|
fog boar posted:tldr: I've been editing 4e for a while based on popular ideas like DTAS and gradenko's bonus chart and other stuff that's been talked about here for years This all sounds cool and good and pretty much exactly what I would want from a 4e successor, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter! PM me here, or if you're on Discord i'm pd0t#1282
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 23:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 06:06 |
|
|
P.d0t posted:This all sounds cool and good and pretty much exactly what I would want from a 4e successor, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter! Yea same here. Sounds pretty great. I'm Spite#4312 on discord
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2017 23:14
|
|
|
Ooh, I want in on the 4E improvement train. Turnips#7054 on Discord.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 03:16
|
|
|
Heck yeah PM me with that
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 03:41
|
|
|
I am interested. PM me too!
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 03:46
|
|
|
I think maybe just posting a link in thread might be expedient. Or PM me.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 03:47
|
|
|
So, I'm running a 4E games for some newish roleplayers who have mainly played 5E. I have been building their characters through the Character Builder to save time and effort. A new player sent me this as a character concept:quote:[I] had the idea of using a Fighter that utilises lots of fire in his battles. Not with magic but with Torches, Oils, Alcohol tinctures and whatnot. I was even wondering if I could coat the sword with some oil for extra fire damage. I feel like there are some ways to approach this concept using reflavouring and maybe some kind of hybrid character. It probably won't be super optimised, but since the players are new it shouldn't be a huge deal. Anyone got any ideas on how to approach this? I have asked what being a "fighter" means to him in this context, but I haven't got an answer yet. Edit: I was thinking reflavouring Dragonborn for a fire breath weapon, Artificer has some relevant stuff, or maybe swordmage.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 03:59
|
|
|
I think that's going to be more of an Artificer
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 04:08
|
|
|
fog boar posted:tldr: I've been editing 4e for a while based on popular ideas like DTAS and gradenko's bonus chart and other stuff that's been talked about here for years I'd also like to see this, please.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 04:47
|
|
|
thefakenews posted:So, I'm running a 4E games for some newish roleplayers who have mainly played 5E. I have been building their characters through the Character Builder to save time and effort. A new player sent me this as a character concept: There's also all sorts of consumables that do some fire stuff, maybe let him take a feat to find/make X of those a day for free. Not CB friendly, but I might make a set of power-swap feats that are just artificer/wizard/sorcerer/swordmage powers reskinned. Like, if they were buying the pizza every week and Had To Be A Fighter.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 04:54
|
|
|
aegof posted:There's also all sorts of consumables that do some fire stuff, maybe let him take a feat to find/make X of those a day for free. He seems to just want to play a fighter but coat his sword in alchemist's fire to get an encounter long damage bonus. Is there an item that does something like this that is accessible to a level 1 character? I'm a bit wary of him turning a one use alchemist's fire into an encounter long buff, but he insists it should work that way. Maybe I'm overestimating the benefit (I probably am).
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 05:06
|
|
|
thefakenews posted:He seems to just want to play a fighter but coat his sword in alchemist's fire to get an encounter long damage bonus. Is there an item that does something like this that is accessible to a level 1 character? I'm a bit wary of him turning a one use alchemist's fire into an encounter long buff, but he insists it should work that way. Maybe I'm overestimating the benefit (I probably am). Oil of Red Flame- 125gp Level 8 Uncommon Item Minor Action Effect: You coat a weapon with this oil. The next time you hit a creature with that weapon before the end of the encounter, that creature also takes ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends). If your player wants to go down that route, it's going to cost them heavily and the loot treadmill is going to grind them up. The other issue they're going to run into depends on how long you intend on going, but if you break out of heroic they're gonna find a goodly portion of monsters are resistant/immune to fire damage and they'll need to multi-class to something arcane to start taking the feats to bypass that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 05:15
|
|
|
thefakenews posted:So, I'm running a 4E games for some newish roleplayers who have mainly played 5E. I have been building their characters through the Character Builder to save time and effort. A new player sent me this as a character concept: Basically, reskinning is the name of the game here. If he wants to play a heavy armour, stand-in-the-front-lines type, artificer is straigjt up his alley, just reflavour and pretend he's not arcane. If he really, really wants the word 'Fighter' at the top of his character sheet, he's going to have to rely on items, which can get expensive, and many of them don't scale per level... so like others have said, power-swapping from other classes is what you want. Note that wizards also get some pretty strong fire support, including a feat that lets you ignore half fire resist etc. Another option is to offer him powers as a reward to replace the fighter powers that he'll have to take on level up, although that's's basically how powers work anyway.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 05:38
|
|
|
You could just add the fire keyword to his attacks (or his at-will) if he takes a minor action and leave it at that. It's not exactly official, but it's hardly gonna break the game. An encounter-long damage bonus might, though.
