|
POOL IS CLOSED posted:I'm not seeing why this requires Lion, to be honest. I'm probably just slow. The single opportunity Yasu identifies as her ability to live a happy life depends on not being inflicted with this injury. Her dream world is not a fantasy where Battler remembers his promise and comes back to her, or a world where she is happily adopted and has a family, or a world where she is able to marry George without any internal conflicts, or one where she never finds out about Kinzo, or any other possibilities. As far as Yasu is concerned, this is the point that dooms her, regardless of everything that came afterwards. To Yasu--and emphasized by the narration--Lion's specific circumstances truly were her one chance. You can agree or disagree once you understand what she's talking about, but it's important to understand exactly why she feels that way.
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 04:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 08:38 |
|
|
Raelle posted:The single opportunity Yasu identifies as her ability to live a happy life depends on not being inflicted with this injury. Her dream world is not a fantasy where Battler remembers his promise and comes back to her, or a world where she is happily adopted and has a family, or a world where she is able to marry George without any internal conflicts, or one where she never finds out about Kinzo, or any other possibilities. As far as Yasu is concerned, this is the point that dooms her, regardless of everything that came afterwards. Ah, so you mean that Lion is strictly required as a foil.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 04:03
|
|
|
POOL IS CLOSED posted:I choose to see that as the character's feelings rather than something the narrative is trying to push as a truth. Yeah, I mean, it's not like Yasu really has healthy feelings towards herself. Hell, they've outright said they see Lion as their only shot at happiness, implying there's no way they could have ever been happy, and we know that's not true*. They've got a heck of a case of tunnel vision due to a number factors (mental illness, isolation, abuse, etc). * I mean with understanding therapy, a pile of riches, and a new life somewhere they at least had a chance to be... nnnnot as miserable as they were when planning the massacre?
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 04:03
|
|
|
I'm also trying to think of fall-related injuries that would lead to this, and I can only come to the conclusion Nanjo did some incredibly unethical and unnecessary surgery. (I'm thinking about a semi-famous story involving a botched circumcision and a grossly unethical psychiatrist, but names are escaping me.)PetraCore posted:* I mean with understanding therapy, a pile of riches, and a new life somewhere they at least had a chance to be... nnnnot as miserable as they were when planning the massacre? On this we are in agreement. e: it's a big leap from being infertile to being incapable of love, but then I suppose it's possible Yasu internalized a lot of toxic bullshit from basically every mother in this family. ZiegeDame fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Sep 20, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 04:40
|
|
|
I took "a body incapable of love" to mean just physical love. You can imagine the idea of having injuries so severe that standard physical intercourse is impossible for a variety of reasons. Keep in mind what this implies for Yasu's relationship with George, who talks about wanting children more than once. Obviously that's not the entire universe of love, but a) we're not talking about a person viewing the universe with a dispassionate, rational eye and b) it's still a pretty drat big hurdle to overcome if it has happened to you.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 04:47
|
|
|
I've taken it to mean fertility or scar related, but honestly, I don't want gory details.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 05:00
|
|
|
ZiegeDame posted:I'm also trying to think of fall-related injuries that would lead to this, and I can only come to the conclusion Nanjo did some incredibly unethical and unnecessary surgery. (I'm thinking about a semi-famous story involving a botched circumcision and a grossly unethical psychiatrist, but names are escaping me.) The Man From Nineteen Years Ago posted:"...I won't appear in front of anyone until you introduce me. Don't worry. Oh yeah, it's useless to try and search for me. Your mansion is huge. You even have a phone system in it. And I'm sure you don't want to meet me, right? Or else, do you want to expose me and introduce me to everyone...? Introduce me to Jessica too. Tell her I'm her older brother by one year. Heheheheheheheheheheheheheheh!!" idonotlikepeas posted:I took "a body incapable of love" to mean just physical love. You can imagine the idea of having injuries so severe that standard physical intercourse is impossible for a variety of reasons. Keep in mind what this implies for Yasu's relationship with George, who talks about wanting children more than once. Obviously that's not the entire universe of love, but a) we're not talking about a person viewing the universe with a dispassionate, rational eye and b) it's still a pretty drat big hurdle to overcome if it has happened to you. quote:
