|
Majorian posted:I don't think that's something that we can assume quite so readily. Someone as flamboyant and unapologetically fascist as Trump was probably needed for the Republicans to win, but I don't think the candidate needed to be quite as know-nothing about politics. My point is, I think it's a mistake to suggest that the Republicans taking complete control of the government isn't that big of a deal, because they've only gotten Gorsuch out of it so far. The Democrats had to lose pretty spectacularly over the course of several elections to reach this state of affairs, and it's only through a miracle that the GOP has been so unable capitalize on our loss. There's definitely truth to that, and it's a problem of compounding losses (i.e. Democrats losing state house seats make it tougher to recruit good gubernatorial and Congressional candidates). However, I also think that there's a lot for Democrats to learn from the Republicans' struggle. Promoting ideological rigor above all hasn't led to more ideological uniformity among Republicans, nor has it led to more disciplined legislative caucuses. Edit: to take this point further, the crazy Republican Primary produced a President who has abandoned many of his core campaign promises and actively sabotages legislative proposals for being too conservative. Democrazy fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Sep 21, 2017 |
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 22:20 |
|
|
This is what happens when your ideology isn't moral: you value property over human life.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:28
|
|
|
Phi230 posted:lol is this parody Is living next to a derelict house a desirable situation? Do you believe that Arlington, VA is a better or worse place to live in 2017 compared to 1980?
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:28
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Is living next to a derelict house a desirable situation? You literally cannot imagine people losing their homes because of people like you can you. I'll live next to, or in, a lovely house or apartment if that means you aren't destroying peoples lives and communities.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:29
|
|
|
Majorian posted:...you're going to have to delve into this a bit, because I'm not understanding how you can say this is a semantics game that presents a false dichotomy. Unless you're saying that people who are economically conservative are full of poo poo when they claim to be pro-POC/pro-women/pro-LGBT, in which case I think there's a lot of truth to that. People who claim to be socially liberal while fiscally conservative are full of poo poo, because they're paying lip service to social liberalism while supporting policies that undermine it. It's the "I'm not racist BUT" of politics.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:29
|
|
|
Oh and I'll just say we are a few posts away from liberals resorting to racism to explain what a "good neighborhood" is
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:30
|
|
|
Phi230 posted:lol is this parody it's improved now because wealthier, whiter people are living in it
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:31
|
|
|
Phi230 posted:You literally cannot imagine people losing their homes because of people like you can you. Is the average POC (40% of the population) in Arlington, VA better off now than they were in 1980?
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:31
|
|
|
theflyingorc posted:I don't think this is untrue, but it somewhat ignores that the vast majority of the loss came as backlash-to-black-president in 2010, where redrawing districts murdered everything. This doesn't mean that the Dems couldn't have handled things much better, but, to me, the root cause of the problems are that the left(all of it, from dead center to Karl Marx's ghost) rested on its laurels after electing a black guy, and Republicans instead chose to LOSE THEIR MINDS. This I think is really relevant. Redistricting has been one of the biggest losses for the left (perhaps on the same level as SCOTUS), but seriously, no one was really writing or losing their poo poo over it in 2010. We all missed the huge shift in power, and it basically took six years for the full effects to be felt. I guess there were also very few people who realized that Republicans would go from 0 to Full Fascist in 1 Black President.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:33
|
|
|
Don't argue with Leon. He's too smart, he'll make you look like a fool. Seriously.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:34
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Is the average POC (40% of the population) in Arlington, VA better off now than they were in 1980? I don't think you even know how gentrification works or even what it is
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:34
|
|
|
Community development is a really tough issue, because there's a lot of good incentives (expanding tax base, offering better services, more supermarkets) that lead to bad outcomes (greater homelessness, people being forced to leave the neighborhoods). It's a fine and noble thing to end a food desert or improve schools, but you can't destroy the village to save it and call it good policy.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:35
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Is living next to a derelict house a desirable situation? It doesn't matter if you can't afford to live there. This is a literal colonialist argument for land seizure. We "improved" the land, so we should get it. That improvement has no value to the original residents if they can no longer afford to live there (or, in colonial context, are subject to genocide).
