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Lightning Lord posted:So does Israel never expect encouraging Arab fascism to backfire on them, or...? Not in a way that would compromise the positions or security of the people who forward and sign off on that poo poo
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Sep 18, 2017 09:09
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al-saqr i want to offer you the hand of friendship and say i'm sorry for what the jews have done
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Sep 18, 2017 10:26
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let me know if you ever have to flee saudi arabia, you can come to australia and stay at our house, and by then i'll probably have a farm you can live at until things blow over (co-owned by the ghost of ariel sharon, whom as my primary advisor deserves a portion of my wealth)
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Sep 18, 2017 10:28
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Not only is Israel evil, in fact it's the source of all evil, like it's populated by lizardmen who emit a corrupting radiation that poisons the very soil of the once peaceful levant. And I mean that in a totally non-antisemitic way, after all I wrote 'Israelis' and not 'Jews'. Al-Saqr posted:No, except a 100% literal rambling restatement of the post above. 
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Sep 18, 2017 12:52
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I don't get it. What's alsaqrs deal
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Sep 18, 2017 13:08
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shrike82 posted:I don't get it. What's alsaqrs deal Run-on sentences, for one
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Sep 18, 2017 13:27
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shrike82 posted:I don't get it. What's alsaqrs deal
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Sep 18, 2017 13:33
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qkkl posted:The only perfect form of government is one where every decision has support from 100% of the population. Majority rule can lead to atrocities and oppression just like other forms of government. What are you, eight?
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Sep 18, 2017 13:41
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shrike82 posted:I don't get it. What's alsaqrs deal Racism against Neandertals. Just because they're no longer there to defend their honor, what with being extinct and all, doesn't mean you can smear them with the crimes of modern men.
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Sep 18, 2017 14:06
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qkkl posted:The only perfect form of government is one where every decision has support from 100% of the population. Majority rule can lead to atrocities and oppression just like other forms of government. Maybe instead of just focusing on the endgoal of a 'perfect government' we can just instead work on making fascist apartheid states less terrible and follow the road from there.
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Sep 18, 2017 14:30
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Note it's an implication of that argument that not letting fascists get their way is inherently oppressive.
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Sep 18, 2017 14:37
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Disinterested posted:Note it's an implication of that argument that not letting fascists get their way is inherently oppressive. Well you see the Palestinians are perfectly free to form their own state, govern themselves, create a life and community for themselves. And Israel is equally free to stop them. Freedom.
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Sep 18, 2017 14:55
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Unless I'm mistaken, the Israeli electoral system already is pretty close to what I would consider an ideal system for a liberal democracy--a unicameral parliament whose members are selected from party lists based on proportional representation electoral results with no districts and a low party threshold. I suppose if you want an example of how one can have political problems that government or electoral reform cannot solve, Israel would be an example. But that's not usually germane to discussion of Israeli policy anyway.
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Sep 19, 2017 06:55
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eSports Chaebol posted:Unless I'm mistaken, the Israeli electoral system already is pretty close to what I would consider an ideal system for a liberal democracy--a unicameral parliament whose members are selected from party lists based on proportional representation electoral results with no districts and a low party threshold. I suppose if you want an example of how one can have political problems that government or electoral reform cannot solve, Israel would be an example. But that's not usually germane to discussion of Israeli policy anyway. How much of a role does American $$$ to the rightwing Israeli parties play?
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Sep 19, 2017 07:26
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eSports Chaebol posted:Unless I'm mistaken, the Israeli electoral system already is pretty close to what I would consider an ideal system for a liberal democracy--a unicameral parliament whose members are selected from party lists based on proportional representation electoral results with no districts and a low party threshold. I suppose if you want an example of how one can have political problems that government or electoral reform cannot solve, Israel would be an example. But that's not usually germane to discussion of Israeli policy anyway. Israel posits the following challenge to democracy: "What if the majority of your population are just terrible people?"
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Sep 19, 2017 08:35
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Orange Devil posted:Israel posits the following challenge to democracy: "What if the majority of your population are just terrible people?" The age old question democracy has been unable to answer.
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Sep 19, 2017 09:16
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Cat Mattress posted:Racism against Neandertals. Just because they're no longer there to defend their honor, what with being extinct and all, doesn't mean you can smear them with the crimes of modern men. Advancing from early hunter-gatherer groups was clearly a huge mistake.