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 05:11
|
|
|
Probably safe to blame that rant on Kinzo.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 05:22
|
|
|
MonsterEnvy posted:This is pretty easily explained by ether them changing outfits after being questioned. Or one giving an ailbi for the other and Erika not bother to check with the other. I was totally assuming that was the case in that scenario. However. then we have numerous times where Erika appears to think everyone on the island is there, while also not seeing one of the two. In episode 5, there are numerous points where everyone (alive) theoretically gathers into one group, but Erika never seems to see anything wrong with the scenario. ProfessorProf posted:Why would they need to provide alibis for two people? From the moment Erika stepped onto the island, nobody has said anything about there being two servants named Shannon and Kanon. A fair possibility. In this scenario, why then does Erika find nothing wrong with the introduction of both Shannon and Kanon? That is required for episode 6, at the very least. Possibly for episode 5 as well, depending how much of the piece's senses the player shares. idonotlikepeas posted:I took "a body incapable of love" to mean just physical love. You can imagine the idea of having injuries so severe that standard physical intercourse is impossible for a variety of reasons. Keep in mind what this implies for Yasu's relationship with George, who talks about wanting children more than once. Obviously that's not the entire universe of love, but a) we're not talking about a person viewing the universe with a dispassionate, rational eye and b) it's still a pretty drat big hurdle to overcome if it has happened to you. To some degree, it might not even be physically impossible of physical love, it's just Yasu sees it that way due to scarring. I could easily see where that mental connection could be made - hell, I know what it's like to have that come up. ZiegeDame posted:I think the disconnect here is you're talking about a person or character, and I'm talking about a story. It'd be a pretty boring story where a witch just descends from the heavens and gives the hero everything they want. The hero has to face adversity and struggle to overcome it in order for the happy ending to feel earned, to make the story worth reading. This, to me, is the difference between happiness and a happy ending. I will concede that point. Lion, thus far, has not resulted in an earned happy ending.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 05:29
|
|
|
Cyouni posted:In this scenario, why then does Erika find nothing wrong with the introduction of both Shannon and Kanon? This introduction, which notably happens off-screen, could be "This is our servant, Shannon." If only Shannon is scheduled that day, why would anyone introduce Kanon to her? I'm not talking about EP6 here at all, it's a very different beast.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 05:32
|
|
|
ZiegeDame posted:Probably safe to blame that rant on Kinzo. The rant is literally about how George will stop loving her once any sexual contact is initiated and he sees her form as a "maggot."
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 05:44
|
|
|
ProfessorProf posted:This introduction, which notably happens off-screen, could be "This is our servant, Shannon." If only Shannon is scheduled that day, why would anyone introduce Kanon to her? Theoretically possible - I checked the red and it never mentions Shannon or Kanon by name (nor anyone else in the dining hall except Eva). But then everything relies on the piece and the player sharing absolutely no information.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 05:53
|
|
|
POOL IS CLOSED posted:I've taken it to mean fertility or scar related, but honestly, I don't want gory details. Instead of beating around the bush and leading to a bunch of unnecessary confusion, I'm just gonna be explicit with what is virtually certain to have happened. Basically Yasu was DMAB, fell off the cliff resulting in some terrible injury that totally ruined the genitals, Nanjo and/or Genji for whatever dumb reason said "guess we should raise her as a girl then" as a result. Obviously this pretty big discrepancy between their body and that of other girls becomes clear as they become older, and the reality is confirmed after she solves the epitaph (with some info on being an incest baby who is related to her love interests added just to make things even worse). In particular, this aspect is pretty much necessary towards understanding the motive behind her wanting to "roleplay" as Kanon.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 05:53
|
|
|
POOL IS CLOSED posted:I've taken it to mean fertility or scar related, but honestly, I don't want gory details. Agreed. going into too much detail feels a bit ghoulish especially when it's clearly still p personal and raw to the character involved.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 05:58
|
|
|
