reasonable to be so afraid of black people you shoot them), there are also a lot of procedural protections that cops get that ordinary citizens usually don't. See, e.g., quote:
http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-police-unions/ quote:State laws give wide latitude to police when it comes to use of force in Louisiana, where Brown died, the legislature recently passed a "bill of rights" for suspect cops, including protections most criminal defendants don't get and local prosecutors can be reluctant to charge members of a department they work with closely on a daily basis. https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-07-13/why-arent-police-held-accountable-for-shooting-black-men https://signal108.com/2012/02/29/louisiana-police-officers-bill-of-rights-primer/ Cops need to be put, as much as possible, on an even playing field when charged with crimes. If anything, they should be held to a higher standard, but I get your constitutional arguments, so let's just hold them to the same standards everyone else is. Remove their special legal protections, and ensure that all officer-involved crimes are investigated by outside prosecutors and moved to different venues so as to avoid conflicts of interest.
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Sep 15, 2017 23:35
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logosanatic posted:theres no situation where a homeless person does anything but destroy a property and spread feces all over the walls. they are homeless for a reason. the few times ive sat down with homeless people to feed them and talked to them about helping them turn their life around ive anecdotally learned that its all substance abuse based. and theyre ok enough with their life. they have stolen cell phones they can connect to burger king wifi and scrounge together some food and money for drugs. sometimes the woman talk about wantint different life but cant kick the habit. the men just dont care Haha scope out this shithead
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Sep 15, 2017 23:36
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RaySmuckles posted:goodness, isn't that the dream I'm hearing the people sing here
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Sep 15, 2017 23:38
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Calibanibal posted:Haha scope out this shithead I always see this type of poo poo on the internet and I can't just imagine how these conversations go(assuming they're not stdh): "Hey how does it feel to be the absolute scum of the earth leach on society and aren't I great for buying you this big mac?" *homeless person desperately trying to grasp some sort of positive for the sake of conversation*: "well i guess my life isn't so bad, I get wifi sometimes and the weather around here means I don't freeze to death" "SEE you like being homeless"
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Sep 15, 2017 23:41
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logosanatic posted:theres no situation where a homeless person does anything but destroy a property and spread feces all over the walls. they are homeless for a reason. the few times ive sat down with homeless people to feed them and talked to them about helping them turn their life around ive anecdotally learned that its all substance abuse based. and theyre ok enough with their life. they have stolen cell phones they can connect to burger king wifi and scrounge together some food and money for drugs. sometimes the woman talk about wantint different life but cant kick the habit. the men just dont care Go gently caress yourself.
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Sep 15, 2017 23:41
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RaySmuckles posted:i see no problem with this, other than linking the office with an elected official who may need police union sponsorship for his campaign (i can't remember if inspector generals are elected or not ). Insulating important government officials from public or factional pressure in a democracy is one of those big fundamental issues where we're all just sort of doing the best we can.
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Sep 15, 2017 23:44
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logosanatic posted:theres no situation where a homeless person does anything but destroy a property and spread feces all over the walls. they are homeless for a reason. the few times ive sat down with homeless people to feed them and talked to them about helping them turn their life around ive anecdotally learned that its all substance abuse based. and theyre ok enough with their life. they have stolen cell phones they can connect to burger king wifi and scrounge together some food and money for drugs. sometimes the woman talk about wantint different life but cant kick the habit. the men just dont care Special Message From Senor Lowtax Thank you, but this thread has already been reported recently! Click here to return to the forums.
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Sep 15, 2017 23:46
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logosanatic posted:theres no situation where a homeless person does anything but destroy a property and spread feces all over the walls. they are homeless for a reason. the few times ive sat down with homeless people to feed them and talked to them about helping them turn their life around ive anecdotally learned that its all substance abuse based. and theyre ok enough with their life. they have stolen cell phones they can connect to burger king wifi and scrounge together some food and money for drugs. sometimes the woman talk about wantint different life but cant kick the habit. the men just dont care I have done peer to peer counseling with homeless adults and teens and you can go gently caress yourself with Bill O'Reilly's falafel. Seriously quit your job you loving piece of poo poo. I hope that for the good of society you are placed in a medically induced coma and they give your home to a literal poo poo fetishist because they are still a more productive member than you are.
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Sep 15, 2017 23:47
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Hi, worked with a homeless shelter in Burlington VT four years. Homelessness is reaaaaaaalllllyyy broad. If your bottom line is anything other than "provide better shelter, provide some healthcare" then you're really not being helpful, full stop, to working the problem.
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Sep 15, 2017 23:51
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Potato Salad posted:Hi, worked with a homeless shelter in Burlington VT four years. I hear that if you give a home to a homeless person then they're not homeless anymore Problem Solved
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Sep 15, 2017 23:57
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khy posted:I hear that if you give a home to a homeless person then they're not homeless anymore That is literally the current scientific best practice Turns out they've done studies on it and the best way to keep people from being homeless is to give them homes All the other services they may need are a lot easier to arrange if there's a fixed address.
