|
ZiegeDame posted:Yeah, that. Isn't this assuming that environment can't influence gender identity at all, it can only ever mask or support it, which is still a question very much unanswered?
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 19:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 15:35 |
|
|
Ytlaya posted:edit: I don't think you can really call Lion/Yasu the same person since the environmental "input" is completely different in each case. You wanna get into a debate about nature vs. nurture or just trust trans people when we say we were born this way?
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 19:05
|
|
|
ZiegeDame posted:You wanna get into a debate about nature vs. nurture or just trust trans people when we say we were born this way? They can both be trans or NB without being the same person.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 19:06
|
|
|
ZiegeDame posted:You wanna get into a debate about nature vs. nurture or just trust trans people when we say we were born this way? Yo, as a fellow trans lady, I'm not willing to fully discount environment in the development of gender identity. Also, the helicopter joke was reeeallly unnessecary. Nea fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Sep 20, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 19:12
|
|
|
ZiegeDame posted:You forgot Genji. gently caress Genji. It's personally easier for me to forgive Genji and Kumasawa for their part in this, even if they are undeniably part of this cover-up and absolutely contributors to Yasu's problem. Kumasawa seems to have wanted to help more than she did, but due to all the societal factors of just taking a baby away and fear of making things even worse, I get why she didn't do more than she did, even though I do blame her a little for not just taking charge of things and just taking the baby to raise herself, which wasn't happening. As for Genji, well... To be honest, Genji just seems to me to be a completely broken person in his own right, just as broken as Kinzo, just differently. Where Yasu struggled with her furniture label, Genji has internalized it completely, and while he had the capacity to realize that the things Kinzo did were wrong, he neither had the knowledge of how to even deal with it or the will to do anything drastic which might have fixed the problem: he's kind of the end result of the "furniture" thing being taken too far- he is now furniture, a completely broken-in slave. He could have had the best intentions in the world (and I believe he did want the best for Yasu, and the other siblings), but it doesn't matter because he is unable to formulate a solution which doesn't involve his master, Kinzo, or the island where he works. For heaven's sake, when was the last time Genji was even off this island? So in the end, while I can't absolve Genji of blame, I feel more sorry than anything else and find Genji to be a mostly tragic character. Though not as sorry as I feel for Gohda, who didn't even know about any of this and did nothing to deserve the agonies visited upon him. Oh Gohda, forgive me that I was so mean to you in the first episode, I grasp you along with Battler in my big apology hug 
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 19:16
|
|
|
resurgam40 posted:Though not as sorry as I feel for Gohda, who didn't even know about any of this and did nothing to deserve the agonies visited upon him. Oh Gohda, forgive me that I was so mean to you in the first episode, I grasp you along with Battler in my big apology hug Watch ep8 introduce Gohda's witch form and reveal that he was originally Hitler's personal chef that stowed away on the submarine and got plastic surgery to avoid being hunted down.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 19:24
|
|
|
resurgam40 posted:
Gohda was That Guy from work. You know the type. That dick coworker who sucks up to the boss. He deserves everything that comes to him. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 19:37
|
|
|
resurgam40 posted:he's kind of the end result of the "furniture" thing being taken too far- he is now furniture, a completely broken-in slave. I really don't think that's true. Or if it is, he was broken in by none other than himself. As terrible as Kinzo may be, from his perspective at least they've always been friends, not a master and a slave. When Genji says he's furniture, I believe he's referring more to his function as a servant. The notion that a servant is silent and out of the way yet ready to be utilized at any moment. Unlike Shannon and Kanon, he never denies being human although, well, he never happens to affirm it either. He does seem to use furniture basically as a simple synonym for servant, though. "Servants are supposed to be like living furniture. ...Genji-san says it a lot." (Jessica) "...No matter how old it becomes, furniture carries out its work like furniture until the end." "...Rosa-sama, we are furniture in service to the Ushiromiya family. ...Whether you trust us or not is no business of ours. No matter what assessment you give us, we will merely continue to serve until our final hour." Well, if you still want to say that's as good as being a slave I don't think I can do much to argue back. tiistai fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Sep 20, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 19:58
|
|
|
