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Has anyone here successfully FI-ed or retired early? I'm at a point where I can seriously consider it: I now have roughly ~$1.5MM in investment and retirement accounts. With an estimated $40k/yr expenditure rate and a 4% withdrawal rate, firecalc puts me in a relatively risk-free zone for retiring early. The big unknowns to me the costs of healthcare and the potential stigma of taking a couple of years off, if I were ever interested in going back to my current career. The other risk is that my partner and I might one day want kids (although we definitely haven't so far), which is a huge question mark in terms of expenditures. Has anyone here done it? Also, what do you end up doing with your time? I'm feeling burnt out enough that the first few months might just be videogames and copious amounts of legal weed.
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Sep 14, 2017 01:13
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I would do video games and copious amounts of weed
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Sep 14, 2017 17:04
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I'm assuming the people who hit FI don't hang out here any more. They don't need the moral support. I can say not to worry too much about the stigma. There are ways to mitigate it. And remember that you don't have to go back into earning your full salary to put more money in the bank. You might want to talk about a leave of absence or a sabbatical with your employer to give it a trial run.
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Sep 14, 2017 17:19
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I've done it, and am now un-doing it. I was unmarried, and un-kidded, and decided to travel with my then-girlfriend. I tried and failed to be gainfully self-employed (maybe because of a lack of financial pressure), but it wasn't hard to pass the time. The things I did in my free time before swelled to fill the free time I now had: going out, reading, writing, cooking, exercise, open source coding, etc. Yes, some videogames, but I wasn't in countries where I felt safe getting drugs besides alcohol. It was fun, but in february my dissatisfaction crystallized, and now I'm back in the US to work a 9-5 and do political organizing. I do still need moral and social support, and whatever else it is that gets people to compulsively read these forums. I think that in retirement, your job becomes finding out what you actually want to do, and the answers might surprise you.
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Sep 14, 2017 17:49
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Being forced to face your own true self is a terrifying revelation for most. Being reliant on society forces us to wear many masks, and we hide ourselves for a while.
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Sep 14, 2017 18:24
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I'm not sure I want to retire early anymore. I am still pursuing FI, but I'm starting to think that the hardships of the daily grind are a worthwhile pain to spice up the rest of my life via the contrast. I think I just want to work less, eventually. This may be easy for me to say though, since my job is fairly cushy. I manage to squeeze in a 90 minute gym session during the day at work, every second day. I don't take many breaks other than that. My continuing pursuit of FI is basically a hedge against the idea that my job could disappear.
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Sep 14, 2017 18:39
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Rick Rickshaw posted:I'm not sure I want to retire early anymore. I am still pursuing FI, but I'm starting to think that the hardships of the daily grind are a worthwhile pain to spice up the rest of my life via the contrast.
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Sep 14, 2017 18:54
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radialright posted:Has anyone here done it? Also, what do you end up doing with your time? I'm feeling burnt out enough that the first few months might just be videogames and copious amounts of legal weed. For the first six months, to pinch myself and make sure I wasn't dreaming this insanely privileged life of food and housing without work, I'd smoke a ton of weed and stay up till 5am to get fresh hot donuts. Cream filled when the donut's hot and the filling's ice cold... glazed chocolates fresh out the fryer with the icing just-set... croissant egg cheese and ham breakfast sandwiches... Best 10 pounds I ever gained.
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Sep 14, 2017 21:35
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radialright posted:Has anyone here successfully FI-ed or retired early? I'm at a point where I can seriously consider it: I now have roughly ~$1.5MM in investment and retirement accounts. With an estimated $40k/yr expenditure rate and a 4% withdrawal rate, firecalc puts me in a relatively risk-free zone for retiring early. Kind of. I got to 40% stash and stopped because my one-day-a-week business covers life + some savings. Also I'm pretty sure I would keep doing the business anyway post 100% stash. Anyway, I completely 'wasted' a year to, basically, videogames and hermitism. I didn't have any weed but if I did I would have smoked it. Maybe your sabbatical won't be as long, but you will definitely spend a time revelling in the freedom that you haven't had since you were a teenager, and you will regress. We have also had a child in that time and to be honest babies are only expensive if you or your partner choose to make them expensive - everything can be done on a budget and with hand-me-downs. Families will be coming out of the woodwork to hand over all their baby crap from the cupboards/garage. I think kids gets more expensive with schooling and mobile phones and vehicles (I'm Australian, so 'saving for college' is a foreign language to me) but even then the cost is up to you, really. I am very cautious about having a second one but that's only partly because of the cost. It's mainly because they need so much time and energy from you that the idea of two babies is just despair inducing. For what it's worth I have also since found a strong new direction in life that I'm pursuing, in terms of tertiary education and potential career, and re-educating as an adult with free time is awesome. I've never studied so hard in my life. And yes, much like Mofabio, I gained 10 kilos. Purely muscle, I assure you. quote:I think that in retirement, your job becomes finding out what you actually want to do, and the answers might surprise you. I would totally agree with this.