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:35
|
|
|
Phi230 posted:I don't think you even know how gentrification works no goons really do except for a handful but i do appreciate this attempt to end the derail
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:36
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:So, your thinking is that Hillary Clinton was: I was speaking in terms of candidates at least claiming to be left-of-center/running on the ostensibly left-of-center party ticket. Obviously Gary Johnson and Rand Paul are on the most extreme fringes, as far as adjacent-to-mainstream American economic politics go. Jaxyon posted:People who claim to be socially liberal while fiscally conservative are full of poo poo, because they're paying lip service to social liberalism while supporting policies that undermine it. Okay, then we're in agreement. Keep in mind, I'm talking about how candidates cast themselves and message their agenda, not what they actually believe in their heart of hearts. Democrazy posted:There's definitely truth to that, and it's a problem of compounding losses (i.e. Democrats losing state house seats make it tougher to recruit good gubernatorial and Congressional candidates). However, I also think that there's a lot for Democrats to learn from the Republicans' struggle. Promoting ideological rigor above all hasn't led to more ideological uniformity among Republicans, nor has it led to more disciplined legislative caucuses. But who's talking about ideological rigor? I know it's something that centrists assume that leftists are demanding of them, but it's really not true. No one outside of the fringes is actually saying, "We all need to be 100% onboard with my particular weird sub-brand of Full Communism Now." Saying that the Democratic Party should be the party of single payer healthcare really isn't demanding that much, in terms of ideological rigor. I don't think anyone is expecting the Heitkamps or Manchins of the party to sign on with that readily. (and even so, Manchin has shown himself to be at least a little bit open to it) What we want the Democratic Party to change, at least right now, is their messaging. We want them to win. We don't want the Democrats to keep losing. They're going to keep losing if they don't change, and that would suck for everyone but GOP officials and major donors. For the last several years, the Democrats' message has been, "We're also comfortable with major corporations, and believe in limited government. We are Republican light." As Bill Clinton himself bitterly exclaimed, "We're all Eisenhower Republicans, and we're running against Reagan Republicans." That's a terrible, terrible message. Asking for a concerted shift away from that is hardly a demand for ideological purity. Majorian fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Sep 21, 2017 |
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:36
|
|
|
Phi230 posted:I don't think you even know how gentrification works I don't think your issue is with liberals, or even wealthy people, but capitalism. If that's the case, then I think you guys aren't going to agree and it's kind of unfair to attack someone who accepts that the reality of the circumstances of the broader situation without addressing their frame of reference.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:36
|
|
|
Boon posted:Seriously, someone needs to come in here and set some rules because despite the Trump thread being essentially USPOL before this reopened there was never the sustained shittiness of internet 'leftists' that the last couple of days has seen. Some of these posters do not post in Trump, or if they do rarely. There is an entire thread dedicated to the idea that the Dems are bad, gently caress off to that thread gently caress off to your own poo poo trump thread (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:39
|
|
|
Phi230 posted:I don't think you even know how gentrification works What do you think the differences are between Arlington, VA ("America's Most Gentrified Municipality in 2011") in 1980 and 2017? What do you think caused these differences and are they positive? Or is the city today functionally identical to its 1980 version?
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:39
|
|
|
Boon posted:I don't think your issue is with liberals, or even wealthy people, but capitalism. If that's the case, then I think you guys aren't going to agree and it's kind of unfair to attack someone who accepts that the reality of the circumstances of the broader situation without addressing their reference frame. But liberals love capitalism and support it, to the point of tolerating and perpetuating things like gentrification, segregated school districts + private/charter schools and all that poo poo. Liberals say they support social justice but stop at actually wanting to improve people's lives and material conditions, especially people of color.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:39
|
|
|
Pembroke Fuse posted:It doesn't matter if you can't afford to live there. This is a literal colonialist argument for land seizure. We "improved" the land, so we should get it. That improvement has no value to the original residents if they can no longer afford to live there (or, in colonial context, are subject to genocide). 72% of the population in Arlington, VA has been living there for more than 30 years. That is higher than the U.S. national average. Do you believe that their economic prospects and municipal makeup in 2017 is similar, better, or worse than it was in 1980?