POOL IS CLOSED posted:They can both be trans or NB without being the same person. Right, sorry, I was still responding with my hackles up from the earlier idea that they could have different, binary identities based on whether or not Genji and/or Nanjo coercively assigned them a gender based on what was convenient for their injuries. Certainly Lion and Yasu are very different in 1986, but they were exactly the same in 1967 before Natsushi did a murder. But my conception of the self contains the idea that however much a person might change based on their life, they're still the same person. And even understanding one's own self can be incredibly complex and difficult and constrained by language or life experiences which greatly influences how that self is expressed. Gender in particular is an area where our present language is woefully inadequate to perfectly describe it (though we're working on that) so trying to pin down one's own identity can be a life-long process of learning, exploration, and best-fit compromises. But if there is some fundamental property that makes me me and you you, it must be something too complex for our brains to fully understand. In the spirit of best-fit word available, I guess I'm talking about the soul. So yeah, I believe that Lion and Yasu have the same soul. So anyway, all that aside, some people need to familiarize themself with the works of Dr. Chuck Tingle before they start crawling up my rear end.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 20:04
|
|
|
Dr Pepper posted:Gohda was That Guy from work. I mean, considering what we've learned about Nanjo, Genji et al. at this point... you go, dick coworker! Stick it to them -- it's not really sufficient penance for their complicity in this whole story, but it helps!
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 20:15
|
|
|
ZiegeDame posted:Now this I take issue with. If Lion is how they identify outside the coercive interference of Genji/Nanjo, then that is how they identify. How they express or understand that identity can change based on life circumstances, but not the identity itself. Mercury Hat posted:I think it depends a lot on your personal views, too, how you interpret Sayo and Lion. Personally, I think they're NB (agender or androgynous) where Lion got to explore their identity and push back whereas Sayo had to go with how they were assigned (which ties into the broader theme of Sayo feeling pressured to make herself into the person other people want her to be). Lion/Sayo/the author might not have had the vocabulary to express it, but that doesn't mean you can't interpret the character that way Similarly, I was not saying that a NB reading is invalid, I just don't know that even R07 himself has that level of understanding or vocabulary on the subject (he might), nevermind the character. But as was said, the details of identity are left deliberately vague because, at least as the story posits, they shouldn't be necessary for one to love Yasu or work with Lion. It's their business, and nobody else's. Rody One Half fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Sep 20, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 20:39
|
|
.
).
|
I think you can have the various readings of Yasu/Lion's specific One True Gender Identity (I certainly have mine--I read Lion as male, and that informing Yasu heavily), but the key thing here is understanding the horrific nature and sheer violation of the situation she was thrown in and how it impacted the way she viewed her relationships and herself. This is not something she was given an opportunity to work through in any healthy capacity, and in terms of her suicidal feelings, what the furniture issue really informs is that the roulette and her plan was not simply a matter of choosing which persona to align with, or which relationship to pursue. It's about understanding that from Yasu's perspective, from the beginning, all of them are fundamentally impossible and doomed to fail, no matter what she chooses. The only way ANY of her relationships can be "real" is under the veil of fantasy magic. Anything George and Shannon have is going to go down in flames when George realizes that Shannon is "really a man." (Not necessarily true, but that's filtered through Yasu's terror and self-loathing.) He will hate her and be disgusted by her. The same with Jessica - how can she ever ask Jessica to reconcile that Kanon, the boy she likes, grew up as her female best friend Shannon, and yes, "lacks the ability to love" and all those connotations? Even if she leaves the island, how could she ask anyone--whether she presents as a man or a woman--to have a successful, healthy relationship with her? Yes, there are potentially ways for a person in Yasu's situation to find a measure of happiness, but keep in mind that this is 1980s Japan, and Yasu would have grown up with absolutely no awareness of any of those options or resources she would have needed. The catbox is a way for Yasu to ensure that Shannon, fundamentally, is never exposed to have been a lie from the very beginning. If they all die and go to the Golden Land, leaving no bodies behind, no one can see the truth behind Shannon and Kanon, and they will become as "real" as they are able to be. This agony is reflected in that EP2 rant - you may initially think it's about Kinzo and men, but it's fundamentally about how Yasu sees herself. Disgusting furniture scrap, filthy maggot, someone who could never be loved once someone sees her true form. And this is all before getting into the awful, messy business of Yasu sorting out what she could be to herself, and what was stolen from her in the coercive reassignment. This is why it's so important to understand the true nature of "furniture" and how it informs Yasu's motives. As I alluded to before, there's a reason why this element is the one the episodes penned by Yasu personally is the one obsessed over, far beyond any other, in the scope of her motive and emotions. Raelle fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Sep 20, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 20:59
