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GreyjoyBastard posted:what was the negative outcome of this vs not extending an olive branch? the negative outcome is the repubs take these concessions and then push for even further cuts or else they'll repeal ppaca. don't you remember how the debt-limit bullshit played out every time? repubs never stopped trying to pull that poo poo as opposed to republicans getting the full brunt of the blame for ruining people's healthcare just like they deserve (if they pass the repeal) or chickening out and doing nothing again and making a mockery of themselves
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Sep 20, 2017 21:25
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Condiv posted:the negative outcome is the repubs take these concessions and then push for even further cuts or else they'll repeal ppaca you think that a significant enough voting block is concerned with what the Democrats are doing in negotiations that don't finish to steal blame on healthcare
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Sep 20, 2017 21:26
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Condiv posted:the negative outcome is the repubs take these concessions and then push for even further cuts or else they'll repeal ppaca. don't you remember how the debt-limit bullshit played out every time? repubs never stopped trying to pull that poo poo Guess you're delighted with the current situation then, because the GOP has for now rejected the offer and now even the filthy centrists can say look at how insane and evil the GOP are! Also I'm increasingly sure that you don't actually know what was being negotiated for, hint: it wasn't an end to repeal attempts Second hint: it was something about an oversight regarding corporate subsidies Third hint: it was forcing Trump to pay cost sharing subsidies even if he would rather destroy the medical industry instead Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Sep 20, 2017 |
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Sep 20, 2017 21:26
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I thought nothing matters and the Democratic party will get blamed anyway? gently caress off condiv.
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Sep 20, 2017 21:27
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Condiv posted:the negative outcome is the repubs take these concessions and then push for even further cuts or else they'll repeal ppaca. don't you remember how the debt-limit bullshit played out every time? repubs never stopped trying to pull that poo poo This isn't Civilization. There isn't a button the Republicans can start slapping to enforce a proposed deal any more than there was when Republicans were getting bullshit into the ACA.
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Sep 20, 2017 21:27
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theflyingorc posted:You're assuming they wanted to actually reach an agreement, or that this wasn't part of a list of random ideas they sent out to make what they really wanted them to pick to sound more reasonable, or or or they shouldn't have advertised it as such then, cause it just makes it look like they're ok with cutting ppaca at this point instead of doing them any favors republicans are loving themselves over plenty well trying to rip away healthcare from millions of americans, and dems should position themselves as the defenders of their healthcare, not willing to compromise on making healthcare worse for americans TGLT posted:As Grammarchist pointed out, they need McCain and Murkowski to stand strong to actually win here. McCain, with brain cancer, drove all the way across country to defend the honor of The Proper Way To Do Things in the most dramatic way he could. This poo poo apparently animates his antediluvian body to elbow drop McConnell. gently caress mccain. again, how many times has good faith by democrats been reciprocated by republicans?
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Sep 20, 2017 21:28
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There *ARE* no concessions. There never were. Until they're on a bill and the ink is dry the only place these things exist as actual 'concessions' is in the fevered minds of the "Republicans are bad, but Democrats Are The Worst" types. Edit: And the bill passes. Can't forget that bit.
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Sep 20, 2017 21:28
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Condiv posted:gently caress mccain. again, how many times has good faith by democrats been reciprocated by republicans? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWeayFHsH90 edit: And it really has to be reiterated, like it or not they do in fact need McCain. At least until Murkowski comes out as a hard no, if she does. It loving sucks but that's just how it is, they need to keep 3 Republicans from voting against it and McCain and Murkowski are the only ones possible to convince that aren't already hard nos. TGLT fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Sep 20, 2017 |
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Sep 20, 2017 21:29
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Guess you're delighted with the current situation then, because the GOP has for now rejected the offer and now even the filthy centrists can say look at how insane and evil the GOP are! i'm not delighted that the republicans are trying to rip away healthcare from so many people. i want more healthcare for more people. that being said, i see no benefit to compromising with republicans cause they have never once been shown to negotiate or compromise in good faith and our compromises have only ended up hurting us.