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:40
|
|
|
Phi230 posted:But liberals love capitalism and support it, to the point of tolerating and perpetuating things like gentrification, segregated school districts + private/charter schools and all that poo poo. Liberals say they support social justice but stop at actually wanting to improve people's lives and material conditions, especially people of color. By and large I do not think this is the case. I think most liberals advocate a balance of which the shades are quibbled over endlessly. I don't know what you think liberals are though, so. Raskolnikov38 posted:gently caress off to your own poo poo trump thread Salient point.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:40
|
|
|
Boon posted:By and large I do not think this is the case. I think most liberals advocate a balance of which the shades are quibbled over endlessly. I don't know what you think liberals are though, so. you sound pretentious as gently caress
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:41
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:72% of the population in Arlington, VA has been living there for more than 30 years. That is higher than the U.S. national average. Why do you support gentrification why do you hate the poor, and people of color why do you support colonialism I can do the dumb socratic stuff too
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:42
|
|
|
Phi230 posted:you sound pretentious as gently caress I'm trying to discuss ideas in USPOL above the level of bumper stickers and no punctuation. I guess that's pretentious.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:43
|
|
|
Oxxidation posted:And just like them, you have nothing to offer. You have memes, like the ones Ze Pollack's spouting right now. You do nothing. You contribute nothing. No one in this country is any better off for whatever minimal labor you may put in whenever you're not sitting on your rear end and shitposting. I canvas for single payer in California, am I allowed to say the democrats are bad or is that verboten
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:43
|
|
|
Boon posted:I'm trying to discuss ideas in USPOL above the level of bumper stickers and no punctuation. I guess that's pretentious. Lol yeah you're pretentious as gently caress (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:43
|
|
|
Condiv posted:isn't she the cia operative the repubs outed during the bush admin? in any case, extremely yikes opinion. Same one. I'm now legit happy that she got burned by Bush Jr. I'd rather see her on the outside saying this kind of Protocols of Zion crap instead of sitting on the inside of the state pushing her anti-semitism anonymously.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:44
|
|
|
Boon posted:By and large I do not think this is the case. I think most liberals advocate a balance of which the shades are quibbled over endlessly. I don't know what you think liberals are though, so. Made of straw apparently? Majorian posted:But who's talking about ideological rigor? I know it's something that centrists assume that leftists are demanding of them, but it's really not true. No one outside of the fringes is actually saying, "We all need to be 100% onboard with my particular weird sub-brand of Full Communism Now." Saying that the Democratic Party should be the party of single payer healthcare really isn't demanding that much, in terms of ideological rigor. I don't think anyone is expecting the Heitkamps or Manchins of the party to sign on with that readily. (and even so, Manchin has shown himself to be at least a little bit open to it) What we want the Democratic Party to change, at least right now, is their messaging. We want them to win. We don't want the Democrats to keep losing. They're going to keep losing if they don't change, and that would suck for everyone but GOP officials and major donors. If anything I would say that for the last several years the Democrats have kind of lacked any sort of consistent messaging and that has allowed others to define the messaging for them. Certainly a failure of the DNC on some levels, but there was also the rather poorly conceived 'Run away from the President' of many of the past elections that simply doesn't work.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:45
|
|
|
People forget that while mixed-income neighbourhoods are generally good for those lower on the income scale, usually this only comes about through some kind of organic growth and integration. If it's inorganic, like most gentrification projects are, anyone who could have benefited from living in a mixed-income neighbourhood (particularly the worst-off economically who can't at all afford the new rents) is driven out into even poorer areas. Gentrification, particularly in up-and-coming urban areas, forces the very poor to live even further away from centres of economic activity, thus reducing their access to even scraps of employment. The question to ask isn't "are the remainder better off now?", the question to ask is "how far away were the rest of the poor people pushed out to?". Relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l242Sj26k8M
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:45
|
|
|
Phi230 posted:Why do you support gentrification The city has gotten less white in the past 30 years. Is your assertion that latino, asian, and african-americans are engaging in vicious colonialism? Do you know or have an opinion about the previous questions? They are directly relevant to the point you are trying to make.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:45
|
|
|
I'd like to note that in all my time organizing over the past year I have only once seen a liberal group actually out on the streets organizing and they proceeded to alienate local Black activists + DREAMERs + leftist groups with their conduct and they don't get invited to events anymore so again who is actually putting the work in?