|
|
|
resurgam40 posted:Though not as sorry as I feel for Gohda, who didn't even know about any of this and did nothing to deserve the agonies visited upon him. Oh Gohda, forgive me that I was so mean to you in the first episode, I grasp you along with Battler in my big apology hug Poltergrift posted:I mean, considering what we've learned about Nanjo, Genji et al. at this point... you go, dick coworker! Stick it to them -- it's not really sufficient penance for their complicity in this whole story, but it helps!  I'm glad to see that Gohda gets the appreciation he needed. He was an ordinary person, probably annoyed by how the 16/18 year old was higher up in rank than him and the two other adult servants were either adult servants were either living furniture (Genji) or absent 70% of the time (Kumasawa). He was outside the clique. Combine that with the strange rumors surrounding the strange private island, and these are very unusual working conditions to get used to. I personally see his attempt trying to show off his cooking skills as a way to show that not only is he actually still useful/worthy of consideration, but also as a way to reclaim the old pride he had before. His character goes along with R07's theme of loss since he's dealing with being lowly in comparison to his past days of glory in that way so he doesn't really stick out that much in comparison to the rest of the cast. When given the chance to be appreciated, which is his main sticking point, he warms up, even welcoming Yasu happily to enjoy the food. But like it does to everyone, Rokkejima does bad things to a person’s mood.Rodyle posted:Similarly, I was not saying that a NB reading is invalid, I just don't know that even R07 himself has that level of understanding or vocabulary on the subject (he might), nevermind the character. I agree 100% with this. Me personally I see R07 not really understanding gender topics that well, but understands that issues do exist and have the potential to gently caress with people's lives. Sexism was spoken of pretty clearcut, but the gender dysphoria and identity topics were indeed ambiguous enough for a lot of people to find something relatable in it (and also for R07 not to fall flat on their face). The topics are there for the audience to digest, but overall the story shows off that it's a tragedy in an ordinary person’s life, not a joke or a gag that Japanese shows tend to make it out as. Edit: I'm typing as fast as possible on a mobile because I'm not sure when the angel tax probation is going to kick in. EagerSleeper fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Sep 20, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 21:01
|
|
|
Yeah one of the things I am pretty sure that Yasu is not aware of is that it is possible to get treatments and surgeries she herself consents to and decides how far they apply in order to treat sex dysphoria, and that while it is more difficult for the average person to access these treatments a wealthy-as-hell eccentric has the ability to get the highest standard of care. I mean there's still a limit to what medical science can do, especially in the 80s, but that is an aspect that I think she legitimately is not aware of, because it at least helps to resolve the dillema she finds impossible to resolve as it pertains to her body. If you had severe sex dysphoria but had no idea that treatment for that existed and more specifically that you had the money to go and get that treatment, it is easy to see how Yasu finds the idea of living a long and happy life impossible. I have friends who've expressed similar sentiments when they felt barred from treatment. It's not something to take lightly.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 00:29
|
|
|
On an island of murder, sin, and conspiracy, Magical Gohda Chef's biggest crime was just wanting to be a model worker for his wealthy employers.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 00:53
|
|
|
ZiegeDame posted:But my conception of the self contains the idea that however much a person might change based on their life, they're still the same person. What exactly does this even mean? Most traits are a function of biology and environment (either caused by biology, environment, or some interaction of the two), so I'm not sure what you're including as the "self" here. People can be taught to behave in different ways that aren't dictated biologically in one way or another and their values change accordingly (otherwise you end up coming to bizarre conclusions like certain cultures having a fundamental "self" that is more or less violent, which is obviously nonsense). The idea that Yasu would end up identifying as the same gender as Lion would normally make sense, though as others have mentioned there's always the possibility of her being NB or something (or, more likely, Ryuukishi just isn't that well-versed on topics related to gender/sexuality, though it's not a huge deal since there's still a plausible explanation).
