|
General Dog posted:The Empire of the OT always seemed like a really banal strain of evil. We never met many zealots, most everybody was a 9-5 type who was just putting in hours- talking about cars, bitching about all the drills, and trying not to get choked to death by their boss. Wasn't the OT Empire space racists that only let humans work for them and also employed the use of weapons of mass destruction to genocide a whole planet?
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2017 19:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 22:10 |
|
|
Spacebump posted:Wasn't the OT Empire space racists that only let humans work for them and also employed the use of weapons of mass destruction to genocide a whole planet? Sure, but that's not a contradiction.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2017 19:55
|
|
|
The Empire is introduced as something you could go on a drat fool idealistic crusade against, but your stick-in-the-mud uncle can ultimately live with. The Empire is famine in Africa. The Empire is war in the Middle East. The Empire is fossil fuels.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2017 20:00
|
|
|
Spacebump posted:Wasn't the OT Empire space racists that only let humans work for them and also employed the use of weapons of mass destruction to genocide a whole planet? Yeah, the British Empire basically. What's more banal than the British Empire?
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2017 20:04
|
|
|
Hux is a really fun character. His relationship with Kylo is really interesting.Craptacular! posted:Also, I'm less annoyed by Kylo Ren than I am by Hux taking the new Imperials into much more blatantly Nazi-like tone with the one scene. Part of the fun of Star Wars, like pro wrestling, is that there's some people that want to cheer for the bad guys. (And why not, since they live in sleek and cool Buck Rogers spaceships while the good guys fly rusted out buckets.) this is some hail zeon territory
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2017 20:19
|
|
|
Watching the 03 Clone Wars series. Good voice actors, strange format (lots of 3-minute microepisodes) Granted, the DVD is seamless
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2017 20:27
|
|
|
Alec Eiffel posted:Watching the 03 Clone Wars series. Good voice actors, strange format (lots of 3-minute microepisodes) I think you can find it all on YouTube anyway. I found it a couple years ago intending to watch a few minutes out of curiosity but sat through the whole thing.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2017 20:38
|
|
|
The Mace Windu scene with the big-rear end ground pounder kicked rear end
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2017 21:00
|
|
|
the most operator star wars guys right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnwXu0ZpySY
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2017 21:50
|
|
|
^ Yeah, that and Grievous' first scene pretty much sold me.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2017 22:28
|
|
|
Wild Horses posted:the most operator star wars guys right here:
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2017 23:20
|
|
|
well why not posted:"Why are the baddes overtly Nazis?" It's irrelevant to me that Rey is female. If she was male I still would object to how overpowered he/she is. The fact that so many people bring it up should tell licasdilm that there was a problem in her portrayal. Luke didn't really display the power that Rey could until the 3rd film and even then he would have failed if Vader didn't intervene and help him. Rey is at return of the Jedi level by the middle of movie one because the studio wanted to get into Jedi fan service and call backs to the old films asap.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 00:01
|
|
|
Spacebump posted:Wasn't the OT Empire space racists that only let humans work for them and also employed the use of weapons of mass destruction to genocide a whole planet? Thrawn was a high ranking Imperial in both old and new canon
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 00:08
|
|
|
Mr President posted:Thrawn was a high ranking Imperial in both old and new canon Thrawn is the Colin Powell of the Star Wars Universe
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 00:20
|
|
|
Thrawn does not appear in a Star Wars movie.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 00:31
|
|
|
Mr President posted:It's irrelevant to me that Rey is female. If she was male I still would object to how overpowered he/she is. The fact that so many people bring it up should tell licasdilm that there was a problem in her portrayal. Luke didn't really display the power that Rey could until the 3rd film and even then he would have failed if Vader didn't intervene and help him. Rey is at return of the Jedi level by the middle of movie one because the studio wanted to get into Jedi fan service and call backs to the old films asap. Rey is not Luke.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 00:48
|
|
|
Mr President posted:Thrawn was a high ranking Imperial in both old and new canon He might exist in canon but does he really if they never put him in a movie or mention his name in one? More fans don't watch the cartoons or read the books than do.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 00:50
