Absurd Alhazred posted:If you also count all the Jews that could become citizens but haven't, then they outnumber Palestinians by a wide margin. I actually think it's in incredibly poor taste as well as categorically stupid to juxtapose these as if they were similar.
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Sep 21, 2017 01:57
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tentative8e8op posted:Five million of those people are very effectively disenfranchised right now. Yes. And that is less than the number of enfranchised people in Israel plus the Occupied Territories. Disinterested posted:I actually think it's in incredibly poor taste as well as categorically stupid to juxtapose these as if they were similar. Inasmuch as they're relevant to a political solution in Israel and the Occupied Territories, they are similar enough. But if the only equitable solution involves all Palestinians and only the Jews you think are worthy of being in historic Palestine being enfranchised (are there any?) with the rest poo poo out of luck, then I think you're going to stay disappointed.
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Sep 21, 2017 02:13
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Absurd Alhazred posted:If you also count all the Jews that could become citizens but haven't, then they outnumber Palestinians by a wide margin. What kind of psycho colonialist considers all Jews everywhere as automatic Israelis that are comparable to the palestianians, what kind of nonsense is this. hey newsflash:- A WHITE AMERICAN OR BRITISH OR EUROPEAN JEW LIVING IN HIS HOME COUNTRY IS NOT THE SAME SITUATION AS A PALESTINIAN FAMILY WHO HAD TO LEAVE PALESTINE BECAUSE OF YOUR lovely GRANPA KICKED THEM OUT BY FORCE. AN AMERICAN HAS OPTIONS, THE PALESTINIAN DOESN'T. Dont worry, the right to return for Palestinians is an inalienable right according to human rights charters, whether your loving like it or not. Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Sep 21, 2017 |
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Sep 21, 2017 02:19
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I think I see where Alhazred is going here. Al Saqr (and, you know, everyone else in the thread), how would you feel about e.g. a one state solution with 100% full right of return that also has the current non-resident Jew immigration policies? This strikes me as a really interesting argument in terms of, uh, talking to Jewish supremacists or slightly less unpalatably those who are worried about a one state solution leading to ethnic cleansing of Jews: turns out, if Alhazred is accurately describing things, that it could feasibly lead to a Jewish minority anyway, disaster avoided  Related question: how important is it that Israel in whatever form be forced to discard its Jew-focused immigration policy?
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Sep 21, 2017 02:24
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Al-Saqr posted:What kind of psycho colonialist considers all Jews everywhere as automatic Israelis that are comparable to the palestianians, what kind of nonsense is this. Any Jew can take advantage of the Law of Return, which Israel, as a sovereign state, has as part of its immigration law, so they can come in, and make themselves relevant. Much like Saudi Arabia is a sovereign state and can decide not to give citizenship to Palestinians in order to "help" them retain their Right of Return, and keep them disenfranchised, and keep blaming Israel for this in perpetuity.
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Sep 21, 2017 02:34
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Half of Israeli Jews are Mizrahim who were largely the victims of Arab ethnic cleansing in the past century, which is why they vote in lockstep for pro-war parties now. A lot of good those charters did the Circassians, Armenians, Greek Cypriots, Bosnians, Punjabis, etc... No poo poo supporting dictatorships is playing with fire, but that's inevitably what happens when you take diplomacy off the table. E.g., North Korea behaved a lot more sanely during the Clinton years. Engagement with any state produces a more moderate stance. Those dictatorships look entrenched, and really what difference will it make on this topic if somehow more Morsis and Erdogans win power and make a bunch of empty gestures? VideoGameVet posted:Which ended up being WORSE for Israel in the long run. Taking out Iran's main rival, who could have seen the consequences? Netanyahu wasn't the PM then though, it was the realist Sharon who opposed the Iraq war. This idea that Israel pushed for war (as opposed to American neoconservatives who mistakenly thought they were doing Israel a favor) is laughable. The Israeli defense establishment would very happily deal with repressive dictators as their neighbors until the end of time.
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Sep 21, 2017 02:45
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Kim Jong Il posted:
Realtalk why do you dislike Morsi? There are some good reasons (maybe not compared to Sisi), I'm just curious which if any you cite.
