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The bad guy is the Republic educated crusader and the good guy is the outcast (casteless?) wasteland scavenger he tries to radicalize.
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Sep 16, 2017 22:13
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Kylo's basically the same character as Anakin, though not as interesting since he's being influenced by the bad guys, while Anakin was being influenced by the Jedi.
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Sep 16, 2017 22:22
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Davros1 posted:Kylo's basically the same character as Anakin I think we don't know enough about Kylo's motivation yet to make such an assessment. Kylo is clearly not afraid of losing his loved ones because, you know, he shanks his dad. His turning to the dark side already seems way sadder than Anakin's too, because Anakin was surrounded by assholes who taught him horrible things, whereas Kylo was brought up by the heroes of the first trilogy.
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Sep 16, 2017 22:30
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RBA Starblade posted:Don't be ridiculous, his hair would have turned white and shot straight out of that happened. He was a low level janitor and made no mention prior that he knew of their plans You would think after realizing that he was on Han "the war heros" ship he would mention that the republic was about to get wiped out
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Sep 16, 2017 23:56
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UmOk posted:I'm pissed that Princess Leela didn't even mention Alderan after it was destroyed. Alderaan does get mentioned again. When she gets back to base she sees some rebel leaders (possibly relatives of organs?) and they hug and the guy is like "when we heard about alderaan we feared the worst" and Leia even says something to the affect that there is no time to mourn because they have a bigger problem with the Death Star coming. See back in those days they actually gave a drat about the narrative
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Sep 17, 2017 00:10
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Mr President posted:Alderaan does get mentioned again. When she gets back to base she sees some rebel leaders (possibly relatives of organs?) and they hug and the guy is like "when we heard about alderaan we feared the worst" and Leia even says something to the affect that there is no time to mourn because they have a bigger problem with the Death Star coming. And the movie ticket only cost a nickel. A nickel! So I tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time...
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Sep 17, 2017 00:21
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Mr President posted:Alderaan does get mentioned again. When she gets back to base she sees some rebel leaders (possibly relatives of organs?) and they hug and the guy is like "when we heard about alderaan we feared the worst" and Leia even says something to the affect that there is no time to mourn because they have a bigger problem with the Death Star coming. Not long ago, in a post not far far away. UmOk posted:
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Sep 17, 2017 00:32
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UmOk posted:You start by not being in awe of a known child killer and space Nazi, like Kylo. Yeah, I just said I think Kylo Ren is a pathetic and uninteresting villain. You can read, I guess?
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Sep 17, 2017 01:24
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https://twitter.com/Bootleg_Stuff/status/908911295176544258
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Sep 17, 2017 01:44
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feedmyleg posted:So they're rebooting Tales from Jabba's Palace? Nu EU is the exact same as old EU. Everyone from the bar scene in 7 will have their own stories soon enough.
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Sep 17, 2017 01:57
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Spacebump posted:Everyone from the bar scene in 7 will have their own stories soon enough. Which is cannon now, Wolfman or Dinosaur Smoking a Bong?
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Sep 17, 2017 02:00
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Mr President posted:He was a low level janitor and made no mention prior that he knew of their plans He was keeping his background a secret until shortly before the attack, and his goal was to put as much distance as possible between them and himself. It took a while for him to start caring much and it took the kidnapping of his friend to get him that far.
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Sep 17, 2017 02:03
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General Dog posted:Which is cannon now, Wolfman or Dinosaur Smoking a Bong? ^canon And whatever appears in the most recent cut of the film (so, for the OT, the Blu-Ray box set) is the canonical version.
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Sep 17, 2017 02:06
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jivjov posted:^canon Dammit you got me, I'm usually a pedant on this level but I'm drunkposting.
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Sep 17, 2017 02:08
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Davros1 posted:Kylo's basically the same character as Anakin, though not as interesting since he's being influenced by the bad guys, while Anakin was being influenced by the Jedi. There's a slight flaw in this contrast of yours. Ok, the Jedi aren't "the" bad guys, but they are bad.