^^^ Well you best strap in because I have an entire degree in ripping out the guts.Raelle posted:The rant is literally about how George will stop loving her once any sexual contact is initiated and he sees her form as a "maggot." I mean the idea that the only love men care about is sex had to come from somewhere. 4 or 5 years ago Beatrice was rationalizing how Battler was totally coming back for them they just have to keep waiting faithfully, which is a pretty stark contrast with that rant. There's only one obvious thing they learned about men and lust between those two points. ZiegeDame fucked around with this message at 06:04 on Sep 20, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 06:01
|
|
|
resurgam40 posted:If the meta Beatrice is a metaphor for Yasu and her struggle (and I believe that they are), this is a parallel that can be drawn, and you can see the mental strain Yasu is under throughout. I can't (and wouldn't even if I could) really refute this point of view, but just so you know I mostly subscribe to a more literal interpretation of events than yours. We're kind of talking about apples and oranges here in that sense. resurgam40 posted:Think about it: when is the first time we see Beatrice completely, utterly lose it? When Kanon and Shannon start standing against her- well, the latter mostly, but you begin to notice how much more crazy she gets when Kanon starts fighting- and now that we know that they are truly facets of her being, well... that paints a really interesting portrait of the overall psyche of Yasu, doesn't it? Well, yes, but that's specifically piece-Beatrice. Naturally that reflects Yasu's thoughts at the time, not necessarily meta-Beato's. idonotlikepeas posted:I took "a body incapable of love" to mean just physical love. You can imagine the idea of having injuries so severe that standard physical intercourse is impossible for a variety of reasons. If anyone's wondering why the writing is so vague on this, R07 said this whole deal "is a pretty adult topic, so I had to obscure its depiction".
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 06:23
|
|
|
I just, uh, realized. When Kinzo is dying... he's apologizing tearfully to 'Beatrice', then to Sayo, then he says "Thank you, Lion. My child... And Beatrice, as well. Thank you for this last chance... to ask for forgiveness... Of course, I don't believe that I have been forgiven by just this. The rest, I will do as I burn in the fires of hell. I, Ushiromiya Kinzo, have no more regrets in this life!! None at all! No regrets or things left undone!!" No regrets or things left undone. Because, after all, he's apologized to his child! So touching! It's not like he's got 4 other children he severely abus- Oh, he does? Well, that's okay, he doesn't regret it, because they're nothing to him. If he had detonated the bomb 21 years ago, Beatrice would have survived, and his other 4 kids would be dead, but what does he care? Little 12 year old Rosa? ah, gently caress her, she's not his BEATORICHE. She can just die, right?
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 06:37
|
|
|
I gotta say, this line of discussion has put the end of episode 2 in a whole new light.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 06:39
|
|
|
PetraCore posted:No regrets or things left undone. This reminds me of my favorite line in EP7  "...It was a peaceful death. I don't think he had any regrets at all."yes thank you nanjo
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 06:43
|
|
|
PetraCore posted:I just, uh, realized. My go-to indication as for Kinzo's feelings about his family is always pointing out that the blast radius for the bomb is design to exclude Kuwadorian. Beatrice must stay safe, but everyone else? Ehhhhhh.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 06:44
|
|
|
I am legitimately unsure if Kinzo realizes his children are people.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 07:00
|
|
|
ZiegeDame posted:I gotta say, this line of discussion has put the end of episode 2 in a whole new light. Episode 2 is secretly the best episode of Umineko but you only realize it in hindsight.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 07:27
|
|
|
Hello! I'm a witch but have been avoiding posting in the thread, since I'm terrible at avoiding making silly comments or suggesting/leading people too much, but now that we're at the conclusion to the majority of the mystery aspect of the story, and have discussed this aspect of it extensively already, I might as well throw my hat in.ZiegeDame posted:I'm also trying to think of fall-related injuries that would lead to this, and I can only come to the conclusion Nanjo did some incredibly unethical and unnecessary surgery. (I'm thinking about a semi-famous story involving a botched circumcision and a grossly unethical psychiatrist, but names are escaping me.) You're thinking of the case of David Reimer, who lost their genitalia in a circumcision gone awry after birth. At the time - which, incidentally, extends to the period when Umineko takes place - the medical community considered gender identity to be something basically fluid until maturity, and so they were raised as a girl for much of their early life. They eventually transitioned back to male in their teens, but committed suicide in 2004. This event itself arose out of the precedent set in regards to the treatment of intersex children in the post-war period, when