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Sep 21, 2017 02:50
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I think I see where Alhazred is going here. I think that what you're describing is perfectly valid. the whole struggle of the Palestinians was about the fact that the political ideology and apartheid system of Zionism is racially and religiously supremacist and ethnically cleansed them and is making them live under horrible oppression while wholesale replacing them. That's the main problem. I think Jewish people like any other group should have immigration rights and to go an live and do whatever they want so long as the Palestinian people have full freedom and live where they want and not be kicked out of their homes and not treated like animals. It's never been simply about foreign Jews moving to Palestine, it was about colonialism and racism and apartheid and wholesale ethnic cleansing. I think every Arab Jewish Person who were harassed out of their homes in the Arab world deserve a right of return themselves to their countries of origin. Which is why it's vital as part of the struggle for freedom and democracy in the middle east and part of liberating Palestine is to make it so everyone and all minorities have equal human rights to weaken Israels Image. Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 03:03 on Sep 21, 2017 |
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Sep 21, 2017 02:57
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Yes. And that is less than the number of enfranchised people in Israel plus the Occupied Territories.
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Sep 21, 2017 02:59
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Yes. And that is less than the number of enfranchised people in Israel plus the Occupied Territories. Yeah ok we can handwave away moral questions because political expediency prevents their resolution. Oh wait that means we have to close the thread because that applies to every single loving problem related to Israel and Palestine.
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Sep 21, 2017 03:05
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R. Mute posted:Congratulations on continuing to make the most tedious of points on a regular basis, absurd What's wrong with tedious? Al Saqr:  We are basically on the same page on this when you aren't understandably angryposting, I think. I am basically alright with foreign Jews receiving citizenship and am strongly supportive of whatever Palestinian right of return can be made to happen.
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Sep 21, 2017 03:07
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Any Jew can take advantage of the Law of Return, which Israel, as a sovereign state, has as part of its immigration law, so they can come in, and make themselves relevant. Much like Saudi Arabia is a sovereign state and can decide not to give citizenship to Palestinians in order to "help" them retain their Right of Return, and keep them disenfranchised, and keep blaming Israel for this in perpetuity. You're conflating could with should. Any Jew could theoretically become a citizen of Israel. Palestinian refugees should be citizens of Israel under a one state solution and would be if not for war crimes committed against them. Also in terms of the topic under discussion, Jewish people who haven't moved to Israel shouldn't matter because presumably they still wouldn't want to move to Israel and so would not effect the overall population skew. Kim Jong Il posted:Netanyahu wasn't the PM then though, it was the realist Sharon who opposed the Iraq war. This idea that Israel pushed for war (as opposed to American neoconservatives who mistakenly thought they were doing Israel a favor) is laughable. The Israeli defense establishment would very happily deal with repressive dictators as their neighbors until the end of time. You are trying to rewrite history. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-to-us-dont-delay-iraq-attack/ Just one example. Can offer plenty more if you are actually going to try to make this argument.
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Sep 21, 2017 07:54
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Rather than trying to get the buck to stop in Israel, Arab states should instead conquer some land from some other ethnic group X and create a Palestinian state there. Then group X and its allies can go and conquer land from group Y and establish a state for group X. The cycle can finally come to a just end when Germany is conquered and turned into an ethno-centric state for group Z.
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Sep 21, 2017 09:58
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qkkl posted:Rather than trying to get the buck to stop in Israel, Arab states should instead conquer some land from some other ethnic group X and create a Palestinian state there. Then group X and its allies can go and conquer land from group Y and establish a state for group X. The cycle can finally come to a just end when Germany is conquered and turned into an ethno-centric state for group Z. More political solutions from the Simpsons should be used for real, IMO https://youtu.be/P9yruQM1ggc
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Sep 21, 2017 10:04
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Realtalk why do you dislike Morsi? I'm mixed on him, but I think you were misreading my point. I was saying that he was a Muslim Brotherhood member, who won in a democratic election. Who, once in office, proceeded to do a lot of empty gestures on Israel while substantially changing not much. He of course had a better relationship with Hamas, but it didn't substantially lead to anything. You could argue that his hands were tied because of the military establishment, but I think it's silly to think that widespread democracy would be a panacea for the Palestinian cause. We're 15 years past everyone thinking that it would be a panacea for Zionism. In reality the two issues have nothing in common.