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:45
|
|
|
Phi320 can't grasp that not ever local is Cali/LA.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:45
|
|
|
Submarine Sandpaper posted:Phi320 can't grasp that not ever local is Cali/LA. I don't live anywhere near cali so nice try
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:46
|
|
|
Phi230 posted:I'll live next to, or in, a lovely house or apartment if that means you aren't destroying peoples lives and communities. Sorry, I'm not an expert on gentrification since it's not as common out here in Real America. Are those our only two choices?
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:47
|
|
|
Taerkar posted:If anything I would say that for the last several years the Democrats have kind of lacked any sort of consistent messaging and that has allowed others to define the messaging for them. Certainly a failure of the DNC on some levels, but there was also the rather poorly conceived 'Run away from the President' of many of the past elections that simply doesn't work. Well, but we're seeing kind of the same general trend from Democratic centrists even nowadays, aren't we? The reflexive need to apologize for big government, the protests that "We're capitalist," the fixation with means-testing when it comes to the social safety net, etc. It really makes Democratic leaders seem distinctly not-proud of the principles that they're supposed to espouse.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:47
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:72% of the population in Arlington, VA has been living there for more than 30 years. That is higher than the U.S. national average. Whenever you look at a gentrification project, you should ask yourself where the hell the rest of the poor people are being pushed out to. See my comment above about the value of mixed-income neighbourhoods.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:48
|
|
|
PerniciousKnid posted:Sorry, I'm not an expert on gentrification since it's not as common out here in Real America. Are those our only two choices? what if I told you could improve the poor's material conditions and live in a nice house at the same time
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:49
|
|
|
Pembroke Fuse posted:Whenever you look at a gentrification project, you should ask yourself where the hell the rest of the poor people are being pushed out to. See my comment above about the value of mixed-income neighbourhoods. 72% of the population in Arlington, VA has been living there for more than 30 years. That is higher than the U.S. national average.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:49
|
|
|
Majorian posted:Well, but we're seeing kind of the same general trend from Democratic centrists even nowadays, aren't we? The reflexive need to apologize for big government, the protests that "We're capitalist," the fixation with means-testing when it comes to the social safety net, etc. It really makes Democratic leaders seem distinctly not-proud of the principles that they're supposed to espouse. Very much so, and it's in part an unpleasant reaction to how off-the-rails the other side has gotten. I certainly don't excuse it though I understand why they thought they should. Hell, you hear the reasoning here in these threads every now and then with claims about how 'The US is a Conservative Country'. We're really not, but their grammar and terminology has infested low-level discourse. It's like the opposite of health care with people. They hate the individual components of Capitalism, but Capitalism itself is so ingrained into the collective psyche that they blindly support it as a whole.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 22:20 |
|
|
People should be listening to Phi. Those renovated houses aren't being priced closer to the other houses that are there, they're being flipped and pricing out people of color. White people's excuses for gentrification are freaking tone deaf. It would be one thing if those houses were given to other poor people in the neighborhood, but they're not. They're being sold for a profit and white capitalists don't give a gently caress about poc or the poor in general. Wasn't there even a new report about how flippers helped gently caress up the housing bubble? If that's what launched this convo, sorry I missed it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2017 19:50
|
|