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Sep 19, 2017 09:31
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Volkerball posted:The age old question democracy has been unable to answer. Actually it was answered even before the first democracy was officially implemented. The "solution" was to only allow "non-terrible" people to participate.
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Sep 19, 2017 09:35
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qkkl posted:Actually it was answered even before the first democracy was officially implemented. The "solution" was to only allow "non-terrible" people to participate. Is your sole role to play the fool?
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Sep 19, 2017 10:37
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i am the only fool here
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Sep 19, 2017 12:24
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A democracy in which regardless of other ballot results, Avs vote is the decider.
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Sep 19, 2017 13:23
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there can be only one prime minister of my heart
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Sep 19, 2017 13:40
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harold holt
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Sep 19, 2017 13:42
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eSports Chaebol posted:Unless I'm mistaken, the Israeli electoral system already is pretty close to what I would consider an ideal system for a liberal democracy--a unicameral parliament whose members are selected from party lists based on proportional representation electoral results with no districts and a low party threshold. I suppose if you want an example of how one can have political problems that government or electoral reform cannot solve, Israel would be an example. But that's not usually germane to discussion of Israeli policy anyway. Except party lists and no geographic ties is a horrible basis for an electoral system. qkkl posted:Actually it was answered even before the first democracy was officially implemented. The "solution" was to only allow "non-terrible" people to participate. You certainly make a good argument for disenfranchisement. Disinterested fucked around with this message at 13:45 on Sep 19, 2017 |
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Sep 19, 2017 13:43
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Disinterested posted:Except party lists and no geographic ties is a horrible basis for an electoral system. I'm undecided about party lists, but I vehemently disagree on the geographic ties bit.
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Sep 19, 2017 18:55
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Orange Devil posted:I'm undecided about party lists, but I vehemently disagree on the geographic ties bit. All you're doing in both cases is removing choice from voters and proclaiming it as democratic. The actual result is less individual accountability in politics and the never ending protection of unpopular politicians. Multi member constituencies, fine. Top up members, ok.
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Sep 19, 2017 19:21
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Beebs is speaking at the UNGA now.
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Sep 19, 2017 20:00
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https://twitter.com/glcarlstrom/status/910221040298725376 lol thanks Netanyahu, arab democrats will remember that once your friends are overthrown, just like people remember this little gem:- https://twitter.com/tomazy_/status/909521298187018241
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Sep 19, 2017 20:42
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Al-Saqr posted:https://twitter.com/glcarlstrom/status/910221040298725376 Which ended up being WORSE for Israel in the long run. Taking out Iran's main rival, who could have seen the consequences? For someone with supposedly high IQ, this had to be the stupidest prediction ever.
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Sep 19, 2017 20:46
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VideoGameVet posted:Which ended up being WORSE for Israel in the long run. Taking out Iran's main rival, who could have seen the consequences? No it ended up being pretty fine for them. The arab wolds back has been completely shattered into sectarian nightmare that will probably take forever to overcome, meaning that the middle east has essentially been taken back at least 100 years into pre-modern concepts of sect and tribe, the arab regimes refuse to get the hint that they have to reform their countries or else they'll all collapse and have double downed on repression and incompetence, and now all of the regimes are rushing to Israels side to protect themselves from being overthrown and to protect themselves from Iran because they're too incompetent and stupid to handle themselves. If my goal was to forever break apart the Arab world, ensure that fascists stay in power to prevent the Arab world from advancing themselves or aiding the Palestinians in any way, and tie themselves and re-frame themselves as allies in a sectarian forever war against Iran and Arab civil society, I would say they succeeded. It's going to take arab democrats an enormous amount of time and lots of dying before they can get to fixing their countries and aiding the Palestinians. Iran is only interested in it's own hegemony in the region, I think their support for the palestians is largely a tool towards that, if they were genuinely interested in arab or palestinian welfare they wouldnt have doubled down on an incompetent child gassing maniac like Assad, who's absolutely useless when it comes to running his own country and killing his citizens. dont think they'll ever be anything more than just another exporter of death and repression like in Syria and Iraq. They'll be busy for the foreseeable future. Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Sep 19, 2017 |
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Sep 19, 2017 21:14
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Disinterested posted:All you're doing in both cases is removing choice from voters and proclaiming it as democratic. The actual result is less individual accountability in politics and the never ending protection of unpopular politicians. How are you removing choice by not having geographic ties? I'd argue the exact opposite is true.