it became considered appropriate to operate on ambiguous genitalia to the end of normalizing it as resembling one sex or another, in spite of that often ending in serious dysfunction. It's only a practice coming to an end in the western world in the past few years. I think it's an important subject to think about when considering Umineko as a text. Maybe even more so than trans issues, though the two are obviously linked to a fair degree. ZiegeDame posted:It's a big leap from being infertile to being incapable of love, but then I suppose it's possible Yasu internalized a lot of toxic bullshit from basically every mother in this family. Without saying too much, I think when Yasu says she's incapable of love, she means it very literally. As a story, Umineko is pretty good at disguising what it is, fundamentally, about, until you go back knowing what you're looking for. All over the text, (though especially in episode 2,) there are tons of scenes that concern something completely different than you think on the first read. Like other people have said, it's worth a second go yourself, but to give another example beyond the one Raelle's: There's the scene where Kanon is killed, and how it's described when he draws his "sword". This is the one in question, and I'll let you draw your own conclusions. This issue can get a bit muddy, but I think it's important to realize that Yasu probably did have issues that extended beyond her identity and self-image, and it's quite possible that having a fully "conventional" relationship was something that would've always been off the table for her, even if things had turned out okay. In tandem with that, I'd also like to double back a bit and say that, though I think it's a valid reading, I disagree with prof's understanding of the term "furniture". I think the proper definition, which can be applied pretty much anywhere in the text that it's used, would be "someone/something unable to enter into a physical relationship". An imaginary friend can never be touched or truly connected with - a point that was labored pretty strongly in episode 4 - and as for the other instances... The only (human) characters that ever use the term in reference to themselves are Yasu and Genji. For someone in Yasu's shoes, who has lived a life defined by isolation, and who has a frame of reference rooted more in her interactions with her fictional universe and characters than with human beings, I think it's understandable why she might use language like that, rather than speaking more literally concerning herself. And I think in the latter's case, if you think about his actions throughout the story and the context he's in, you can get an impression of why he might regard himself in that way, as well. Though in both instances, it's obviously intended to be a reflection of their feelings, rather than a completely objective truth. PoorWeather fucked around with this message at 07:51 on Sep 20, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 07:30
|
|
|
What a good post! I would like to add that, something interesting to think about is how we know the first two episodes are the only ones personally penned by Yasu. The rest are by Hachijo. As important as Battler and Kinzo's sins are, they're not the focus of the episodes that we know to be penned by Yasu. What is she chiefly concerned about? Driving home, practically ad nauseum, the question and agony of being "furniture" and its inability to love. Raelle fucked around with this message at 08:17 on Sep 20, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 07:53
|
|
|
ZiegeDame posted:I'm also trying to think of fall-related injuries that would lead to this, and I can only come to the conclusion Nanjo did some incredibly unethical and unnecessary surgery. (I'm thinking about a semi-famous story involving a botched circumcision and a grossly unethical psychiatrist, but names are escaping me.) David Reimer, and honestly, that, and this; Ytlaya posted:Instead of beating around the bush and leading to a bunch of unnecessary confusion, I'm just gonna be explicit with what is virtually certain to have happened. Basically Yasu was DMAB, fell off the cliff resulting in some terrible injury that totally ruined the genitals, Nanjo and/or Genji for whatever dumb reason said "guess we should raise her as a girl then" as a result. Obviously this pretty big discrepancy between their body and that of other girls becomes clear as they become older, and the reality is confirmed after she solves the epitaph (with some info on being an incest baby who is related to her love interests added just to make things even worse). kinda make me see Yasu as a guy. Part of its projection, I certainly had an idealised girl version of myself who could be everything I was raised to be and certainly never thought about having a fully male body, and I've heard similar stories from other trans/intersex people, so I can see how that, along with being a servant from such a young age, could lead to the existence of Shannon. And then there's just; what are the odds that the male child they raise as a girl would turn out to actually be a girl? It's possible, yeah, but pretty unlikely. Not that it matters much either way, we'll never know for sure (I'm assuming) but most people seem to be defaulting to female, so I figured I'd give an alternative view.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 08:16