|
|
|
Neo Rasa posted:"I wish the really brazen Nazi allegory faction in this series didn't have a scene in Force Awakens with a Nazi-esque salute, that way they'd be just different enough from Nazis that it wouldn't be awkward for me to openly root for them." I "rooted" for Vader in the OT, and this supposedly makes me a nazi according to bad forums poster Neo Rasa.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 01:00
|
|
|
Mr President posted:Thrawn was a high ranking Imperial in both old and new canon Imperial alien, Rebel alien, non-humanoid alien, humanoid alien. Rich alien, poor alien, Republic alien, Outer Rim alien. Still alien, still alien.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 01:02
|
|
|
My big gripe about Rey's powers is that her dialogue didn't clue us, the audience members, enough as to the mental leaps she was making on the way to mind controlling Daniel Craig. When she kept saying stuff to him beginning with "You're..." I was expecting her to start demonstrating her understanding of his inner psyche by repeating stuff she'd learned about Stormtroopers from Finn, but nothin doin.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 01:20
|
|
|
RedSpider posted:I "rooted" for Vader in the OT, and this supposedly makes me a nazi according to bad forums poster Neo Rasa. "Rooting" for Vader makes you similar to Kylo Ren, a Star Wurs fan that doesn't get Stat Wars.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 01:32
|
|
|
rey's skills don't really bug me so much as her just being kind of a nothing character to the point that the guy who was originally supposed to die 20 minutes in has more of a graspable personality than the film's main protagonist, she feels very bland in a series of films that otherwise is full of archetypal but interesting heroes
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 01:39
|
|
|
UmOk posted:"Rooting" for Vader makes you similar to Kylo Ren, a Star Wurs fan that doesn't get Stat Wars. No it doesn't. I explained how Kylo Ren is a pathetic and uninteresting villain compared to Vader. Adam Driver as Kylo Ren was almost as cringe-worthy and awkward as Hayden Christensen's performance as Anakin in the prequels.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 02:09
|
|
|
Enjoying a story's villain does not imply any particular belief or ideology except a willingness to interpret art qua entertainment. That said, disliking Kylo Ren doesn't make you unlike Kylo Ren.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 02:12
|
|
|
RedSpider posted:No it doesn't. I explained how Kylo Ren is a pathetic and uninteresting villain compared to Vader. Ironically, why I like him. He tries so hard to be Vader but he doesn't realize how much he's actually like Anakin.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 02:34
|
|
|
RedSpider posted:I "rooted" for Vader in the OT, and this supposedly makes me a nazi according to bad forums poster Neo Rasa. ESB goes really hard on the "Empire is cool" thing - too much, arguably, given how many fans have sympathized with them since - and ever since ROTJ (and even continued through the change in ownership) there's been a conscious move away from that. Evil is ugly (Palpatine), it's short-sighted (Maul), it's pathetic (the Trade Federation), it's self-destructive (Vader), it's comical (Grievous), it's full of tryhards (Ren) and lunatics (Hux) and grubby little status-seekers (Krennic). You're never going to get away from the cool uniforms and such, but there's been a decent effort to show the other sides of it. Even subverting it in many of those cases by having a cool looking character who's really kind of pathetic at the heart of it. No one's a Nazi for thinking the Empire looks cool. But it's worth examining the impact that decades of portrayals of a cool form of fascism might be having on real life politics. And it's a good thing to throw in a counterpoint every so often.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 02:46
|
|
|
Lord Hydronium posted:ESB goes really hard on the "Empire is cool" thing ESB doesn't show the Empire to be cool, it shows them to be a bunch of incompetents who die clownishly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gh7AcuxfxI (Note the captain to Vader's left in the first six seconds.) ESB does show Vader to be cool, but then again, Vader is responsible for the largest number of dead fascists in the film. And this is not just a consequence of his ruthlessness, he's actively attempting to supplant the Empire.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 03:05
|
|
|
Lord Hydronium posted:I think it's worth asking why people feel a need for fascist villains to be cool. The aesthetic element was a big part of what sold fascism in the first place, after all; you stick some racist idiots who believe white people came from Atlantis in Hugo Boss uniforms, and everyone starts thinking they must know what they're doing.  Darth Vader and the Empire are badass, and you're reading too much into this. These films are for children, after all; how about you let them like some cool stuff without being a self-righteous douche about it?