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Sep 19, 2017 21:25
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Al-Saqr posted:No it ended up being pretty fine for them. The arab wolds back has been completely shattered into sectarian nightmare that will probably take forever to overcome, meaning that the middle east has essentially been taken back at least 100 years into pre-modern concepts of sect and tribe, the arab regimes refuse to get the hint that they have to reform their countries or else they'll all collapse and have double downed on repression and incompetence, and now all of the regimes are rushing to Israels side to protect themselves from being overthrown and to protect themselves from Iran because they're too incompetent and stupid to handle themselves. It really hasn't helped Israel. Now Iran can preety much do what it wants in Syria, openly, meanwhile Hizbellah is emboldened. At the same time Israel allowing AQ to get treatment in it has pissed off its usually docile Druze. Also if Trump decides to just scrap the nuclear deal Iran will build it's nukes and Israel will be left with nothing to do. Beyond being shackled to the decrepit SA.
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Sep 19, 2017 21:36
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Hezbollah aren't so much emboldened as fighting some of Israel's other enemies in a theatre in which Israel can bomb them more freely.
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Sep 19, 2017 22:37
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Disinterested posted:Hezbollah aren't so much emboldened as fighting some of Israel's other enemies in a theatre in which Israel can bomb them more freely. yeah exactly, helping someone gas kids and put down a civilian armed revolt to secure the rule of a fascist not only lost Hezbollah countless officers and some of its best generals, it basically drew a line in the sand between them and Arab society in general, nobody's ever going to forgive them for what they've done to the syrians. Also, helping someone push political prisoners into aushwitz style ovens is hardly good training against a modern first world army like the IDF.
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Sep 19, 2017 22:49
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Orange Devil posted:Israel posits the following challenge to democracy: "What if the majority of your population are just terrible people?" The counterpoint to this for those who propose One State of course would be that the majority are currently disenfranchised.
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Sep 20, 2017 06:37
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eSports Chaebol posted:The counterpoint to this for those who propose One State of course would be that the majority are currently disenfranchised. There are more Israeli citizens than there are non-citizens in Israel + Occupied Territories.
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Sep 20, 2017 12:46
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Absurd Alhazred posted:There are more Israeli citizens than there are non-citizens in Israel + Occupied Territories. But if you count the 5 million plus Palestinian refugees who are forbidden from returning to Israel and (in most cases) the OT because of their race/religion, people who would have citizenship if it weren't for ethnic cleansing, that's no longer true.
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Sep 20, 2017 15:41
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Absurd Alhazred posted:There are more Israeli citizens than there are non-citizens in Israel + Occupied Territories. Using 2017 numbers for the ethnic makeup of Israel and Palestine, my math puts the Arab population under Israeli control as ~250,000 higher than the Jewish population. This gap may be larger in a one state solution as I am not including an additional ~6,700,000 Palestinians living outside such borders. My numbers for the ethnic makeup currently under Israeli control, and in such a one state solution: Arab: ~6,750,000 (~5,000,000 Palestinian Arabs do not have Israeli citizenship) Jewish: ~6,500,000 (600,000-890,000 Israeli citizens living in Palestinian territory) Other: ~400,000 treasured8elief fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Sep 20, 2017 |
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Sep 20, 2017 21:39
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FreshlyShaven posted:But if you count the 5 million plus Palestinian refugees who are forbidden from returning to Israel and (in most cases) the OT because of their race/religion, people who would have citizenship if it weren't for ethnic cleansing, that's no longer true. If you also count all the Jews that could become citizens but haven't, then they outnumber Palestinians by a wide margin.  tentative8e8op posted:I believe they were referring both to the ethnic majority being disenfranchised rather than the divide in current citizenship status, and Israel explicitly supporting one ethnic group to the detriment of its other citizens. I wouldn't call people who vote representatives into all levels of legislature and executive (yes, even including the occasional minister) disenfranchised. That they're discriminated against is without question, but it helps to be specific.
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Sep 21, 2017 01:21
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I wouldn't call people who vote representatives into all levels of legislature and executive (yes, even including the occasional minister) disenfranchised. That they're discriminated against is without question, but it helps to be specific. Five million of those people are very effectively disenfranchised right now.
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Sep 21, 2017 01:51
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