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Sep 20, 2017 21:30
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Condiv posted:they shouldn't have advertised it as such then, cause it just makes it look like they're ok with cutting ppaca at this point instead of doing them any favors Again, there's a bajillion outside reasons to do it and never intend for it to actually go through. It could all be performative motions for McCain for all we know. Without it ever seriously being floated, nobody should care
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Sep 20, 2017 21:30
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i don't think he was reciprocating any good faith there. why do you think he was? i think he was spooked at all the people cheering his death, and was trying to preserve his legacy, and hopefully the same thing happens again
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Sep 20, 2017 21:31
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Condiv posted:i think he was spooked at all the people cheering his death
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Sep 20, 2017 21:33
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Taerkar posted:There *ARE* no concessions. There never were. Until they're on a bill and the ink is dry the only place these things exist as actual 'concessions' is in the fevered minds of the "Republicans are bad, but Democrats Are The Worst" types. Condiv thinks saying hi to Republicans is deserving of a primary.
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Sep 20, 2017 21:33
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Taerkar posted:There *ARE* no concessions. There never were. Until they're on a bill and the ink is dry the only place these things exist as actual 'concessions' is in the fevered minds of the "Republicans are bad, but Democrats Are The Worst" types. who believes this? and schumer's spokesman said there were concessions. dunno why you disagree with chuck schumer on what chuck schumer was doing
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Sep 20, 2017 21:34
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Condiv posted:i don't think he was reciprocating any good faith there. why do you think he was? Because he had been consistently complaining about The Process up to this point and then, afterwards, put out a real obviously pre-prepared statement about how this failed to live up to The Process. And yeah that probably is because he's concerned about his legacy and how the world will view him after he dies. So loving what, if apparently he finally cares enough about The Process to actually roll out to defend it then I'm fine with Schumer blowing smoke up his rear end.
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Sep 20, 2017 21:34
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Condiv why is an entire thread dedicated to how awful the Dems are not enough for you?
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Sep 20, 2017 21:35
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Condiv posted:who believes this? Matt Parker and Trey Stone
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Sep 20, 2017 21:35
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theflyingorc posted:hahahahahahahahahhaahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaahahah thats very stupid, mccain never saw a negative word likewise, i think "mccain saw the dems' good faith and his heart grew three sizes that day" is very stupid dunno why you think that's actually plausible considering the republicans' behavior
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Sep 20, 2017 21:35
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Condiv why is an entire thread dedicated to how awful the Dems are not enough for you? what's your point? this discussion is on topic for USPOL, so why does it bother you that it's being discussed? TGLT posted:Because he had been consistently complaining about The Process up to this point and then, afterwards, put out a real obviously pre-prepared statement about how this failed to live up to The Process. And yeah that probably is because he's concerned about his legacy and how the world will view him after he dies. So loving what, if apparently he finally cares enough about The Process to actually roll out to defend it then I'm fine with Schumer blowing smoke up his rear end. i'm not, because dems have done too much good-faith outreach just to be stabbed in the back for quite a while now. let mccain come to the "let's not hurt millions of people" point of view on his own if he's actually a moderate republican and not a monster. i'm legit worried concessions like these would just be the start, just like all the concessions dems have made in the past have been answered with repubs loving them over (merrick garland ring a bell?) Condiv fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Sep 20, 2017 |
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Sep 20, 2017 21:38
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You have an entire thread for this whining you fuckwad.
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Sep 20, 2017 21:40
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Condiv posted:who believes this? Very few people that will actually admit it. But based upon what they say and how they focus their attention quite a number of people. quote:and schumer's spokesman said there were concessions. dunno why you disagree with chuck schumer on what chuck schumer was doing Because I would check the sky after any politician's spokesperson said the sky was blue. They're all playing parts in the Kabuki Theater that is political press releases.
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Sep 20, 2017 21:43
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Taerkar posted:Very few people that will actually admit it. But based upon what they say and how they focus their attention quite a number of people. who the hell is the audience for that particular piece of theater
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Sep 20, 2017 21:44
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Mustached Demon posted:You have an entire thread for this whining you fuckwad. sorry man, it turns out despite their own best efforts the democratic party remains an element of US politics
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Sep 20, 2017 21:44
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Raskolnikov38 posted:who the hell is the audience for that particular piece of theater The portion of this country that still thinks that bipartisanship is a thing?
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Sep 20, 2017 21:46
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Raskolnikov38 posted:who the hell is the audience for that particular piece of theater The refutation of the future talking point that Democrats refused to play ball presumably.