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Sep 15, 2017 23:58
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:That is literally the current scientific best practice I know, it's what they do here in Utah and it works. And despite the fact that it sounds like a joke it's absolutely working here. It's ironic because everyone likes to assign blame and argue about how they got there but the solution is so ridiculously easy and effective that we spend more time arguing about the problem than fixing it
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Sep 16, 2017 00:04
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logosanatic posted:theres no situation where a homeless person does anything but destroy a property and spread feces all over the walls. they are homeless for a reason. the few times ive sat down with homeless people to feed them and talked to them about helping them turn their life around ive anecdotally learned that its all substance abuse based. and theyre ok enough with their life. they have stolen cell phones they can connect to burger king wifi and scrounge together some food and money for drugs. sometimes the woman talk about wantint different life but cant kick the habit. the men just dont care I started reading this expecting it to be a joke post but the joke never came. I worked in behavioral health for three years, can confirm that not all homeless people are poo poo fetishists.
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Sep 16, 2017 00:08
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RuanGacho posted:It's possible now, I just don't know where I'm going to get the money to octuple the size of my storage array just for the dozen officers I support right now. It's not so simple as clouding it because it needs evidentiary custody and public records access. There are also questions of how to protect the identity of informants and witnesses, also most cops I've talked too are worried about having their shits and pisses recorded for posterity as well as their breaks and shooting the poo poo with each other or talking to their families. It is all in the realm of working on some technical details rather than pie in the sky how do we do this though. Hieronymous Alloy posted:That is literally the current scientific best practice Isn't it also significantly cheaper and better for the community as a whole? You know, aside from being the right and moral thing to do.
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Sep 16, 2017 00:09
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KickerOfMice posted:A few people in here were self-admittedly playing devil's advocate to explain the legal mechanics. Yah, a few of the same people who always seem to crop up whenever someone is killed by a cop. It's like sending up the bat signal.
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Sep 16, 2017 00:13
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logosanatic posted:theres no situation where a homeless person does anything but destroy a property and spread feces all over the walls. they are homeless for a reason. the few times ive sat down with homeless people to feed them and talked to them about helping them turn their life around ive anecdotally learned that its all substance abuse based. and theyre ok enough with their life. they have stolen cell phones they can connect to burger king wifi and scrounge together some food and money for drugs. sometimes the woman talk about wantint different life but cant kick the habit. the men just dont care I've seen surveys of my metro's homeless population. Many are of fully sound mind, with top causes for homelessness including domestic abuse and simple poverty. Hieronymous Alloy posted:That is literally the current scientific best practice And it may be cheaper. The chronically homeless have significant overhead by way of police calls, jail time, ER visits, etc. Housing programs can be straight up cheaper. quote:A new study released by the Central Florida Commission on Homelessness reveals that doing nothing about homelessness costs Florida residents more than if the state were to house them. Accretionist fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Sep 16, 2017 |
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Sep 16, 2017 00:13
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Potato Salad posted:Hi, worked with a homeless shelter in Burlington VT four years. hi, marrying a licensed clinical social worker specializing in mental health providing shelter probably has the biggest impact on peoples' wellbeing like hieronymous alloy said yes, obviously there's a lot more that needs to be done, but if you're looking to resolve those issues quicker, getting some safe shelter is a major priority. a fixed address is invaluable for finding people that need help and getting people back on a healthy path
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Sep 16, 2017 00:17
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khy posted:I know, it's what they do here in Utah and it works. And despite the fact that it sounds like a joke it's absolutely working here.
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Sep 16, 2017 00:18
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I expect it to turn out similarly to the Boston event a few weeks back, but about midday tomorrow there'll be a neo-Confederate rally on Monument Avenue in Richmond, right in front of the Mother Of All Robert E. Lee statues. The group responsible, which literally calls themselves the New Confederate States of America, has neither applied for nor received a permit to demonstrate on state property (the circle around Lee belongs to the state), or to demonstrate in the City of Richmond. The state police have cordoned off the actual circle of state property, but the city says as long as the protest doesn't block traffic, they can't block it from taking place. There are expected to be a huge number of counterprotestors, and officials say there's no way to be sure how many white nationalist demonstrators can be expected because a) they haven't filed for any permits, b) the group is from out of state and doesn't publish membership information, and c) these groups have a history of busing in people from across the country. Now, Richmond is better prepared than Charlottesville was, because it's not a small university town and in addition to the city cops there will be state and capitol police and officers from nearby VCU's police force. But since this is all very unofficial, they won't be able to separate protestors from counterprotestors, and because Virginia has  literally the worst gun laws, all weapons are banned except for guns which will be present in huge quantities! So there is a chance this will all go super downhill, and I live on the next block over, so there's an outside chance my car gets set on fire by Nazis. 