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Sep 14, 2017 22:50
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Seriously, for myself, I already have my "dream job". I would keep doing what I'm doing except that I would get more enjoyment out of it. My previous company one of my coworkers was one of the heirs to the Coca-Cola family fortune. His trust fund stipulated that he had to hold a full time job, so he chose to become a pilot. He was the most senior first officer in the company, never took the promotion to captain, so he could pick and choose his schedule as the #1 FO, only working 10 days a month and then flying to Key West for 18 hour layovers. The rest of his time he spent keeping bees and shooting high power rifles in his lands in Georgia. That's what I want. I'd easily live off of a $40k stipend on my own property. Raising bees, playing video games, smoking weed, and eating donuts that are hot outside but with cold fillings Animal fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Sep 14, 2017 |
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Sep 14, 2017 22:52
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Folly posted:You might want to talk about a leave of absence or a sabbatical with your employer to give it a trial run. Rick Rickshaw posted:I'm not sure I want to retire early anymore. I am still pursuing FI, but I'm starting to think that the hardships of the daily grind are a worthwhile pain to spice up the rest of my life via the contrast. Doc Hawkins posted:I've done it, and am now un-doing it. The whole MMM/FI thing all happened at the start of this decade, one of the most precarious times to be an American worker. It's hard to ignore the timing. The cultural headwind was a lot of people, out of necessity, were learning to do more with less, spend less, DIY, bike, re-learn what you truly value and discard the rest. MMM put these currents together into a lifestyle that said, you don't need to feel ashamed about being cheap, it's a virtue, and if you keep with it, you won't need to ever feel economically insecure again. The US economy (for now!) is doing fine, we aren't surrounded by precarity anymore. All the people I know who were unemployed in '09, '10 have jobs. The US labor aristocracy doesn't have the same ambition to become petty-bourgeois. The currents that made the FI river flow are dry now, and that's probably part of the reason why enthusiasm has waned. The lifestyle will pick up again a year or so into the next recession. edit: to be totally clear, that isn't a criticism of quoted posters or saying that by abandoning FI they're just going with the current. times change and life situations change, not adapting would be silly. Mofabio fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Sep 15, 2017 |
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Sep 15, 2017 00:39
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Animal posted:Seriously, for myself, I already have my "dream job". I would keep doing what I'm doing except that I would get more enjoyment out of it. My previous company one of my coworkers was one of the heirs to the Coca-Cola family fortune. His trust fund stipulated that he had to hold a full time job, so he chose to become a pilot. He was the most senior first officer in the company, never took the promotion to captain, so he could pick and choose his schedule as the #1 FO, only working 10 days a month and then flying to Key West for 18 hour layovers. The rest of his time he spent keeping bees and shooting high power rifles in his lands in Georgia. One of my sisters raises bees, cattle, has a couple of horses and a forest. I think she's got the easy life going on but they do pour a lot of money into that lifestyle. When I had a look at 4HWW, MMM and various others I noticed a trend towards earning more money. One youtuber that pushes online business said in one video that he makes the best money consulting with a high hourly rate. I'd already done that part so it wasn't very relevant to me, and I like the work that I do. What made more of a difference was cutting down on wasteful spending, getting more credit card rewards and various other optimisations to benefit me via my expenses. Then pouring more money into paying the mortgage and investing. I'm not FI but I'm heading there a lot faster. I don't need the RE although I might revisit that in 10-12 years. I might as well contribute something useful and get the tax write offs for the home office and travel (but not write off everything by turning my house into a porn set like Onision).