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Sep 17, 2017 03:29
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RedSpider posted:One thing I don't like about the ST so far is how pathetic Kylo Ren is as a villain. He's nothing but a caricature of a pouting, millennial hipster (Adam Driver, are you loving serious?). With Vader, we were in awe of him; which made his final confrontation with Luke in ROTJ emotionally moving as well as his redemption. It looks like TLJ is going to be a spiritual clone of Empire just like TFA is of ANH, and I don't see how a weird looking kid like Adam Driver can pull this off. You're complaining about how different the villains in ANH and TFA are while also calling the latter a "spiritual clone" of the former. That seems a bit muddled to me. I liked Ren, but he's a very different character from Vader. The most interesting thing about Ren that isn't often noted is his instinctive empathy for Rey. This is, of course, explained as their common connection to The Force. But that only really tells us that there is a spiritual connection between the two. Ren instinctively admires Rey and wants her to admire him in turn. He interprets this as wanting to be her teacher, but she rejects that power dynamic and asserts her independence and equality with him, which is appropriate because he is still a journeyman Force-user at best. The political commentary is obvious and a little boring, but it sets up some interesting directions for their relationship in the next two films. What sort of relationship will Rey have with Luke, who she has come to to learn from? How will Luke handle a student who is inclined to reject the master/pupil dynamic? Or maybe Luke's failure with Ren was not addressing his need for an authoritarian relationship with his mentor.
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Sep 17, 2017 03:36
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I thought the indifference about the fate of the Republic in TFA made sense considering how alienated the characters are from the Republic. Even the characters who are from the Republic have basically abandoned it and get only token support from it. They oppose the First Order, but not from any loyalty to the Republic, which doesn't appear to deserve it. It was just the largest obstacle to the dominance of the First Order, which they don't want to be ruled by.
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Sep 17, 2017 03:41
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Every time Adam Driver talks in TFA I think I'm watching a parody of Star Wars
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Sep 17, 2017 04:41
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Brother Entropy posted:not explicitly but bringing up that rey had nothing near a modern first-world childhood underlines how half-thought the whole 'the bad guys are the bad fans and the good guys are the good fans' talk is The implicit assertion is that, because Rey is intended for a middle-class liberal audience, she therefore is that. 'Rey is intended for me, therefore she is me.' And because the characterization is so weak, there's not much to counter that unless you engage in the ideological critique of the film. (You can see the reverse at work when low-self-esteem white supremacists look at masochistic Templar crusader Kyle Solo and say 'that's me! They're making fun of the MRA incel community!') The truth is that TFA leans so hard on the identity of the characters (a strong female protagonist!), because the characters are actually hugely unrelatable. The bulk of the audience has no frame of reference to understand serfdom, and the film doesn't provide one. Beside the feudal serf, our protagonists are a US Soldier who defected over his complicity in warcrimes and a dude who traffics in endangered species for space-Saudi royalty. It's a far cry from the farm kid, or the directionless outcast.
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Sep 17, 2017 05:03
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RedSpider posted:One thing I don't like about the ST so far is how pathetic Kylo Ren is as a villain. I mean, the contrast between Ren and the "just like last time" cycle of Star Wars is intentional. Darth Vader is probably the greatest villain in cinema, a legend in the way Frankenstein's Monster or Dracula was in literature. How the HELL do you make anything that can compare with that? You can make a Han clone and a Luke clone and so on, that's easy. But good luck making a follow-up villain that recreates the audience's reaction to seeing and hearing Vader for the first time. So, the whole point is he's a failure. He's not as impressive. He's not as sinister. He's not as intimidating, beyond his ability to force stop a blaster bolt which was intriguing more than anything else. He's a whiny guy doing a Vegas Tribute Act version of Vader, nervously killing his relatives because a big ghost face man is telling him that Vader would have been the perfect evil overlord if only his wimpy emotions for his family hadn't gotten in his way (though we the audience know his emotions were the only thing keeping him going). KyloRen is the guy who watched the original movies and doesn't want to believe the prequels, sure. But the point is he'll never be the legend in-universe or in popular culture that his grandfather is, and his understanding of him is foggy at best, but good enough for him to nervously murder his family. That's why I want Luke (who knows the truth about Vader and lost his happy retirement life to Ben's Vader obsession) to give in to the dark side and end him to be the Ep IX villain. If they want, they can make that Snoke's True Plan, sure, whatever. Dark Side Luke breaks the cycle and is a hell of a lot more interesting character from the audience investment standpoint than a second (likely third, maybe fourth) round of Rey vs Ben. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 05:46 on Sep 17, 2017 |
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Sep 17, 2017 05:44
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Kylo Ren is by far the best thing to come out of TFA and, I imagine, will be one of the best parts of the next two films. Seeing what happens with him is really the only reason I want to see Ep 8.