|
|
|
Graylien posted:David Reimer, and honestly, that, and this; A lot of Yasu's nitty gritty gender identity stuff is up for interpretation and I think the way you're leaning could certainly be perfectly legitimate. I default to female pronouns, but I primarily view Yasu's gender as Really Complicated, and Kanon as Extremely Important in the map of it. In addition to what you're saying, Yasu's obvious attraction towards men would have been even more deeply confusing as they were trying to navigate this.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 08:20
|
|
|
Graylien posted:kinda make me see Yasu as a guy. Part of its projection, I certainly had an idealised girl version of myself who could be everything I was raised to be and certainly never thought about having a fully male body, and I've heard similar stories from other trans/intersex people, so I can see how that, along with being a servant from such a young age, could lead to the existence of Shannon. And then there's just; what are the odds that the male child they raise as a girl would turn out to actually be a girl? It's possible, yeah, but pretty unlikely. Keep in mind they wouldn't really have any reason to think something is wrong until reaching puberty, and Shannon was created long before that. edit: I mean, you could argue there was dysphoria, but I never got the impression Yasu had much of a problem with presenting as a girl prior to the body issues revealing themselves (and I also don't think Ryuukishi is specifically educated on the topic of gender/sexuality, though fortunately the subject is flexible enough that you can still come up with a realistic explanation for what happened with Yasu). PetraCore posted:Agreed. going into too much detail feels a bit ghoulish especially when it's clearly still p personal and raw to the character involved. I know your intentions are good here, but the "gory details," so to speak, are actually kinda vitally important in this case. Unlike other aspects of this story, I don't believe the intended interpretation of this specific issue is supposed to be just total ambiguity. While Ryuukishi purposely avoided making this explicit, it is very heavily implied in the text. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 08:31 on Sep 20, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 08:28
|
|
|
I don't think that Uasu being DMAB is really up for debate, but as for identity, I've always seen Sayo as female (Kanon is the youngest and weakest of the 3 personas), and Lion as male. There is room for reading as NB obviously but in context I don't think the language really fits for mid 80's Japan. Lion is the designated heir of an old, super conservative family, I doubt he/they would have the vocabulary to form such a conception, irritation about androgyny notwithstanding.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 08:44
|
|
|
Rodyle posted:but as for identity, I've always seen Sayo as female (Kanon is the youngest and weakest of the 3 personas), and Lion as male. Now this I take issue with. If Lion is how they identify outside the coercive interference of Genji/Nanjo, then that is how they identify. How they express or understand that identity can change based on life circumstances, but not the identity itself. At this point I'm starting to come around on the idea that if they lived in modern-day America they'd probably identify as non-binary. As for a Japanese understanding, well, here's a manga I'm reading about a boy who dresses like a girl and (frequently) identifies as a boy and is attracted to boys.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 15:47
|
|
|
I think it depends a lot on your personal views, too, how you interpret Sayo and Lion. Personally, I think they're NB (agender or androgynous) where Lion got to explore their identity and push back whereas Sayo had to go with how they were assigned (which ties into the broader theme of Sayo feeling pressured to make herself into the person other people want her to be). Lion/Sayo/the author might not have had the vocabulary to express it, but that doesn't mean you can't interpret the character that way  .I fully admit that my interpretation is based on the way Lion describes their gender as lining up close to thoughts and discussions I've had. But ultimately, Lion/Sayo's ambiguousness is something that's part and parcel of some of the story's overall themes rather than any attempt at gender and sexuality discourse, I feel. Even for real people, there's often no good description for someone who's further away from the binary on sexuality and/or gender and seeing as how Lion/Sayo is fictional, you can make the case for different readings of their character. It's not like they can show up and answer your questions (or pinch your rear end to tell you to stop asking  ).Again, that's just my opinion on the whole thing and I got no issues for people who put them in a more binary identity. Gender is weird.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 16:29
|
|
|
How much of this tragedy could have been avoided if, instead of mystery novels, Yasu had Chuck Tingle?