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Sep 15, 2017 01:50
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Mofabio posted:The whole MMM/FI thing all happened at the start of this decade, one of the most precarious times to be an American worker. It's hard to ignore the timing. The cultural headwind was a lot of people, out of necessity, were learning to do more with less, spend less, DIY, bike, re-learn what you truly value and discard the rest. MMM put these currents together into a lifestyle that said, you don't need to feel ashamed about being cheap, it's a virtue, and if you keep with it, you won't need to ever feel economically insecure again. While your exact theory does not apply to me at all (Canadian, have very stable employment), I think I could write a book on my journey recovering from what I call the "MMM Hangover". I actually think a fairly sizable portion of the people who have embraced the MMM philosophy are worse off for it, at least until they recover from the hangover effect. That being said, I don't regret the road I went down one bit. The analogy I have in my head is that MMM sends you on a journey away from society's norms. I feel like MMM shot me out to Pluto, and I have only recently finally come back to settle just outside the asteroid belt. The question that I don't have an answer to is whether I had to take that trip out to Pluto first before I could settle into my groove where I find myself now. Not only that, but is the result of the journey (a big fat investment portfolio and net worth) the reason for my new found perspective on life? To quickly summarize - I think the most dangerous element of entering the FI domain is that you start to see your job as the main source of unhappiness in your life, and escaping from it is the cure. For some people, that may be the case. But for others, it can lead to some dark places, and they would be better off trying to embrace work, if at all possible. Rick Rickshaw fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Sep 15, 2017 |
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Sep 15, 2017 02:22
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Both the 4HWW and MMM have that conflict with work. Tim Ferris works a lot and not the advertised 4 hours. Locally I heard about one mechanic who read the book started his own business and had several employees. After going on that journey he just realised that he didn't want to run a business and went back to being a mechanic. It's not the right journey for everyone. In fact the approach is a very thin wedge of the big picture. Selling stuff on the internet and having a large number of cheap foreign employees isn't for everyone. I believe that goal setting is more important. FI and RE are just goals. Everyone here knows of the benefits of not being financially retarded but asking yourself what you want to do with your life, or envisioning what you would do if you stopped working is a useful exercise. Even if you've gone down a path that was a bad choice at least you'll never regret not trying. On the expenses side it's also too easy to take frugality to extremes, and I think that's something that MMM has tried too hard to justify. He seemed a little too preoccupied with how happy his former co-workers were about not being FIRE.
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Sep 15, 2017 02:51
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Devian666 posted:Both the 4HWW and MMM have that conflict with work. Tim Ferris works a lot and not the advertised 4 hours. I think in MMM's case, it's so easy for a person to take in the wrong message. i.e. "Here's how to escape from work - once you do life will automatically be amazing!" "Early retirement" works well for MMM because he is an incredible self-starter. Not everyone is. I too dream of quitting my job and starting up businesses, but I'm not sure I have what it takes. That being said, I concede that there are surely members of the FI community who truly will be better off when they achieve FI, quit work, and live a life of leisure. That is possible for some people, but it is incredibly rare for people to be able to do that and not spiral into meaninglessness - ironically, it seems like the demographic of folks who are capable of achieving FI are also the least likely to be able to thrive in a life of leisure.
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Sep 15, 2017 03:05
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Wouldn't everyone be happier if they worked from ages 20-30 and saved up 10 years worth of expenses, stopped working from ages 30-40, worked again from ages 40-50 and saved up 10 years worth of expenses, then retired early at age 50? My view is that it's better to exhaust the money now instead of hoarding it for an age 60-90 twilight that you might not even see (and even if you do you'll be old and have health problems) You could even do it 5 years on, 5 years off
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Sep 15, 2017 03:32
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Devian666 posted:On the expenses side it's also too easy to take frugality to extremes, and I think that's something that MMM has tried too hard to justify. He seemed a little too preoccupied with how happy his former co-workers were about not being FIRE. MMM is a sustainable living blog masquerading as a FIRE blog. His main mission is convincing people to be less wasteful and more environmentally sustainable. The ability to be financially independent and retire early is just a very good way to sell that. EugeneJ posted:Wouldn't everyone be happier if they worked from ages 20-30 and saved up 10 years worth of expenses, stopped working from ages 30-40, worked again from ages 40-50 and saved up 10 years worth of expenses, then retired early at age 50? I would agree, but getting an equivalent job after 5-10 years out of the work force is difficult. For a lot of high skill jobs that's probably sort of reasonable cause your knowledge is going to be a decade out of date.