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 03:13
|
|
|
RedSpider posted:
what part of that post was 'reading too much'
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 03:16
|
|
|
General Dog posted:The Empire of the OT always seemed like a really banal strain of evil. We never met many zealots, most everybody was a 9-5 type who was just putting in hours- talking about cars, bitching about all the drills, and trying not to get choked to death by their boss. Also keep in mind: the Empire represents the futurism we're accustomed to. The Empire lives in the future that Walt Disney sold the public on in the 60s: it's bright and shiny and has blinking lights and button panels everywhere. There's some grunge just beneath the surface (and god only knows how a monster got into the Death Star waste system) but the McQuarrie artwork very much evokes the future corporate America was selling the public on a decade prior. Originally, Stormtroopers were even going to have lightsabers. The Rebels are smugglers and riff raff flying ships that just as often look like they should be belching smoke. Combined with the lack of greater scope information when the movies were released, it's easy to imagine that even if the Empire has it's social inequalities and is led by a death cultist, that life on Coruscant for most people would be a futuristic version of Athens and not a futuristic version of Nazi Germany. So yeah, it's kind of ironic that Disney owns Star Wars now, because the sort of post-war corporate heavy futurism that Uncle Walt pitched and a lot of people (self included) see as utopia was turned on it's head. EPCOT Center is not a Rebel base by any possible means. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 03:36 on Sep 18, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 03:33
|
|
|
Brother Entropy posted:what part of that post was 'reading too much'  Like I said, it's not wrong to think the Empire and Vader come off as badass, but it can be a problem if that's the only side we see (and to be clear, the idea of portraying fascists as cool, or at least more orderly and efficient than they were in the real world, is not a problem unique to Star Wars). And having problematic elements doesn't mean a work as a whole is bad or someone is bad for liking it; it just means we should keep in mind the broader implications of a work, and understand why they might be challenged.In this case, for the criticism "Kylo Ren isn't as cool as Vader", the obvious question is why should Ren (or Vader) be cool in the first place? Schwarzwald posted:ESB doesn't show the Empire to be cool, it shows them to be a bunch of incompetents who die clownishly.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 04:07
|
|
|
Star Wars created the Alt Right
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 04:21
|
|
|
I'll wait for the six seasons of a new animated TV show that does to Kylo Ren what TCW did for Anakin Let me have a series where we get to see Luke's Jedi Academy goddammit Even better: Remake Star Wars: Jedi Academy, but replace Jaden with Ben Solo and have the Dark Side ending be canon for once
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 04:35
|
|
|
Killing Rosh Penin would certainly give him a sympathetic reason to turn. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 04:39
|
|
|
Mr President posted:Star Wars created the Alt Right A Donald Trump Presidency was not possible without Darth Vader.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 04:49
|
|
Lord Hydronium posted:Even their mistakes, like all the trouble Han puts them through in the asteroid field, is more treated as a sign that Han is just that good than incompetence on the part of the Empire. Is this a serious point? Should the Empire have Keystone Copped their way through ESB? Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 06:23 on Sep 18, 2017 |
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 06:20
|
|
|
Don't [clap emoji] Make [clap emoji] Evil [clap emoji] Look [clap emoji] Cool is a very weird thing to say. Making evil look laughable and clownshoes incompetent and obviously Bad is pretty stupid from a socio-political argument view or whatever it is you're trying to say.
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 06:22
|
|
|
Yeah, the "cool" of the Empire doesn't come from the guys in brownshirts who are all mysteriously British. Like I said, it comes from the fact that people of a certain age, or people interested in a certain level of futurism, can identify with the Empire's stylistic hallmarks more than they can the Rebels. Because the Empire is The Jetsons if they were armed to the teeth. The simple clean metal lines evokes the 1964 World's Fair, the TWA Flight Center at JFK airport, the Disney Tomorrowland of 1967 onwards, the Future World at Epcot that was opened about six months before ROTJ came out. Death Star corridors sometimes look like they should have a line of tourists queued up for Space Mountain. And I should point out by Epcot's opening, the illusion was over. The cold war combined with America's financial difficulties and increased distrust of corporations made the optimistic, cheerful future of Disney an archaic thing; but persistred because the company was run at the time by guys from the Old Guard who weren't going to roll with the cultural changes. They clung onto that old happy optimism and they built that park anyway. And it was roundly criticized by people who saw it as a propaganda tool for Exxon, General Motors, etc. Very different from the 60s, where people flocked to the GE propaganda ride and the Monsanto propaganda-ride and didn't really think twice about it. I point this out not because I enjoy wanking about theme parks but I want to get this point across: to an American with an awareness of the 60s futurism and the disillusionment of the 70s that followed, the Empire is pretty obviously the 60s utopia that's been corrupted. Even without EU materials. Even without prequel movies. Something is inherently wrong. It's really easy to read the Empire as the future people previously wanted, that's clearly rotting. There's a line about the Senate being dissolved, which hints that some lasting vestige of a democracy was thrown away with just before the opening scene. Need I mention that this is not too many years after Richard Nixon tried to argue that whether or not something is legal depends on whether the President says it is. The Empire is the jet age post-war industrial dream of the 60s future, after the 70s cynicism toward power-hungry politicians, social inequity, and the general malaise of society has consumed it. It's not directly meant to resemble 1930s Fascism, but the late 20th century realization that American (western?) society is never going to stop hating each other, shooting at each other, and demonizing each other; so if a utopian society were handed to us we'd simply lead it into ruin. Which is why it's still relevant today. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Sep 18, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 06:27
|
|
|
Snooze Cruise posted:Hux is a really fun character. His relationship with Kylo is really interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk2vrRKel6k
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 06:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 22:10 |
|
|
Lord Hydronium posted:Killing Rosh Penin would certainly give him a sympathetic reason to turn. To this day, some bots are still capable of kicking my butt up and down the map To add insult to injury, he doesn't even have that much health... If you really hate yourself, you can give every stormtrooper a lightsaber, making that one level where you don't have yours into a living nightmare I actually haven't played Vanilla Outcast/Academy in years
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2017 11:06
|
|