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 05:42
|
|
|
Alchemist theme lets you create 1 alchemical item of your level or lower per short rest, though you can only have one of them at a time (so you can't stock up or anything). Alchemical items have their own issues with scaling, but the theme is one of the few ways to make something out of it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 05:50
|
|
|
Lurdiak posted:You could just add the fire keyword to his attacks (or his at-will) if he takes a minor action and leave it at that. It's not exactly official, but it's hardly gonna break the game. An encounter-long damage bonus might, though. This was basically the first thing I offered, but he is insistent there should be a damage boost. Edit: That might be unfair, he is willing to consider that option, but he doesn't like it. thefakenews fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Sep 21, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 06:05
|
|
|
Flask of the Dragon's Breath and a fire version of the Ruby Scabbard explained as an alchemical contraption rather than a magical item might be good items for the player. You'd have to introduce stronger versions of the flask if you want it to stay relevant as the game progresses, though. Forgemaster's gauntlets could also help. Consumables like Oil of Red Flame more directly do what the player wants to do, but heavy consumable use in 4e is, uh... awkward. The Crotch fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Sep 21, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 06:18
|
|
|
thefakenews posted:He seems to just want to play a fighter but coat his sword in alchemist's fire to get an encounter long damage bonus. Is there an item that does something like this that is accessible to a level 1 character? I'm a bit wary of him turning a one use alchemist's fire into an encounter long buff, but he insists it should work that way. Maybe I'm overestimating the benefit (I probably am). Encounter long damage bonus is a Daily power. Con-secondary Artificers have an entire line of Daily powers that do exactly what he wants to do. Lemme try: Inherent bonuses, so he can spend his gold on consumables and not get screwed by the item enchantment bonus treadmill. Alchemist theme, for the free Alchemist's Fire every short rest. Brawler Fighter with Quick Draw, so he can pull out his AFires and use them in one action without juggling shields. Artificer ___ Sigil dailies instead of Fighter dailies, reworked a little to do Fire stuff instead of Cold or whatever it is this level.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 06:28
|
|
|
Not for nothing, but adding fire damage to all attacks is powerful. Extremely powerful. It's not the sorta thing that happens at no resource cost. Gensai are incredible in part because they can add fire and lightning damage with "just feats." Almost everything from items that grants fire damage does so for one attack, not the entire encounter. Elemental damage is, kinda unfortunately, very, very potent in 4e just in general; it's one of the easiest ways to stack damage modifiers. That said, there is precedence. Humans who have been Spellscared have the feat Path of the Scarred; it adds a single point of fire damage to your encounter and daily attacks. Daily powers that give a whole encounter bonus likewise exist, though they are dailies, not always on things. And of course, there are the aforementioned items that give a bonus to your next attack. So basically, your friend has to scale it down a bit. An item that gives you a full encounter bonus to all your damage doesn't exist. It doesn't exist even if we aren't talking fire damage. That's absurd. It would be used in every battle forever nonstop. Everyone in the setting would be pouring oils on their blades, and now it's not unique, so now it just lost whatever "cool factor" it could've had. And attempting to claim you can do this with the cheapest alchemical item in the game is likewise absurd. This is something that should be intrinsic to the character - aka feat, power, or theme.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 07:29
|
|
|
Yeah, this sounds like a request from someone who has a fundamental misunderstanding of how 4E works.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 07:50
|
|
|
Yeah I don't want to bag too hard on this person, but while "combatant that fights using alchemical fire" is a workable concept, "specifically a Fighter that fights using alchemical fire" is not.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 07:53
|
|
|
ProfessorCirno posted:So basically, your friend has to scale it down a bit. An item that gives you a full encounter bonus to all your damage doesn't exist. It doesn't exist even if we aren't talking fire damage. That's absurd. It would be used in every battle forever nonstop. Everyone in the setting would be pouring oils on their blades, and now it's not unique, so now it just lost whatever "cool factor" it could've had. And attempting to claim you can do this with the cheapest alchemical item in the game is likewise absurd. This is something that should be intrinsic to the character - aka feat, power, or theme. I forgot these exist, but yeeeeeeah these things can be ridiculous by allowing you to just low-effort your way into an elemental synergy. Frozen Whetstone-> Untyped 2/4/6 cold damage on all attacks until end of encounter for 100/2,600/65,000 gp a pop. Caustic Whetstone-> Untyped 2/4/6 acid ongoing on every hit until end of encounter for 200/5,000/125,000 gp as well. It could be re-flavored to fire damage I suppose, but the buyer is still in this money pit they'll never crawl out of. Successful Businessmanga fucked around with this message at 08:12 on Sep 21, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 08:06
|
|
|
Successful Businessmanga posted:I forgot these exist, but yeeeeeeah. Frozen Whetstones are legitimately one of the few things I've seen people bring up as things to be banned in 4e outside of setting specific stuff (aka Dragonmarks).