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Sep 17, 2017 05:48
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Also, I'm less annoyed by Kylo Ren than I am by Hux taking the new Imperials into much more blatantly Nazi-like tone with the one scene. Part of the fun of Star Wars, like pro wrestling, is that there's some people that want to cheer for the bad guys. (And why not, since they live in sleek and cool Buck Rogers spaceships while the good guys fly rusted out buckets.) Hux's vaguely Hitler-like tendencies combined with Ren's total incompetence and on-screen bitching almost exactly mirrors Colonel Sanders and Dark Helmet of Spaceballs: The Movie. Which is what leads to that "it feels like a parody" vibe.
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Sep 17, 2017 05:55
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Craptacular! posted:That's why I want Luke (who knows the truth about Vader and lost his happy retirement life to Ben's Vader obsession) to give in to the dark side and end him to be the Ep IX villain. If they want, they can make that Snoke's True Plan, sure, whatever. Dark Side Luke breaks the cycle and is a hell of a lot more interesting character from the audience investment standpoint than a second (likely third, maybe fourth) round of Rey vs Ben. this is dumb as hell luke already tested himself against the dark side and he won and came through the ordeal as the platonic idea of a jedi.
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Sep 17, 2017 05:56
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Elfgames posted:this is dumb as hell luke already tested himself against the dark side and he won and came through the ordeal as the platonic idea of a jedi. Yeah, the ending of ROTJ involves Luke basically attaining enlightenment by rejecting the misguided preconceptions of his mentors and his enemies. The only challenge remaining for him is to pass his knowledge to the next generation. It looks like he has failed.
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Sep 17, 2017 05:59
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Elfgames posted:this is dumb as hell luke already tested himself against the dark side and he won and came through the ordeal as the platonic idea of a jedi. I suppose, I just hate the idea of his exile being all we knew in TFA. Luke went into Jabba's Palace with no lightsaber and won, don't make him a pussy who hides out on an island while his friends are getting killed. On the other hand, his living in exile because Snoke is instructing his dumbass nephew to kill his friends and family to draw Luke out of hiding and tempt him to the dark makes a little sense. Luke's situation is that he either has to take this kid out, or bring him to surrender, or else the kid is going to kill all the old crew and eventually come looking for him. And while they could just make him the old man mentor who trains a new generation to do the job for him, the dialogue about how it's time for the Jedi to end sounds, well, dark side as gently caress. At least as so far as "turning to the dark side" seems to never have no real rituals beyond willing to hurt and kill for your ideals. If Disney wants to expand Star Wars into stories beyond these same familiar characters, closing them out by having the hero decide the Jedi were a mistake and try to end it with him is an okay way to write the Skywalkers out of the picture and into a new generation of films where they don't overshadow everything.
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Sep 17, 2017 06:06
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Luke desiring to succeed with Rey where he failed with Ben would turn into an echo of Obi-Wan's desire to succeed with Luke where he failed with Anakin, which could be uncomfortable in a very satisfying way depending on what it rhymes with. Rey, a very promising pupil with anger issues emerging unexpectedly from some nowhere desert planet who ends up with a specific blue lightsaber, has plenty of reasons for Kylo Ren's antagonism with her to be very charged; in every way she effortlessly echoes his idol. Also, the age gap there is about the same as between Anakin and Obi-Wan. Both Bens, of course, intended at first for his own teacher to be the one to teach the urchin.
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Sep 17, 2017 06:09
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Mr President posted:He was a low level janitor and made no mention prior that he knew of their plans Phoneposting so digging up the quotes is a pain, but he knew. Why else do you think was he so eager to get away grom them as far and as fast as possible?