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 16:58
|
|
|
ZiegeDame posted:How much of this tragedy could have been avoided if, instead of mystery novels, Yasu had Chuck Tingle? ...Somehow I'm worried the outcome would be worse, especially if Yasu read Tingle's tweets. Skinless reverse twins, anyone?
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 17:06
|
|
|
POOL IS CLOSED posted:...Somehow I'm worried the outcome would be worse, especially if Yasu read Tingle's tweets. It doesn't matter if you're furniture, a dinosaur, or a sentient helicopter, LOVE IS REAL If the abstract concept of economic policy can have a fulfilling sexual relationship, then so can you, Yasu.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 17:12
|
|
|
Rodyle posted:I don't think that Uasu being DMAB is really up for debate, but as for identity, I've always seen Sayo as female (Kanon is the youngest and weakest of the 3 personas), and Lion as male. There is room for reading as NB obviously but in context I don't think the language really fits for mid 80's Japan. Lion is the designated heir of an old, super conservative family, I doubt he/they would have the vocabulary to form such a conception, irritation about androgyny notwithstanding. But Lion doesn't really exist without the context of Sayo, imo. Lion is Sayo's interpretation of an ideal future, as well as the person that actually results in. EDIT: Basically if Sayo was a binary female it's interesting that they make Lion ambiguous. PetraCore fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Sep 20, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 17:38
|
|
|
This gender talk has me deeply confused regarding what's going on anymore. I don't have there experience to keep up with you guys on this. All I can tell is that Yasu has gender issues, and we don't actually know what Yasu's gender is. And gently caress Kinzo and Nanjo.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 17:54
|
|
|
ZiegeDame posted:Now this I take issue with. If Lion is how they identify outside the coercive interference of Genji/Nanjo, then that is how they identify. How they express or understand that identity can change based on life circumstances, but not the identity itself. She doesn't identify as Lion though.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 18:07
|
|
|
Dr Pepper posted:She doesn't identify as Lion though. More precisely, we don't know how Lion identifies beyond "none of your goddamn business." We don't know how Yasu identifies, either. I think ZiegeDame's point was that regardless of how Lion, Yasu, Beatrice, Shannon, and Kanon individually present themselves, Lion and Yasu should share the same gender identity, to which we are not privy.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 18:46
|
|
|
bman in 2288 posted:And gently caress Kinzo and Nanjo. You forgot Genji. gently caress Genji. Confused Llama posted:More precisely, we don't know how Lion identifies beyond "none of your goddamn business." We don't know how Yasu identifies, either. I think ZiegeDame's point was that regardless of how Lion, Yasu, Beatrice, Shannon, and Kanon individually present themselves, Lion and Yasu should share the same gender identity, to which we are not privy. Yeah, that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 18:49
|
|
|
Confused Llama posted:I think ZiegeDame's point was that regardless of how Lion, Yasu, Beatrice, Shannon, and Kanon individually present themselves, Lion and Yasu should share the same gender identity, to which we are not privy. edit: I don't think you can really call Lion/Yasu the same person since the environmental "input" is completely different in each case.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 19:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 08:38 |
|
|
Ytlaya posted:edit: I don't think you can really call Lion/Yasu the same person since the environmental "input" is completely different in each case. Yeah, this is what I posted about earlier. They're not the same person.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 19:04
|
|