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 08:12
|
|
|
I'd just point the guy towards existing alchemical items and let him spend his share of the loot on them. Help him out by making sure he finds good magic weapons and armor since he won't be able to buy them, maybe that magic sword that lets you change all your damage to fire (Flametongue?). Let him crawl in the money pit. If it works for him and he has fun, good. If not, he can stop using fire any time and still have a complete effective character. If he gets bored or disillusioned with a reflavoured artificer, all he has left is an artificer he didn't want to play in the first place. That being said, this sounds less like a character concept and more like an idea to spice up what he knows as a boring, one-trick class. Does he know fighters don't get shafted in 4E? Or alternatively, he's telling you he wants to be resourceful using the environment and small cheap tricks, and simply reflavouring is not going to satisfy that itch specifically because it's nothing special compared to what the other characters do. Worst case is, he wants to use these tricks exclusively. Party gets attacked by wolves, instead of engaging with 4E's combat system he waves a 5 SP torch around and expects the encounter to be done with that. Have an expectations chat with him and see what comes up.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 08:28
|
|
|
ProfessorCirno posted:An item that gives you a full encounter bonus to all your damage doesn't exist. It doesn't exist even if we aren't talking fire damage. That's absurd. It would be used in every battle forever nonstop. Everyone in the setting would be pouring oils on their blades, and now it's not unique, so now it just lost whatever "cool factor" it could've had. And attempting to claim you can do this with the cheapest alchemical item in the game is likewise absurd. This is something that should be intrinsic to the character - aka feat, power, or theme. This why I was concerned about the idea, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't being an enormous grog.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 08:32
|
|
|
My Lovely Horse posted:That being said, this sounds less like a character concept and more like an idea to spice up what he knows as a boring, one-trick class. Does he know fighters don't get shafted in 4E? Or alternatively, he's telling you he wants to be resourceful using the environment and small cheap tricks, and simply reflavouring is not going to satisfy that itch specifically because it's nothing special compared to what the other characters do. Worst case is, he wants to use these tricks exclusively. Party gets attacked by wolves, instead of engaging with 4E's combat system he waves a 5 SP torch around and expects the encounter to be done with that. Have an expectations chat with him and see what comes up. I think part of it is that he likes the concept of using fire, and I think part of it is hoping he can eke out a bonus by turning cheap items into bonus damage. Not because he is trying to be exploitative, but just because he thinks it is clever play (and his 5E GM would probably allow it). To the best of my knowledge he hasn't played 4E and I think most, or all, of his experience is with 5E.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 08:41
|
|
|
thefakenews posted:To the best of my knowledge he hasn't played 4E and I think most, or all, of his experience is with 5E. This answers almost literally everything. Basically, he's used to a really boring stock class that is the very definition of a one trick pony, and likewise, probably used to having to really scrounge up random poo poo to be better and actually have fun. EDIT: Basically, like...say no. The Alchemist theme kinda works, in that he will always have an alchemical item for every fight, which, yeah, later on, can be used to set his sword on fire. Swordmage or Artificer class would work great. While Int is normally useless to a capital F Fighter as in the class, he can also put a little there to multiclass. Alternately, refluff Dragonborn (for the fire breath) or, and this might be more up his alley, Genasi, for Shocking Flame. Or, I dunno, combine a bunch of those. But just pouring alchemist's fire on his blade for a full encounter buff to damage? Naw. That said, ALSO very very strongly consider using ye olde page 42 and stunts. Your player again is probably used to making poo poo up and hoping the DM is ok with it, because that's the only way his 5e fighter is any actual fun. So let him get creative! Just remember to keep things to round-long, not encounter-long, or at least to make encounter-long stuff have some kinda cost. Maybe he spends a minor to roll a skill and on a success, he tosses his thing of alchemist's fire in the air and breaks it as he swings at the enemy to add fire that way, in some kinda Yakuza-serious-esque special move. On a failed roll, naturally, he still hits the enemy, but he wastes the alchemical fire. Or maybe, depending on your group, he flubs it hard and hits himself. That's