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Sep 17, 2017 07:14
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Craptacular! posted:Also, I'm less annoyed by Kylo Ren than I am by Hux taking the new Imperials into much more blatantly Nazi-like tone with the one scene. Part of the fun of Star Wars, like pro wrestling, is that there's some people that want to cheer for the bad guys. (And why not, since they live in sleek and cool Buck Rogers spaceships while the good guys fly rusted out buckets.) Holy gently caress, I forgot about that part. Good god Disney, we always knew the Empire was a nazi allegory; you didn't have to literally spell it out for us. Have some faith in your audience for once. It was so cringe-worthy. 
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Sep 17, 2017 07:25
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Craptacular! posted:I suppose, I just hate the idea of his exile being all we knew in TFA. Luke went into Jabba's Palace with no lightsaber and won, don't make him a pussy who hides out on an island while his friends are getting killed. On the other hand, his living in exile because Snoke is instructing his dumbass nephew to kill his friends and family to draw Luke out of hiding and tempt him to the dark makes a little sense. I assumed that Luke went into hiding because he didn't want to kill his nephew, the closest thing he has to a son.
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Sep 17, 2017 10:15
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RedSpider posted:Holy gently caress, I forgot about that part. Good god Disney, we always knew the Empire was a nazi allegory; you didn't have to literally spell it out for us. Have some faith in your audience for once. they did a "Marvel's Captain America: Hydra Salute" as well
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Sep 17, 2017 10:42
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Hodgepodge posted:I assumed that Luke went into hiding because he didn't want to kill his nephew, the closest thing he has to a son. Whereas Chewie's just "Nope. Fuckin' die."
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Sep 17, 2017 10:50
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I think Luke went to Ach-To to find some power converters.
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Sep 17, 2017 10:52
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Captain Splendid posted:Whereas Chewie's just "Nope. Fuckin' die." This is the most satisfying part of TFA to me. Chewie just deciding it's murder time and he's running late.
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Sep 17, 2017 11:12
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"I wish the really brazen Nazi allegory faction in this series didn't have a scene in Force Awakens with a Nazi-esque salute, that way they'd be just different enough from Nazis that it wouldn't be awkward for me to openly root for them."
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Sep 17, 2017 16:50
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Neo Rasa posted:"I wish the really brazen Nazi allegory faction in this series didn't have a scene in Force Awakens with a Nazi-esque salute, that way they'd be just different enough from Nazis that it wouldn't be awkward for me to openly root for them." I think the criticism is that they are a Nazi allegory faction in the first place. You know, because Nazism is so yesterday.
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Sep 17, 2017 16:53
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"Why are the baddes overtly Nazis?" "Why is the female lead good at everything?" "Where are the white dudes?" - Three common questions of a Star War film.
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Sep 17, 2017 18:01
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Neo Rasa posted:"I wish the really brazen Nazi allegory faction in this series didn't have a scene in Force Awakens with a Nazi-esque salute, that way they'd be just different enough from Nazis that it wouldn't be awkward for me to openly root for them." The First Order aren't Nazis; they are Starship Troopers. Abrams opens the film with a Klendathu Drop reference. The Starship Troopers are part of a liberal federation, as in Star Trek. The film is largely a satire of the first Gulf War and, in its message that "war makes fascists of us all", the 'us' refers to western liberal democracies. But TFA's storytelling is muddled by such things as Hux goosestepping around doing a gauche Hitler impression while blowing up Space Washington DC - dumb, crazy behaviour that you could not really get away with in a liberal democracy. In real life, Hux would try to delete his offensive Space Tweets, but then get fired anyways.
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Sep 17, 2017 18:31
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The Empire of the OT always seemed like a really banal strain of evil. We never met many zealots, most everybody was a 9-5 type who was just putting in hours- talking about cars, bitching about all the drills, and trying not to get choked to death by their boss.
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Sep 17, 2017 19:32
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The funny thing about the First Order is that none of them seem totally sold that they're doing the right thing- Hux talks with a lot of bluster and inflammatory rhetoric, but his voice nearly cracks when he shouts; he sheds a tear and is generally shaken when Starkiller Base fires. He comes across a big bundle of nerves; he's in over his head and he knows it. Kylo Ren is nominally a Believer, but he wears his uncertainty on his sleeve. He believes in the Dark Side, but he's not sure he has the faith to go the distance. ("If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple."- Luke 14:26)
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Sep 17, 2017 19:41
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well why not posted:"Why are the baddes overtly Nazis?" this is bait
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Sep 17, 2017 19:49
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