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Sep 21, 2017 17:41
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Kim Jong Il posted:Half of Israeli Jews are Mizrahim who were largely the victims of Arab ethnic cleansing in the past century, which is why they vote in lockstep for pro-war parties now. A lot of good those charters did the Circassians, Armenians, Greek Cypriots, Bosnians, Punjabis, etc... So just Netanyahu, testifying to Congress what a great idea the Iraq War was. Nice.
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Sep 21, 2017 17:57
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Who was dead in Israeli politics for a decade. You won't find any disagreement from me that he is a pathetic figure who has done disastrous damage to Israel. However, the actual PM of Israel at the time, Ariel Sharon, while trying to avoid criticizing Bush, counseled against the war.
Kim Jong Il fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 00:08
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ariel played september 11 like a pro, he did everything right securing america and israel's relationship. what a man! unfortunately israel is a monstrous golem of religious extremism and reactionary viciousness against anyone lower than us on the international pecking order but ariel only ever had one aim, which was to protect the jews from extermination over the course of his lifetime
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Sep 22, 2017 02:01
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oh ariel, poor ariel, who was so great and terrible, and who was given the ultimate punishment and reward that few earn: judgment within his mortal lifespan, conviction and sentencing and a long unimaginably awful sentence all delivered personally to him by the almighty
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Sep 22, 2017 02:06
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i love you ariel
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Sep 22, 2017 02:06
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the only true lion of the 21st century, though many have claimed the title and many will claim it yet
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Sep 22, 2017 02:07
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Kim Jong Il posted:I'm mixed on him, but I think you were misreading my point. I was saying that he was a Muslim Brotherhood member, who won in a democratic election. Who, once in office, proceeded to do a lot of empty gestures on Israel while substantially changing not much. He of course had a better relationship with Hamas, but it didn't substantially lead to anything. You could argue that his hands were tied because of the military establishment, but I think it's silly to think that widespread democracy would be a panacea for the Palestinian cause. We're 15 years past everyone thinking that it would be a panacea for Zionism. In reality the two issues have nothing in common. Oh, I see. I did misunderstand where you were pointed. I wonder if this is a useful argument to have in the back pocket in support of Arab / Middle Eastern democratization (when talking to the wildly pro Israel).
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Sep 22, 2017 02:09
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Any Jew can take advantage of the Law of Return, which Israel, as a sovereign state, has as part of its immigration law, so they can come in, and make themselves relevant. Much like Saudi Arabia is a sovereign state and can decide not to give citizenship to Palestinians in order to "help" them retain their Right of Return, and keep them disenfranchised, and keep blaming Israel for this in perpetuity. Actually this is everyone else's fault for not letting you stay with them. Toodles!
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Sep 22, 2017 10:29
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Absurd Alhazred posted:If you also count all the Jews that could become citizens but haven't, then they outnumber Palestinians by a wide margin. The big difference between Palestinian refugees and the entire Jewish diaspora for this issue is that the latter have had the opportunity to go to the region for decades and haven't, and it's unlikely a huge proportion of them would suddenly do so in large numbers if a settlement was reached. The Palestinian refugees on the other hand would be very likely to return if allowed. That's why the size of one population is much more relevant than the other.