the sorta thing that's real hit or miss, I'll note. But ideally you get the idea - stunts can let him take a mostly not great theme (alchemist) and get messy with it. Note: The alchemist theme, as I just mentioned, isn't good. Alchemical items aren't good, and consumables are generally bad in 4e - much as they were in 3.x, and for the same reason (gold isn't actually gold, it's a point-based character upgrade system). Depending on how your group goes, don't be afraid to buff it a bit for the player. Make up new items for them, or maybe make the old ones better. I dunno your group, but the bright side to all this is that you actually probably don't have to worry about things becoming unbalanced if you tip the scales a bit and houserule or whatever and let him add fire damage to his weapon using his alchemist theme, simply because 4e doesn't really get unbalanced that much by accident. You have to actually know what you're doing to create a beast of a PC that can shred DMs in 4e. Fire damage is super super valuable...if you know how to use it. First time player? Will not. On the other hand, none of this might end up mattering, since he's used to characters that do not have any options. Now he has options. He might literally drop some of this once he realizes he doesn't HAVE to do it. Entirely possible! I guess a lot of this boils down to how much he connects "alchemist" with his character, and how much of it is actually "wanna do better damage" and alchemy is just the way he went to first. I know there's no like, actual end concrete statement here, but...well, it's what I got. ProfessorCirno fucked around with this message at 09:31 on Sep 21, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 09:12
|
|
|
ProfessorCirno posted:
Because the players haven't played 4E before, I haven't given the other characters themes. As such, I don't think giving him an underpowered theme will be an issue. Edit: I have made a Genasi, hybrid Artificer|Swordmage, with the Alchemist theme. It kinda works. thefakenews fucked around with this message at 10:57 on Sep 21, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 09:40
|
|
|
Do you guys have any tips as to where I could more easily view what types of powers published monsters have in order to help me come up with some unique ones for my boss/solo encounters later on in my campaign? I used to do this with the DDI database since it was quite a bit faster than flipping through books or scrolling PDFs. If not, I'll just go to my backup plan of stealing WoW mechanics wholesale and hoping that the one other active player in my group won't notice 
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 11:08
|
|
|
Bushmeister posted:Do you guys have any tips as to where I could more easily view what types of powers published monsters have in order to help me come up with some unique ones for my boss/solo encounters later on in my campaign? I used to do this with the DDI database since it was quite a bit faster than flipping through books or scrolling PDFs.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 11:24
|
|
|
thefakenews posted:Because the players haven't played 4E before, I haven't given the other characters themes. As such, I don't think giving him an underpowered theme will be an issue. But I think the real issue is that he got to know RPGs and fighters specifically as this class where you have to work around the system to have fun, and now wants to continue working around the system. Most likely he's unaware that the new system doesn't require workarounds to be fun, but the sticking point is probably going to be that any system that doesn't let him work around it will seem restrictive and mechanical compared to the one he's used to. Which is basically what Cirno said, only more wordy. I'd point him towards all the alchemical items. When he tries tricks with torches and lamp oil, let him, but remember, they can't act the same as any other game element for a lower cost. Pouring lamp oil on a sword and lighting it will cost actions, be prone to failure or accidents, require skill checks, or all of that and more. The bonus will also be limited in time or scope. Something else to note: from a cursory and not at all thorough research I gather that oil from medieval times does not actually burn all that well without a wick. You could very well put your foot down and say all he gets when he pours oil on his sword is a greasy sword and sell it as stronger realism. "But it's a fantasy setting, I'm sure they have better oil than in actual medieval times" - of course they do, they call it Oil of Red Flame and it costs 125 GP.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 12:45
|
|
|