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Sep 16, 2017 00:18
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Gyges posted:Isn't it also significantly cheaper and better for the community as a whole? You know, aside from being the right and moral thing to do. Jail time, EMT and ambulance calls, emergency room visits, and the various other forms of aid offered are not cheap. Unless we were to turn into a heartless, cruel, and evil society and saying horrible poo poo like "Just let them die in the streets and let their corpses rot in the gutters" the public ends up paying more to keep them alive than the cost of refurbishing buildings and turning them into assisted living. And then crazy poo poo happens like people getting jobs, becoming productive, and actively turning their lives around. I mean there's always people who just won't be able to do that but even then it's cheaper to give someone cheap food and a warm home than to call dozens of thousand-dollar-ambulance-rides for heatstroke, frostbite, and all the other horrible poo poo that can happen when you live out in the open. Dead Reckoning posted:Unfortunately, the drastically reduced number of homeless in Utah's count has more to do with changing the way homeless are counted than anything else. Don't get me wrong, we should be looking for a way to hook the homeless up with permanency and a stake in the community where possible, but most of the chronically homeless have a whole spectrum of issues that a fixed address won't resolve. I'm not saying I back up those numbers. When I drive past pioneer park I still see people out there with shopping carts and blankets. But the fact is that even though they cooked the numbers to make it seem like homelessness doesn't exist in SLC, it's still improving. The numbers ARE going down, people ARE getting help and costs ARE going down. Unfortunately the legislators and bureaucrats who want to show off that the program is working like bigger, better numbers that make impressive headlines. They pressure the reporters and reports going out to sound better than they do. That doesn't mean the program isn't working or isn't worth it. khy fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Sep 16, 2017 |
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Sep 16, 2017 00:18
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Gyges posted:There are also questions of how to protect the identity of informants and witnesses, also most cops I've talked too are worried about having their shits and pisses recorded for posterity as well as their breaks and shooting the poo poo with each other or talking to their families. It is all in the realm of working on some technical details rather than pie in the sky how do we do this though. its funny to me because a lot of the argument for the security state we live in is "why be afraid if you've got nothing to hide" shouldn't that same standard be applied to the police? i get that things like "working with CIs" and bathroom breaks add a bit more complexity to that, but like you said, those are details that can easily be ironed out
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Sep 16, 2017 00:21
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Dead Reckoning posted:Unfortunately, the drastically reduced number of homeless in Utah's count has more to do with changing the way homeless are counted than anything else. Don't get me wrong, we should be looking for a way to hook the homeless up with permanency and a stake in the community where possible, but most of the chronically homeless have a whole spectrum of issues that a fixed address won't resolve. I'm kinda suspicious of an analysis by the American Enterprise Institute on this question. It sounds like quote:
Could mean that "those people in long term shelters were moved to long term shelters that were in fact their homes, and thus no longer counted as chronically homeless." I'd like to see a counterpoint article that isn't just this one AEI guy making claims.
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Sep 16, 2017 00:22
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If Utah's transitional housing programs are anything like the ones I was involved in calling them "long term homeless shelters" is something only a disingenuous moron would do.
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Sep 16, 2017 00:31
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Keep in mind that the 91% figure is also for a specific portion of the homeless population, and not the homeless population as a whole. Headlines like "Utah has not solved homelessness" are misleading as hell.quote:The chronically homeless, on the other hand, are a subset of the homeless population that is often the most vulnerable. These are people who have been living on the streets for more than a year, or four times in the past three years, and who have a "disabling condition" that might include serious mental illness, an addiction or a physical disability or illness. All in all Utah still has well over 10,000 homeless people out there but this particular segment of the homeless population is particularly expensive to deal with due to the frequent medical costs associated with their long-term homelessness and disabling conditions. No one is about to just start handing out homes to anyone anywhere that decides to quit their job and live out on the streets. So Johnny Panhandler who's lazy but employable isn't going to be getting a free apartment. But the people who are the worst off and need help the most are getting it, and making GBS threads all over that initiative is not helping anyone at all. khy fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Sep 16, 2017 |
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Sep 16, 2017 00:39
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I spoke with Giuliani on the issue and he said to have all the homeless secretly killed and pushed into the East River, but I don't think that's viable or even possible outside of New York.
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Sep 16, 2017 00:40
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Great Metal Jesus posted:If Utah's transitional housing programs are anything like the ones I was involved in calling them "long term homeless shelters" is something only a disingenuous moron would do. quote:On March 25, 2010, AEI resident fellow David Frum announced that his position at the organization had been "terminated."[162][163] Following this announcement, media outlets speculated that Frum had been "forced out"[164][165][166] for writing an editorial called "Waterloo", in which he criticized the Republican Party's unwillingness to bargain with Democrats on the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. In the editorial, Frum claimed that his party's failure to reach a deal "led us to abject and irreversible defeat."[167] quote:The Irving Kristol Award is the highest honor conferred by the American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research.