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Sep 22, 2017 12:02
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I have a question about the Israeli ''Law of Return''. Specifically, how ''Jewish'' does one have to be to meet the criteria of the law? I am a British Citizen of around thirty years of age. My Paternal Grandfather (now deceased) was a Pole who ended up in Britain after fighting with the Free Polish forces during the Second World War. He, nor his parents were religious Jews (in fact, his Polish birth certificate has ''Protestant'' written on it). However, his surname (and consequently mine) is one that other Ashkenazi Jews share, or at least a version of it with a slightly different spelling. As such, could he potentially be considered an Ashkenazi Jew in a non-religious and ethnic sense, and could this identity be conferred to myself in the context of the Law of Return? If I was to submit to a genetic test that demonstrated a sufficient Ashkenazi genetic inheritance, would this help my case? Finally, would having a desired profession, trade or set of qualifications help? I am a fully qualified Electrician with NVQ2 and 3 and Technical Certificate in Electrical Installation, with City & Guilds 2394, 2395 and (from next month) 2396 vocational qualifications. I am also currently pursuing an AutoCAD qualification specifically related to the design of building utilities, and should receive an ''Accredited AutoCAD User'' certificate in two months. Finally, I also possess a BTEC and Higher National Diploma in Electrical Engineering, which is the equivalent of two years of a BSc. Lord_Adonis fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 20:55
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Lord_Adonis posted:I have a question about the Israeli ''Law of Return''. Specifically, how ''Jewish'' does one have to be to meet the criteria of the law? I am a British Citizen of around thirty years of age. My Paternal Grandfather (now deceased) was a Pole who ended up in Britain after fighting with the Free Polish forces during the Second World War. He, nor his parents were religious Jews (in fact, his Polish birth certificate has ''Protestant'' written on it). However, his surname (and consequently mine) is one that other Ashkenazi Jews share, or at least a version of it with a slightly different spelling. Someone else will have to back me up on this, but I think you have to be Jewish through your mother's side to be considered Jewish in a religious sense. That being said, having useful skills might make up for that.
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Sep 22, 2017 21:04
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An aquaintance of mine had no Jewish heritage whatsoever but "discovered" religion and obtained Israeli citizenship quite easily.
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Sep 22, 2017 21:08
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It's one grandparent, although those with partial Jewish ancestry but not maternal ancestry will be wildly discriminated against due to the efforts of the Haredim. Genetic tests wouldn't be evidence, they'd have to have things like a marriage certificate or family tree. Oddly enough, the consensus is that Ariel Sharon's mother was a Russian convert, although Haredi obsession with Jewish ethnic purity wasn't as much of a thing until recently.
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Sep 22, 2017 21:10
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Ytlaya posted:Someone else will have to back me up on this, but I think you have to be Jewish through your mother's side to be considered Jewish in a religious sense. That being said, having useful skills might make up for that. Travelling to Israel as an expert worker and seeing what happens next might be more viable. Lord_Adonis posted:I have a question about the Israeli ''Law of Return''.
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Sep 22, 2017 21:13
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Xander77 posted:Being the grandson of a Jew, on either side, is enough to qualify for Right of Return, but it would have to be a bit more solid than "Ashkenazi name, but no documents". I asked a friend of mine with Israeli citizenship, and he said he thinks you would need a letter from a rabbi stating your Jewish heritage and read about a situation in an article with a soccer player whose dad was Jewish and did this.
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Sep 22, 2017 21:16
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Ytlaya posted:I asked a friend of mine with Israeli citizenship, and he said he thinks you would need a letter from a rabbi stating your Jewish heritage and read about a situation in an article with a soccer player whose dad was Jewish and did this. 
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Sep 22, 2017 21:32
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Kim Jong Il posted:Who was dead in Israeli politics for a decade. You won't find any disagreement from me that he is a pathetic figure who has done disastrous damage to Israel. However, the actual PM of Israel at the time, Ariel Sharon, while trying to avoid criticizing Bush, counseled against the war. That's a claim that isn't even supported by your own link. If you read it you'll see he counselled against occupation not war. 'Sharon acknowledged that Saddam Hussein was an “acute threat” to the Middle East and that he believed Saddam possessed weapons of mass destruction'. Although it also claims that Sharon said he would not push one way or another for or against the war, we know that ended up being a lie because he did push for it. Not only that but the link offers a simplistic assessment based on a single meeting. Basically in early 2002 Israel had no real issues with war with Iraq but wanted the focus on Iran if they could arrange it. Later in the year they were giving it full-throated support to war with iraq e.g. "Sharon urges America to bring down Saddam". Later on in 2002 and by early 2003 they were still fully behind war with Iraq but toned down the public rhetoric because there were people increasingly identifying Israel as a key impetus behind the war and Israel didn't want that association. Other ministers including Peres, who was Foreign Minister at the time, also pushed for war with Iraq. That's not to mention the [url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2003/12/05/israel-shares-blame-on-iraq-intelligence-report-says/fa34cc5e-8a18-4faa-9615-19a899f99fda/?utm_term=.322ca5f640a9]false intelligence that was provided by Israel and helped prompt the war or it's long-term association and lobbying of the neoconservatives who pushed for this war.