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Sep 20, 2017 21:46
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Taerkar posted:Very few people that will actually admit it. But based upon what they say and how they focus their attention quite a number of people. that's a stupid assumption to make. i focus more on the dems' flaws than the republicans because the republicans are monsters and i want the dems to be better so they can beat them back. i do not think compromises like these help the dems at all, and are actually foolish considering how many times they've backfired in the past, and i would like the dems to develop a spine and fight back hard against the republicans quote:Because I would check the sky after any politician's spokesperson said the sky was blue. They're all playing parts in the Kabuki Theater that is political press releases. well, if it was just political posturing to win points it was a bad idea cause it doesn't win any points and just makes schumer look like he cares less about protecting ppaca than he should Condiv fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Sep 20, 2017 |
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Sep 20, 2017 21:47
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Taerkar posted:The portion of this country that still thinks that bipartisanship is a thing? what portion of the country is that? last i saw, everyone hates the idea of ppaca being cut or repealed, which was why republicans were hiding from their town halls. further, the burning need for bipartisanship didn't turn out people enough for democrats to win despite the repubs being giant obstructionists on every issue Trabisnikof posted:The refutation of the future talking point that Democrats refused to play ball presumably. they'll just claim that anyway just like they claim democrats like obama were socialists. republicans are unconcerned with speaking the truth at any time, and trump leading the pack should make that p clear
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Sep 20, 2017 21:49
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Trabisnikof posted:The refutation of the future talking point that Democrats refused to play ball presumably. Also a giant spiked club if god forbid Trump does in fact poo poo all over the ACA market. "We gave the GOP a chance to stop the manbaby for the good of everyone and instead they tried to pass an evil murderous bill and couldn't even do that."
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Sep 20, 2017 21:50
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Ze Pollack posted:sorry man, it turns out despite their own best efforts the democratic party remains an element of US politics Oh sorry I shouldn't disturb the same loving conversation that comes up every few pages with nothing new added. Carry on.
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Sep 20, 2017 21:50
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Who wants another "Get incredibly mad at rich people" series of interviews with "Holy poo poo, how can you think that?" quotes? Wealth is a prison. Also poverty. Actually, pretty much just all of human existence. Seriously though, gently caress those people. They're super myopic and have no grounding in reality.
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Sep 20, 2017 21:53
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Condiv posted:what portion of the country is that? last i saw, everyone hates the idea of ppaca being cut or repealed, which was why republicans were hiding from their town halls. further, the burning need for bipartisanship didn't turn out people enough for democrats to win despite the repubs being giant obstructionists on every issue A sizable portion of this country wants That Horrible Thing Obamacare repealed. They just actively hate the current proposals because the Republicans can't throw together something that isn't horrible without actually doing some of the things they claimed to strongly oppose. quote:they'll just claim that anyway just like they claim democrats like obama were socialists. republicans are unconcerned with speaking the truth at any time, and trump leading the pack should make that p clear The word that brings rage to you, Centrist, is still a significant slice of the Not Republicans voting bloc.
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Sep 20, 2017 21:53
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Condiv posted:i'm not, because dems have done too much good-faith outreach just to be stabbed in the back for quite a while now. let mccain come to the "let's not hurt millions of people" point of view on his own if he's actually a moderate republican and not a monster. i'm legit worried concessions like these would just be the start, just like all the concessions dems have made in the past have been answered with repubs loving them over (merrick garland ring a bell?) Condiv you can't backstab some one if they never actually put themselves out on the line. Schumer's claim holds about as much weight as when Republicans offered amendments to the ACA or talked about how much they wanted that process to be "more bipartisan" (somehow). It's free bullshit to score points somewhere, and here it's with McCain. And I don't give a poo poo about his conscience or whatever, I don't care if McCain is a good person when it comes to this bill. If there's a way to get him to vote the right way or even just make that more likely, and especially if it involves not actually paying a price, then Dems should do it.
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Sep 20, 2017 21:54
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Condiv posted:likewise, i think "mccain saw the dems' good faith and his heart grew three sizes that day" is very stupid that doesn't have to be part of it, that was a random aside I threw out, and I'm still not the one acting like political theater doesn't exist and that Democrats can only do what is true in their hearts
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Sep 20, 2017 21:56
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Taerkar posted:The portion of this country that still thinks that bipartisanship is a thing? So a bunch of delusional people who watched the west wing too much? I have a secret for you, that show was never that popular. Liberals like them are a cancer and within then years they will be reduced to a few poli sci professors in college.