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 03:45
|
|
|
Why is everyone assuming that Ryuukishi is ignorant about trans issues? Citation needed?
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 04:58
|
|
|
I wasn't suggesting he was ignorant about trans issues, I was saying that I don't know that he would specifically be taking into account something quite so modern as NB conceptions. Maybe he did! I don't know what the Japanese academic discourse on non-binary gender constructs would have been 10 years ago. e: and if someone does then by all means speak up because that'd be interesting as hell
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 05:06
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:What exactly does this even mean? Step 1: Read my whole post. Step 2: Choose one: a) Agree to disagree and let the matter lie b) Decide this is an appropriate place for amateur philosophy hour Odds are option b will at best be thematically appropriate in that the only possible outcomes will be an endless draw or giving up.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 06:52
|
|
|
PetraCore posted:Yeah one of the things I am pretty sure that Yasu is not aware of is that it is possible to get treatments and surgeries she herself consents to and decides how far they apply in order to treat sex dysphoria, and that while it is more difficult for the average person to access these treatments a wealthy-as-hell eccentric has the ability to get the highest standard of care. For the record, surgery in this respect is a lot more limited than people generally figure. Sexual assignment/reassignment procedures rely on the fact that male and female tissues in that area are basically homologous; So long as they function, it's possible to shift a lot of them from being one thing to another, or to the extremes from somewhere in between, and have them work mostly well. But on the other hand, it's a very different business to produce something functional, or even aesthetically normal, when there's little natural tissue left at all. Like, you might as well try to rebuild an amputated hand from scratch. I hope I'm not coming across as lecturing in saying this - It's just very common to see people in the Umineko fandom saying, "if only she'd been aware she could have surgery!" when it's... Not really that simple, I guess. ZiegeDame posted:You wanna get into a debate about nature vs. nurture or just trust trans people when we say we were born this way? I'd sort of agree that Yasu has a set "hard" sexual and gender identity across both timelines, but I think it's also important to remember that people make choices of what parts of themselves to express, or define themselves by, based on the circumstances they live through. When talking about Umineko, but also in general, I think it's good to respect those choices, even if - personally - it might seem like they were the wrong ones. For instance, if you think about it, the fact that Yasu gets a lot of joy out of being "Beatrice", an identity that was originally their grandmothers and was foisted on their mother in a horrible way, and that they absorbed and internalized as a result of the hosed up context in which they grew up, is pretty messed up and probably responsible for some of their misery in trying to contextualize their own identity. It's important to acknowledge that. But all the same, that doesn't mean you can say that it wasn't a part of who they were, or that it was unambiguously awful. PoorWeather fucked around with this message at 13:06 on Sep 21, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 07:35
|
|
|
PoorWeather posted:For instance, if you think about it, the fact that Yasu gets a lot of joy out of being "Beatrice", an identity that was originally their grandmothers and was foisted on their mother in a horrible way, and that they absorbed and internalized as a result of the hosed up context in which they grew up, is pretty messed up and probably responsible for some of their misery in trying to contextualize their own identity. It's important to acknowledge that. But all the same, that doesn't mean you can say that it wasn't a part of who they were, or that it was unambiguously awful. Hmmm, I've been thinking about this part, and rereading the old episodes... Yes, Yasu takes the image of Beatrice and seems at times relatively happy about it, but given her speech and actions as Beatrice in all of the games, both Meta and Piece, I have to ask: Is Yasu taking pleasure from assuming the persona of Beatrice, or from corrupting it? We know from flashbacks what Kinzo thought (or grew to think) about women, and we know that neither Bice nor her daughter weren't anything like the Beato we have come to know is actually Yasu in disguise, so what if Beato's assumption of the portrait is only to commandeer said image and skew it as far from Kinzo's ideal figure as possible and stomp all over his legacy before literally blowing it up? I mean, think about that picture in the hallway, think about what it would represent to Yasu, especially after learning the truth about her origins. It would represent the betrayal of the sacrifice their grandmother made- a betrayal made all the worse by Kinzo's maintenance of his marriage of convenience and implied planting of the idea of the theft of the gold... it would represent their mother's imprisonment and rape, which she wasn't allowed even the vocabulary to recognize, and which was allowed by three people Yasu had trusted in their youth. That picture was the distilment of the sheer lust of a coward and a rapist... one which escaped punishment before Yasu even knew the depth of his crimes. So what better image with which to underpin their revenge upon the Ushiromiya legacy? What better mouthpiece to taunt children who never really knew their father than taking one of the few known quantities about Kinzo- the hallway picture- and using it to essentially tell them that their father was a greedy, treacherous coward who thought nothing of their lives and even constructed a bomb to blow them all up with at any time?