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Sep 23, 2017 08:17
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Lord_Adonis posted:I have a question about the Israeli ''Law of Return''. Specifically, how ''Jewish'' does one have to be to meet the criteria of the law? I am a British Citizen of around thirty years of age. My Paternal Grandfather (now deceased) was a Pole who ended up in Britain after fighting with the Free Polish forces during the Second World War. He, nor his parents were religious Jews (in fact, his Polish birth certificate has ''Protestant'' written on it). However, his surname (and consequently mine) is one that other Ashkenazi Jews share, or at least a version of it with a slightly different spelling. Just contact the jewish agency, if your ancestors have any documentation proving that they were jews (such as being listed in some synagogue a hundred years ago) they can probably find it and will look for it on your behest. If your ancestors converted to christianity it might be an issue though, who knows. As others said, you can always convert to Judaism if coming here is that important to you, otherwise contact the ministry of immigration I guess.
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Sep 23, 2017 11:37
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Lord_Adonis posted:I am a fully qualified Electrician with NVQ2 and 3 and Technical Certificate in Electrical Installation, with City & Guilds 2394, 2395 and (from next month) 2396 vocational qualifications. I am also currently pursuing an AutoCAD qualification specifically related to the design of building utilities, and should receive an ''Accredited AutoCAD User'' certificate in two months. Finally, I also possess a BTEC and Higher National Diploma in Electrical Engineering, which is the equivalent of two years of a BSc.
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Sep 23, 2017 12:09
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I'm kind of surprised that to be "officially" Jewish your mom needs to be Jewish, considering that genetic tests have shown that the initial Ashkenazi population mostly grew from Jewish men marrying non-Jewish women.
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Sep 23, 2017 12:19
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qkkl posted:I'm kind of surprised that to be "officially" Jewish your mom needs to be Jewish, considering that genetic tests have shown that the initial Ashkenazi population mostly grew from Jewish men marrying non-Jewish women. emanresu tnuocca posted:Just contact the jewish agency, if your ancestors have any documentation proving that they were jews (such as being listed in some synagogue a hundred years ago) they can probably find it and will look for it on your behest. quote:As others said, you can always convert to Judaism if coming here is that important to you, otherwise contact the ministry of immigration I guess. Xander77 fucked around with this message at 12:35 on Sep 23, 2017 |
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Sep 23, 2017 12:27
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If my only Jewish descendant is one grandparent, and I have a child with a non-Jew, will that child be considered Jewish? If so, this idea of "Jewishness" seems pointless since it would essentially be the one-drop rule where you could be 1/1024th Jewish, but still be "officially" Jewish because one of your past descendants was Jewish.
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Sep 23, 2017 14:32
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qkkl posted:If my only Jewish descendant is one grandparent, and I have a child with a non-Jew, will that child be considered Jewish? If so, this idea of "Jewishness" seems pointless since it would essentially be the one-drop rule where you could be 1/1024th Jewish, but still be "officially" Jewish because one of your past descendants was Jewish. Conversely, there's the State of Israel's definition of a person eligible for the Right of Return - someone who had at least one Jewish ancestor (up to and limited to grandparents) and that someone's immediate family / dependents (so you can immigrate with your children, and you can join your parents who had immigrated to Israel, but you're not entitled to immigrate as the grand-grandchild of a Jew). PS - Descendants - children. Ancestors - parents.
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Sep 23, 2017 15:48
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Xander77 posted:I also have an Israeli citizenship. And I'm familiar with the subject of immigration to Israel. Yeah, I didn't mean that as a counter against what you said, but just a "here is an example I heard of a situation where someone with Jew ancestry but no documentation was able to have their "Jewishness" established for the purposes of emigrating to Israel."
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Sep 23, 2017 22:07
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qkkl posted:If my only Jewish descendant is one grandparent, and I have a child with a non-Jew, will that child be considered Jewish? If so, this idea of "Jewishness" seems pointless since it would essentially be the one-drop rule where you could be 1/1024th Jewish, but still be "officially" Jewish because one of your past descendants was Jewish. it's like, we know. that's the point.
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Sep 23, 2017 23:38
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