Yeah, I'd ask if the Alchemist thing is because he wants to be a strong + smart cunning action movie, in which case there are a number of options he can do (IIRC there's a canny fighter build!) My personal favourite being the Warlord, since I like playing tactical characters, though with his focus on damage, he might want to consider a Rogue for this kind of build. If it's specifically fire but he doesn't want to be magical for REASONS, reflavoured Swordmage or Avenger both hit things and have fire (or radiant) damage. If he wants to be a dude who fights with alchemy, well, that's Artificer, and you reflavour arcane classes if leader isn't your preferred role. Also, are you sticking to class skill list? I generally don't make them do this (and bump everyone up to at least 4 skills) but if you are it might be another reason to go Swordmage, since IIRC, Alchemy is an Arcana check.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 16:39
|
|
|
My Lovely Horse posted:But I think the real issue is that he got to know RPGs and fighters specifically as this class where you have to work around the system to have fun, and now wants to continue working around the system. Most likely he's unaware that the new system doesn't require workarounds to be fun, but the sticking point is probably going to be that any system that doesn't let him work around it will seem restrictive and mechanical compared to the one he's used to. This is really wish I expect to happen. Maybe his friend is more open minded than the 4e first timers I tend to meet, but saying "sorry, the game is balanced in such a way where I can't give you a near-free damage buff for flavor reasons" will quite possibly just make him frustrated and think that the game is now about ROLLplaying. Hopefully it doesn't come to that but good luck either way.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 16:47
|
|
|
thefakenews posted:I think part of it is that he likes the concept of using fire, and I think part of it is hoping he can eke out a bonus by turning cheap items into bonus damage. Not because he is trying to be exploitative, but just because he thinks it is clever play (and his 5E GM would probably allow it). Inferno Oil + Firewind Blade+Hybrid Desert Monk
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 16:51
|
|
|
Also, coming from 5e, literally none of that would be viable for a 1st level character. They just don't have enough money. And a 5e fighter is still probably better off attacking anyway. IMO, looks like he's trying to game some free bonuses out of you if he wants extra damage and he's not just cool with reskinning. I honestly still wouldn't give him a hybrid. They're a trap 90% of the time, and won't give him a clear role in the party. Just pick either artificer or swordmage (I'd suggest the former unless you still need a defender, it's almost literally what he wants except for the fact it's technically magic), add Alchemist theme, and tell him to just trust you. And just because I hate giving things to some people but not others, I'd suggest giving everyone else one of the flavorful but not very powerful themes.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 17:04
|
|
|
Themes were people get pets are always cool and good. TBH, themes in general are good, and beyond an extra power at level 1, don't really add too much complexity IMO, I'd consider using them.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 17:42
|
|
|
Some food for thought for going the stunts route: one dose of that oil consumable is 125 GP. One pint of regular oil is 1 SP. Even assuming you made him use the whole pint every time, the ratio of prices is about equivalent to that of a level 1 magic item to a level 23 magic item. There's creative playing, and then there's "why should I wait to find a Holy Avenger when I can just get a +1 magic sword and describe it so it gives me the same benefits?"
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 20:17
|
|
|
A monk can still fight with a sword and Desert Wind flurry of blows adds fire damage to all attacks. e: With the right build. e2: Noble Bred for War or Gritty Sergeant backgrounds would let him get Heavy Blade Proficiency, making the Heavy Blade into a monk implement if he doesn't want to just use a normal Ki Focus, which he can then light on fire for damage with Desert Wind flurry of blows. TheDemon fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Sep 21, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 20:25
|
|
|
TheDemon posted:A monk can still fight with a sword and Desert Wind flurry of blows adds fire damage to all attacks. True.....he just reminded me of an old Char Op build that was Fighter|Monk/Avenger/Adroit Explorer/Reincarnated Champion that used Inferno Oil and Path of the Scarred with the Firewind Blade until Epic when it used Inferno Oil and shocking Flame with Firewind Blade https://web.archive.org/web/20150930005859/http://community.wizards.com/comment/49884216 Madmarker fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Sep 21, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 20:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 06:06 |
|
|
I mean if it were me I'd just play a melee-ranged sorcerer, take all fire attacks, and describe all my Flame Spirals as a whirling dervish of burning blades. But it can be real hard for a new player to wrap their head around that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 22, 2017 01:30
|
|