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 14:57
|
|
|
Question, is it okay to post a theory about Umineko's literary influences by now? Mostly focusing on what I think inspired Ryukishi about Yasu(to an extent). There's a couple novels that I think inspired Umineko and Ryukishi mentioned all of them in the novel in one way or another. It's something I didn't very much notice the first time I read the series, but reading it along with the thread I've been sorta keeping note of novels/literary theories about it. Nothing earth shattering just stuff that amounts to "Huh, that's neat."
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 17:22
|
|
|
That's fine, as long as your argument doesn't rely on any of the meta elements of EP8.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 17:25
|
|
|
ProfessorProf posted:That's fine, as long as your argument doesn't rely on any of the meta elements of EP8. All focused on EP7 stuff, so it should be good. I'll double check with the witchchat once I finish the post before posting it here just in case I let anything slip by into the post.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 17:27
|
|
|
lotus circle posted:On an island of murder, sin, and conspiracy, Magical Gohda Chef's biggest crime was just wanting to be a model worker for his wealthy employers. Everyone should aspire to be the Magical Chef Gohda of their own lives... ;__; PetraCore posted:Why is everyone assuming that Ryuukishi is ignorant about trans issues? Citation needed? Rodyle said it better than I could, but while I agree R07 knows about gender issues, I'm not expecting this story to be the most accurate portrayal of it, or to take a moment just to point out specifically where Yasu is on the gender spectrum, because that kinda goes against the intentional ambiguity (the catbox) that Yasu has made for themselves. While I personally could see Yasu as a fellow non-binary ("Forget gender. Gender in general makes me feel gross, and has nothing to do with who I actually am. Please don't put gender expectations of behavior on me because I'm not ever going to feel or think in that way."), or possibly trans since they seem to put the most 'life' into their Shannon and Beatrice identities, or heck maybe even genderfluid since the Kanon identity was just as valid as the others, I don't think that R07 was considering terms like non-binary or genderfluid though. They were definitely conceptualizing it since Yasu's more comfortable being ambiguous right now than choosing one of the binary options, erasing any trace that the other gendered personalities existed, and sticking with the single choice for life. Maybe witches are cackling at what I just said, because possibly Episode 8's happy ending is going to involve Yasu completely throwing away their gender ambiguity, and being made into an 'honest,' traditional Yamato nadeshiko for Battler's sake. tl;dr Japanese POV on LGBT issues isn't the best yet. Usually. Who knows, maybe R07 does know about non-binary/genderfluidity?