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Sep 20, 2017 21:57
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Taerkar posted:A sizable portion of this country wants That Horrible Thing Obamacare repealed. so why help the republicans at all? if the republicans are pissing everyone off then let them? quote:The word that brings rage to you, Centrist, is still a significant slice of the Not Republicans voting bloc. i thought centrists voted not republican cause they were turned off by republicans' racism (and rightfully so). are you saying centrists would flock to republicans if dems didn't compromise on everything with the repubs? TGLT posted:Condiv you can't backstab some one if they never actually put themselves out on the line. Schumer's claim holds about as much weight as when Republicans offered amendments to the ACA or talked about how much they wanted that process to be "more bipartisan" (somehow). It's free bullshit to score points somewhere, and here it's with McCain. And I don't give a poo poo about his conscience or whatever, I don't care if McCain is a good person when it comes to this bill. If there's a way to get him to vote the right way or even just make that more likely, and especially if it involves not actually paying a price, then Dems should do it. it's not free bullshit cause it makes schumer look less devoted to ppaca than he should be. it's not a good message and it gives republicans ammo that poo poo like copper plans and more waivers for states are a good thing theflyingorc posted:that doesn't have to be part of it, that was a random aside I threw out, and I'm still not the one acting like political theater doesn't exist and that Democrats can only do what is true in their hearts if dems are practicing political theater then they suck at it, cause this is the exact same thing they've done a ton of times before and it hasn't won them anything (in fact we have less power than we have had in a long long time) Condiv fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Sep 20, 2017 |
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Sep 20, 2017 21:59
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Condiv posted:so why help the republicans at all? if the republicans are pissing everyone off then let them?  Which is why a good socilaist wants to build a society where liberalism cannot thrive. Seriously whats with all the liberals in this thread?
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Sep 20, 2017 22:02
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Crowsbeak posted:So a bunch of delusional people who watched the west wing too much? I have a secret for you, that show was never that popular. Liberals like them are a cancer and within then years they will be reduced to a few poli sci professors in college. Tons of people want bipartisanship - go watch the last SNL before the election, where Trump and Clinton "put away the nasty fighting" and just went and ran around New York. It isn't a thing among the politically informed, but it's a huge thing among the less informed population. Condiv posted:so why help the republicans at all? if the republicans are pissing everyone off then let them? quote:i thought centrists voted not republican cause they were turned off by republicans' racism (and rightfully so). are you saying centrists would flock to republicans if dems didn't compromise on everything with the repubs?
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Sep 20, 2017 22:02
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theflyingorc posted:Tons of people want bipartisanship - go watch the last SNL before the election, where Trump and Clinton "put away the nasty fighting" and just went and ran around New York. It isn't a thing among the politically informed, but it's a huge thing among the less informed population. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0 Because I actually know some of the less informed. THey want someone they can trust. Not some limp wristed person who at the first sign of trouble says they want to discus their problems and come to a decision or whatever horseshit. I suggest you stop watching SNL and the West Wing and talk to some real people.
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Sep 20, 2017 22:05
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theflyingorc posted:hmmmm...i don't see any republicans that were helped, do you? yes, when schumer said that copper plans and expanded waivers were concessions he'd be willing to make. those things should definitely not happen, and saying that he's willing to make those concessions gives ideological ground to republicans on those issues quote:centrists exist that both lean left and lean right are we supposed to compromise to the right to attract them? that doesn't sound like a good idea considering this country has drifted so far right we have nazis marching in our streets
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Sep 20, 2017 22:05
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Condiv posted:it's not free bullshit cause it makes schumer look less devoted to ppaca than he should be. it's not a good message and it gives republicans ammo that poo poo like copper plans and more waivers for states are a good thing Schumer won his last election with 70% of the vote. If anyone is best suited to fake an olive branch to convince McCain there's totally The Process over in this pasture, even if it means agitating some people who mistake "we totally swear we were thinking of some compromises, prom-sies" for an actual unbreakable blood oath, then it is Schumer. *sighs longingly while gently rubbing a picture of the MacMillan Pallet Estate* someday, my sweet frustration factory
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Sep 20, 2017 22:07
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