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Sep 16, 2017 00:47
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Dead Reckoning posted:Unfortunately, the drastically reduced number of homeless in Utah's count has more to do with changing the way homeless are counted than anything else. Don't get me wrong, we should be looking for a way to hook the homeless up with permanency and a stake in the community where possible, but most of the chronically homeless have a whole spectrum of issues that a fixed address won't resolve. Jesus Christ do you have a poo poo opinion on literally everything?
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Sep 16, 2017 00:49
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Dead Reckoning posted:Unfortunately, the drastically reduced number of homeless in Utah's count has more to do with changing the way homeless are counted than anything else. Don't get me wrong, we should be looking for a way to hook the homeless up with permanency and a stake in the community where possible, but most of the chronically homeless have a whole spectrum of issues that a fixed address won't resolve. A fixed address doesn't fix everything in itself, but it provided an essential foundation on which a person can work toward recovery.
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Sep 16, 2017 00:55
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Potato Salad posted:Hi, worked with a homeless shelter in Burlington VT four years. Soup kitchens / free cafeterias too Actually I've been pondering this as a potentially locally viable quasi-GMI. I wonder what the math would look like (especially?) if it were in the general structure of a pay what you can joint. Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Sep 16, 2017 |
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Sep 16, 2017 00:57
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Spun Dog posted:Yah, a few of the same people who always seem to crop up whenever someone is killed by a cop. It's like sending up the bat signal. Hey  Edit: although I guess without the implication that's actually a totally reasonable description of me, carry on
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Sep 16, 2017 00:58
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Dead Reckoning posted:Unfortunately, the drastically reduced number of homeless in Utah's count has more to do with changing the way homeless are counted than anything else. Don't get me wrong, we should be looking for a way to hook the homeless up with permanency and a stake in the community where possible, but most of the chronically homeless have a whole spectrum of issues that a fixed address won't resolve. interestingly, as already noted, a fixed address for a homeless person seems to solve the problem of homelessness. incredibly, this allows the previously-homeless to then focus on and receive help for their other issues, such as 'schizophrenia', or 'addicted to substance abuse' or 'suffering ptsd' or 'victim of domestic violence'. homelessness is typically the outer shell of a matryoshka doll of awful garbage. your dumb statement is akin to disregarding needles because the antibiotic in the barrel is more effective.
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Sep 16, 2017 01:04
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https://twitter.com/SarahSpain/status/908845565424873473 How? How does the day keep getting dumber?
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Sep 16, 2017 01:29
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alpha_destroy posted:https://twitter.com/SarahSpain/status/908845565424873473 I'm all for the concept of people reintegrating into society after they serve their time, but that requires rehabilitation. Somehow I think this the guy accusing campuses of 'anti-male' bias is probably still an rear end in a top hat.
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Sep 16, 2017 01:44
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Relentlessboredomm posted:Is there a major American city not in the midst of a housing crisis? Nope. Not even loving Phoenix, where housing prices keep rising and apartments are getting scarce and expensive.
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Sep 16, 2017 01:50
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khy posted:I hear that if you give a home to a homeless person then they're not homeless anymore Wrong - there is LITERALLY NO SITUATION where they don't end up covering the walls with feces, 100% of the time 
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Sep 16, 2017 02:04
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Koalas March posted:I have done peer to peer counseling with homeless adults and teens and you can go gently caress yourself with Bill O'Reilly's falafel. KM... got... the receipts?
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Sep 16, 2017 02:05
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Jaxyon posted:Jesus Christ do you have a poo poo opinion on literally everything? mods namechange dead reckoning to well, actually
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Sep 16, 2017 02:10
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Jaxyon posted:Jesus Christ do you have a poo poo opinion on literally everything?
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Sep 16, 2017 02:53
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Dead Reckoning posted:What the gently caress. I work in EMS and I probably have more regular contact with the chronically homeless than 90% of the posters here, but apparently if I say it, "'beep boop, give homeless people a home, so simple' isn't a a panacea and fails to address their underlying issues in many cases" is apparently some Randian prescription for mulching the poor into soylent. Maybe you need to take a second look at the way you post if it leads to this kind of negative reaction that you don't seem to enjoy. Stop playing Devil's Advocate for awful things all the time you loving monster
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Sep 16, 2017 02:54
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Can't give the homeless housing, it doesn't solve the healthcare issues. Can't give them healthcare, no address to mail the outrageous bill. Not so simple as you socialists might think.
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Sep 16, 2017 03:00
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