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 18:05
|
|
|
PoorWeather posted:For instance, if you think about it, the fact that Yasu gets a lot of joy out of being "Beatrice", an identity that was originally their grandmothers and was foisted on their mother in a horrible way, and that they absorbed and internalized as a result of the hosed up context in which they grew up, is pretty messed up and probably responsible for some of their misery in trying to contextualize their own identity. It's important to acknowledge that. But all the same, that doesn't mean you can say that it wasn't a part of who they were, or that it was unambiguously awful. I keep coming back to the fact Kanon is the only persona who doesn't have a stated goal of destroying the other personas. Ultimately Shannon and Beatrice are both about denying their full, true self. Which is a thing people do all the time, they live in denial because the truth is scary and hard. And sometimes they go their whole life with that denial and the worst you can say is they didn't know what they were missing. And sometimes people have a safe and supportive environment in which to explore those aspects of themself and find out how they fit together and you get Lion. Episode 4 in particular has some good things to say about escapist fantasy, while also exploring the limits of what it can do and how it can turn sour. So yeah, Yasu's particular choice of fantasy lead them to taking on not just their own trauma but that of their mother and grandmother as well, and that's not gonna be good for anyone. If only Rudolf hadn't wanted to pet the wolves.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 18:27
|
|
|
Are you sure about that? Kanon hates Beatrice and breaks the golden butterfly.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:34
|
|
|
Kanon definitely hates Beatrice and her kill everyone including myself plan, which is already underway by that point, and would like to see the latter go away. I'm not sure that holds the same weight as Shannon declaring she will forget all about Kanon or Beatrice straight-up killing the both of them. I don't recall off the top of my head Kanon ever raging against mystery novels or make-believe tea parties.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 20:25
|
|
|
ZiegeDame posted:Kanon definitely hates Beatrice and her kill everyone including myself plan, which is already underway by that point, and would like to see the latter go away. I'm not sure that holds the same weight as Shannon declaring she will forget all about Kanon or Beatrice straight-up killing the both of them. I don't recall off the top of my head Kanon ever raging against mystery novels or make-believe tea parties. Early episode 2 suggests otherwise.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 23:02
|
|
|
tiistai posted:I really don't think that's true. Or if it is, he was broken in by none other than himself. As terrible as Kinzo may be, from his perspective at least they've always been friends, not a master and a slave. Just reading between the lines, Genji seems to be a very hard-set traditionalist who might put a little too much stock into the feudal ideal of a Wealthy Lord and His Infallable Retainer. Genji wants very hard to be Jeeves to Kinzo's Wooster, the unflinching servant cleaning up his bumbling sire's messes, to the point of possibly even disregarding Kinzo's thoughts on the matter. (side thought - does Japan have anything as emblematic of that sort of thing as Wodehouse was to Western media? I see magical butlers a lot in anime and similar, but don't know if they stem from the same point) There's very little insight on where Genji came from or what his upbringing was like, but he's very much presented as an enabler of the toxicity as opposed to a product of it, someone who allows things to go unchecked out of a belief that "it will all work out in the end". It didn't work out in the end and by the time Kinzo dies I think he's finally starting to realize that. There's definite remorse there - which is more than Nanjo shows - but honestly he had a lot more power in his hands to change things and didn't.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 23:14
|
|
|
KataraniSword posted:Just reading between the lines, Genji seems to be a very hard-set traditionalist who might put a little too much stock into the feudal ideal of a Wealthy Lord and His Infallable Retainer. Genji wants very hard to be Jeeves to Kinzo's Wooster, the unflinching servant cleaning up his bumbling sire's messes, to the point of possibly even disregarding Kinzo's thoughts on the matter. (side thought - does Japan have anything as emblematic of that sort of thing as Wodehouse was to Western media? I see magical butlers a lot in anime and similar, but don't know if they stem from the same point) Yeah I think it's pretty clear that Kinzo values Genji's friendship highly and while the onus is on Kinzo to not be doing terrible poo poo, I think things might have gone less bad if Genji actually went 'cut it the gently caress out, man' instead of coaching all his criticism in deflections.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2017 00:18
|
|
|