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Sep 15, 2017 03:41
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Barring any other changes, the most likely outcome if i stopped working is a life of meaninglessness and despair, ie, the same thing I have now but without the commute. At least that way I'd get to steer a little. For me, finding genuine purpose in life is a big hard question and I don't know the answer, but I know it's not "write computer programs for forty years". Figuring out what I want is a parallel thread, to be explored independently of financial Independence, but in the meantime, the keys to the handcuffs look awfully appealing.
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Sep 15, 2017 03:43
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Basic question that's most definitely answered but it's not in the OP so  : Should I focus on maxing out my 401k if I intend to retire early? I'll definitely have to pay the early withdrawal penalty, right? So what would be the point? Shouldn't I just put all my savings into an index fund instead?
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Sep 15, 2017 04:35
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UnfurledSails posted:Basic question that's most definitely answered but it's not in the OP so If you've saved enough for early retirement, you will almost certainly have enough non-sheltered assets to work through before you make it to 60.
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Sep 15, 2017 04:42
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:but in the meantime, the keys to the handcuffs look awfully appealing. I'm totally not at FI. But I am at FU. And having FU money makes everything better. Baby steps. I also do not know what I would do with the RE part.....it's not really my thing. I really, really like what I do except for when I don't. And I no longer tolerate those parts. New thing for me is being in a company this big (startup gone public.....always been in small companies or startups if I wasn't consulting), but it seems like not tolerating the bullshit just keeps getting me promoted and given more golden handcuffs (i.e multiple RSU grants vesting over 4 years). Even when I get to FI.......I'm not sure I would change anything at this time. I know a bunch of people that were in before me that are absolutely FI based on their strike price of the initial option grant and they are also still at work.
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Sep 15, 2017 06:06
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I started FI because of standard job hate. Realised I needed to earn more money and applied myself way more to my career, "it's only for X years" ended up climbing the ladder to a new point where I really enjoy what I do. Also found a wife and given the enjoyment of work we made a decision to buy a new house which is a setback in terms of true FI and we have planned to let her retire first as she is still stuck in job hate. Goals change. As the years rolled by and FI became more realistic a possibility and not just a pipe dream I really started honestly thinking about what I would do and who I am and I think I'm the sort that will always want some obligation in life just not 60-80 hours worth. Otherwise the video games hiatus will last decades. At some point I think I want to get involved in local politics but for now the next step is probably going to be working 20ish hours a week and gardening a lot. Actually the next step is pay down this huge mortgage but the one after that. TLDR: fi isn't a binary switch it's just independence to be able to do what you want
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Sep 15, 2017 07:04
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UnfurledSails posted:Basic question that's most definitely answered but it's not in the OP so
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Sep 15, 2017 12:16
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UnfurledSails posted:Basic question that's most definitely answered but it's not in the OP so
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Sep 15, 2017 12:19
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I just started my dream job but I've also started pursuing FI although I would never RE. If I ever do FI, the most I would do is to try to reduce some of my workload for a salary cut. Probably the more accurate reason why I'm pursuing FI is that it's more of an artifact of the fact that I'm pretty content right now at a low expense level. Spending more money at this time wouldn't make me much happier. I have no kids and I rent a cheap apartment, so I can afford to save a lot without feeling constricted. Life and goals can change, but the amount of savings I'm building up right now would definitely make raising my expense level easier in the future. In one or two more years of saving, I'll have enough saved so that I'll be FI when I'm 65 – even without SS – without any additional contributions (5% real growth rate). That would free me from the need to save for normal retirement, which would be its own sort of FI-lite.
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Sep 15, 2017 12:56
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Cicero posted:You can pull money out early from a 401k using a roth conversion ladder or SEPP (aka Rule 72t), so in practice yes max out your 401k. Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Sep 15, 2017 |
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Sep 15, 2017 16:39
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You're absolutely right but if you're securing a future through something like that you've probably entered "Good Problem To Have" territory.
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Sep 15, 2017 16:53
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Hoodwinker posted:You're absolutely right but if you're securing a future through something like that you've probably entered "Good Problem To Have" territory.
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Sep 15, 2017 16:58
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EugeneJ posted:Wouldn't everyone be happier if they worked from ages 20-30 and saved up 10 years worth of expenses, stopped working from ages 30-40, worked again from ages 40-50 and saved up 10 years worth of expenses, then retired early at age 50? Honestly, I agree with whoever said that leisure isn't the ideal state for a FIRE-minded person. If you have enough ambition to work and save to get to FI, you probably will end up making money somehow, even just with your hobbies, or cutting your expenses because you have the time and resources to do so. As an example: I'm making a bunch of applesauce today with free apples from our neighbors' tree since I helped them make their sauce yesterday. And I took a free basket weaving class which is going to probably end up being a bunch of Christmas presents for family, since it's a super fun hobby I want to get better at. Semi-retiring is pretty loving sweet.
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Sep 18, 2017 20:29
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And it's all thanks to porn! 
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Sep 18, 2017 21:05
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moana posted:Honestly, I agree with whoever said that leisure isn't the ideal state for a FIRE-minded person. If you have enough ambition to work and save to get to FI, you probably will end up making money somehow, even just with your hobbies, or cutting your expenses because you have the time and resources to do so. As an example: I'm making a bunch of applesauce today with free apples from our neighbors' tree since I helped them make their sauce yesterday. And I took a free basket weaving class which is going to probably end up being a bunch of Christmas presents for family, since it's a super fun hobby I want to get better at. Semi-retiring is pretty loving sweet. I don't think a perpetual state of happiness is possible for a human, despite what the Hare Krishna's think. Leisurely activities 100% of the time just wouldn't have enough contrast. I'm spending half the year working part time hours and the other full time plus as the flow of contracts changes through the year. I'm working on making better use of the slow times but it feels a little like retirement for half the year.
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Sep 18, 2017 22:56
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My idea of FI is to be at a point in my career where I'm making $250k/yr then work out a deal where I just go part time (work only mornings, for instance) but still make $125k.
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Sep 19, 2017 08:50
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The problem is that the high-paying jobs are usually the ones that are less flexible about reduced hours.
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Sep 19, 2017 09:19
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True but I like to think at some point if you are delivering a shitload of real value for a company they would rather keep you even if it's part time (and pay you less) then simply see you walk out the door
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Sep 20, 2017 08:33
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Devian666 posted:I don't think a perpetual state of happiness is possible for a human, despite what the Hare Krishna's think. Leisurely activities 100% of the time just wouldn't have enough contrast. Yea agreed. FI/wagework breaks allow leisure when your body needs to leisure, and work when your mind needs to work. It's pretty super. I'm not FI, just taking a long work break, and I think I like the impermanence of it. Makes me want to seize the day. I try to imagine looking back on this period from the perspective of my future office chair, and what exactly I'll remember about it. I dunno, I'm really happy about the choices I made and luck that I had that led up to this work break, what an insane liberation it is. I wish everybody got this opportunity.
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Sep 20, 2017 18:33
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Rocks posted:True but I like to think at some point if you are delivering a shitload of real value for a company they would rather keep you even if it's part time (and pay you less) then simply see you walk out the door If that were true then employers would also pay employees more instead of giving them little in the way of raises until they jump ship. It happens, but it's rare, and getting more rare.
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Sep 20, 2017 20:49
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It really sucks that most companies would rather get the short-term benefit of paying someone under market rate until they eventually get fed up and leave rather than build a lasting positive relationship by adequately adjusting pay. I've fortunately been able to pressure my employer with raises and promotions over the years, but that has required a lot of self advocacy and confidence (and a little luck with timing and good managers). But unfortunately the same company has lost several very good, very promising younger/junior employees because they primarily did not give them raises and promotions to keep up with their rapidly rising marketability. I understand the perspective that it feels "crazy" to give someone a 50-100% raise, but in a hot market that is what happens when you get a couple years good experience under your belt. Plus it's not like they have any issue paying market rate for "senior" hires who have half the time turned out to be duds compared to these bright junior guys who didn't know how to advocate for themselves. I've had honest conversations with some of the more junior people that I'm close with telling them to push hard for raises and promotions, because they generally won't come unless you ask/demand it.
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Sep 20, 2017 22:31
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Also once you hit the 250k range, you're not really seen as an easily replaceable cog in the machine anymore. If you were why would they be paying you 250k which does open the door to more flexible negotiation around this stuff.
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Sep 20, 2017 23:25
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Guinness posted:It really sucks that most companies would rather get the short-term benefit of paying someone under market rate until they eventually get fed up and leave rather than build a lasting positive relationship by adequately adjusting pay. Well the reason for that is most companies are accountable to shareholders or private investors for the money they spend on wages
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Sep 22, 2017 00:04
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Yeah I think "will losing this senior guy and hiring two junior guys for the less money be more or less profitable" is a pretty hard question to answer a lot of the time.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:02
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