PetraCore posted:Yeah I think it's pretty clear that Kinzo values Genji's friendship highly and while the onus is on Kinzo to not be doing terrible poo poo, I think things might have gone less bad if Genji actually went 'cut it the gently caress out, man' instead of coaching all his criticism in deflections. Direct criticism is just not the done thing, especially not to a social superior.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2017 00:37
|
|
|
Question for wtichchat: How much does EP 8 change interpretation of earlier episodes, like EP 7 does? From the sounds of it most of the major mystery elements have been revealed (except for who Battler's mother is but I'm pretty sure we've got that one solved) but the finale can still bring out themes and conclusions that would be relevant to a full analysis of the story. Time being finite, if I'm going to do a thorough reread I want to do it with every possible tool available to me.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2017 00:46
|
|
|
You may as well wait, ZD, regardless of the answers to your specific question (which can't really be answered without coming across as a spoiler). Prof's already got ten updates in the backlog and I imagine we'll get started again soon.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2017 02:56
|
|
|
As an aside, ten updates in the backlog was when we started getting Episode 7 posts in here. So soon could mean Monday or a week from Monday if Prof wants a deeper backlog. edit: Or it can be today. MagusDraco fucked around with this message at 13:50 on Sep 22, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2017 03:03
|
|
|
 Good morning. This farewell is sad for me as it is for you. I've prepared a goodbye party for tonight. A game tournament will be included as well, so please feel free to participate. The difficulty is small, but not to be trifled with. Why don't you try joining in... now, at the end?  BGM: S/he End The big brother who would never return from that day 12 years in the past, and the little sister who waited all alone 12 years in the future. However, the big brother knew everything... understood everything. And the little sister knew nothing... understood nothing. So, no matter how much time passed, the little sister remained as the girl she had been 12 years before. She remained a six-year-old girl forever... Her sobs into her big brother's chest finally subsided... She quietly waited for his next words. After patting her head gently, the big brother fished around inside his shirt pocket. Then, he took 'that' out.   "...What is it...? A key...?"Battler took a large key attached to a necklace out of his pocket, then held it out to Ange. It was large enough to cover Battler's entire palm, and little Ange probably wouldn't even be able to wrap her hand all the way around it. The key glittered gold and had a beautiful, intricate design. Its weight alone made it clear that this key was something very important. Battler put the necklace around Ange's neck.  "This precious key is yours alone, Ange."  "The time to use it will come soon. When it does, you'll have to decide for yourself. Understand?"...Of course, she didn't have a clue what Battler was saying. But she did realize that he was telling her to take good care of this key. So, Ange nodded, at least in response to that part. In her hand, the key had felt heavy. However, now that it was around her neck, it felt as light as an ordinary necklace. How strange. "Okay, let's go." "Where...?"She had been sure that her brother was about to sit down. Just a second ago, he had said that he'd tell her what happened on Rokkenjima that day. She had thought that he would tell her here...  "On that day, on that island... What happened?" "Weren't you about to tell me that, Onii-chan...?" "Oh, I will. I'll tell the story and let you listen. However, it might be the kind of thing you can't really feel if you just hear about it from someone else." "...What do you mean...?" "What you really want... isn't to know what happened on that island on that day."...So, he does understand, after all. What happened on that island that day? Trying to answer that question was all I was capable of, so I wished for nothing more. But, if I could... I'd... want to go there. To that island. On that day. To Rokkenjima, on that day I couldn't go... To the Ushiromiya family mansion. Mom and Dad. All the cousins, all the relatives. And... everyone else. I want to go back... to that island on that day. So, I've always remained the way I was on that day. My heart and soul stopped, stuck as a six-year-old's forever...  "I know." "Mom, Dad, Onii-chan. Everyone. I want to go... to where everyone is..." "That's why... I've decided to invite you there." "...Huh...?" "I'm the Game Master now. Only those who know everything about the game board can open it up and invite pieces in. So, I'll invite you to come to the game board." "You'll... take me to Rokkenjima... on that day..." "That's right. I'll invite you to the Rokkenjima of 1986." "Will I be able to see everyone...?" "Of course." "Even though... my memory is vague, and I can't remember anyone's faces clearly..." "You'll remember soon enough. And, though it'll be a reunion after 12 years for you, it'll only have been a short gap for the rest of us. Everyone will welcome you. When you finally return from the distant future, everyone will welcome you." "Will I... be able to stay there forever...?"This way, I'll be able to be with everyone forever. This is the goal I'm supposed to reach...  "Ange, listen to me carefully."But Battler spoke in an admonishing tone. As though warning me that this dream would not be granted... "The Rokkenjima family conference usually ends after a single night. Because of the typhoon that day, the boat couldn't come, and it lasted two nights." "So, when the typhoon passes, I'll have to leave the island again...?" "...Not exactly. The decision is yours, Ange." "..." "You have to decide that yourself." I don't exist on that island on that day. It's a miracle just to be invited there like this. Just the two days before the typhoon passes. Just getting those two days to myself is already the sort of miracle that will never come again. If I'm greedy enough to ask for more, that faint miracle might vanish. Even though I thought this, my young heart, which was still six years old, wasn't satisfied with that short-lived miracle...  "I don't want to leave." "...I know." "I'll be with everyone forever. I'll stay with my family. Even if you tell me I have to head back, I'll stay on Rokkenjima." "You can stay or you can leave, but it's not as though one of those is 'the right choice'. That's not how it is, Ange." "...Even so, you'll let me choose...?" "Yes. That's what the key is for."Battler touched the glittering key that hung from Ange's neck.  "You don't have to decide now. The time to choose will come soon. When it does, you must use your honest heart to choose how you'll use that key." "..." "You don't need to listen to anything I tell you. You're free to decide however you like. However, if you're a good kid, and if you can trust your big brother..." "...If I can...?" "Then believe everything I tell you." "I'll... believe you..." "That will lead to the best choice for you. Listen to my words and believe everything I say. Can you do that?" "...I don't know." "That's good enough. Just believe whatever you want to. That's also for you to decide." "...If I don't believe you, will I wake up from this dream...?" "That won't happen. So don't worry." Her wish was to remain on that island on that day, together with her family, forever. She was afraid that, once she got her two miraculous days and accepted them, her brother might tell her to return to 12 years in the future all alone. "I already told you. There is no right decision. You can go, or you can stay. That's for you to decide. And you don't need to make your decision right now." "And no one will force me to make either choice...?" "Of course." "You won't tell me... to go back to the future...?" "...There is a choice that I want you to choose. I want you to reach that decision by yourself. So, though I hope you make a certain choice, I will respect your decision." "And I've already told you. I've already made my choice." "And I told you. Now isn't the time to choose." "When will it be time?" "The key will tell you."The large, gold key hung from Ange's neck. Her small hand held it tightly...  The book had a lock on it, and was sealed so that it could not be read without a key. Ange looked between the key hanging at her chest and the book on the altar.  "...Will this key unlock that book?" BGM: L&D Circulation His sudden, forceful response made Ange flinch. Battler, realizing he had scared Ange, softened his expression. "Come on, let's go. I'm inviting you to come back to October 4th, 1986." "Okay."Battler held out his hand, and Ange gripped it tightly. Then, they started walking.  That blinding light peeked in through the cracks around the door. The brother and sister began to walk through to the other side...    Video: Last Opening LET'S PLAY UMINEKO NO NAKU KORO NI, EPISODE 8: TWILIGHT OF THE GOLDEN WITCH
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2017 13:28
|
|
|
Oh, so the ending is really reliant on Ange. But does that mean she really was at Rokkenjima? Or is this one of those other fragment things, a timeline where Ange does make it to the conference? Regardless, maybe Ange being on the island changes things, even her mother's behavior. Either way, my predictions for the unhappy end are that either Ange chooses to stay in the past, her past, or this is a dying dream after she's shot from EP4.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2017 14:08
|
|
|
Ooh man, is staying on the island going to be a euphemism for suicide? Cause the best way to hang out with dead people forever is to also be a dead person.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2017 14:14
|
|
|
Well I guess I can stop black barring that just in case, since they've pretty much outright said it. So the choice is between staying on the island or not, eh... There are so many possible symbolic meanings for that I'm not sure which way that will be taken.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2017 15:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 15:35 |
|
|
Graylien posted:Ooh man, is staying on the island going to be a euphemism for suicide? Cause the best way to hang out with dead people forever is to also be a dead person. It could also mean a choice between staying obsessed and hung up on a past you can't change, or looking to the future and making the best of the hand you've been dealt. Which isn't a choice that applies exclusively to Ange.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2017 16:14
|
|