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boner confessor posted:not anymore we dont lol Just because you fantasize about complicated policy points in your "solution" doesn't mean it will work either. Pretending to wank over details doesn't make your poo poo realistic
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Sep 21, 2017 20:20
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boner confessor posted:not anymore we dont lol I'm sorry, are you trying to claim that there is no such thing as public housing in the US anymore? Your random, evidence-less claims that his plan is magical aren't super convincing. And I'm pretty sure, one of the points that he's making is that we need to find a way to use state and local laws to do the things he's talking about. Do you have a substantive rebuttal to the argument, or are you just making GBS threads on it because it's cheap, easy, and common to claim all things left of Bill Clinton are impossible pipe dreams?
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Sep 21, 2017 20:20
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boner confessor posted:create a special gentrification mitigation overlay district which does two things: These are all really bad ideas if your goal is more affordable housing. All of these suggestions are actually currently present in some form in San Francisco. Reducing housing stock, incentivizing single-family homes, and capping property taxes (ala prop 13) is a perfect recipe to massively increase housing costs. It makes buying a house basically mandatory and penalizes you for selling one.
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Sep 21, 2017 20:21
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Phi230 posted:Just because you fantasize about complicated policy points in your "solution" doesn't mean it will work either. Pretending to wank over details doesn't make your poo poo realistic ok i'll wait for you to ride up on a unicorn and save the poor minorities who are useful props for your rumplestiltskin level strawspinning lmbo
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Sep 21, 2017 20:21
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Raskolnikov38 posted:introducing house flippers to the national razor They get a special guillotine made from a sharpened quartz countertop.
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Sep 21, 2017 20:21
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RaySmuckles posted:as for LGBT) Not to mention that trans rights have stalled. The ACA puts protections in that trans-related things can't be denied... if there's federal funds involved, so things from the marketplace and medicare/medicaid/whatever insurance veterans have idk are completely fine, but if you get insurance through an employer, then tough poo poo you play by their rules. And the title IX bathroom things for school only applied for public schools and was only a guideline, so that was reversed immediately. There is the ability to change a passport with a doctor's note saying that everything's good, tho
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Sep 21, 2017 20:22
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Like housing decommodification has been done before in many other places and in many degrees, even here in the US, yet you call something that exists and is still in practice "magic"
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Sep 21, 2017 20:22
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Captain Monkey posted:I'm sorry, are you trying to claim that there is no such thing as public housing in the US anymore? Your random, evidence-less claims that his plan is magical aren't super convincing. And I'm pretty sure, one of the points that he's making is that we need to find a way to use state and local laws to do the things he's talking about. Do you have a substantive rebuttal to the argument, or are you just making GBS threads on it because it's cheap, easy, and common to claim all things left of Bill Clinton are impossible pipe dreams? it's called section 8 and it's a doozy. google "destruction of us public housing" http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35913577
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Sep 21, 2017 20:22
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boner confessor posted:ok i'll wait for you to ride up on a unicorn and save the poor minorities who are useful props for your rumplestiltskin level strawspinning lmbo Do you have more to offer than 'lol nah'?
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Sep 21, 2017 20:22
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boner confessor posted:ok i'll wait for you to ride up on a unicorn and save the poor minorities who are useful props for your rumplestiltskin level strawspinning lmbo Yeah just what I thought
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Sep 21, 2017 20:22
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Captain Monkey posted:Do you have more to offer than 'lol nah'? stories of his infant daughter brutally owning him but that's it
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Sep 21, 2017 20:23
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boner confessor posted:ok i'll wait for you to ride up on a unicorn and save the poor minorities who are useful props for your rumplestiltskin level strawspinning lmbo What the gently caress is this post.
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Sep 21, 2017 20:23
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Phi230 posted:Like housing decommodification has been done before in many other places and in many degrees, even here in the US, yet you call something that exists and is still in practice "magic" You are either being reaaaaaaaaaally generous with your definition of decommodification or you don't know what decommodification means. Which cities in the U.S. do you believe have a decommodified housing market?
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Sep 21, 2017 20:24
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A major part of ending housing inequality is ending redlining and predatory lending practice but I guess those are magical pie in the sky ponies that have never been done before anywhere ever except my imagination
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Sep 21, 2017 20:24
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Mustached Demon posted:They get a special guillotine made from a sharpened quartz countertop. "House Flippers" needed that as a series finale
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Sep 21, 2017 20:24
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Captain Monkey posted:Do you have more to offer than 'lol nah'? i dont know what to tell you other than research what is happening to public housing in the united states and who is responsible for the administration of public housing (as well as the incentives they have to convert it to market based developments) i mean i could write you a book but i doubt it would be useful here given that we're currently up to our next in the leftist firing squad version of nationalize all housing and how feasible that might be Probably Magic posted:What the gently caress is this post. me making fun of a guy who thinks building new public housing in the current political economy is at all something which could happen on a practical level in the united states
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Sep 21, 2017 20:24
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Maybe it's just a dumb idea but I feel like housing where it's a 4 story apartment, a family gets half a floor for roughly 2000sq ft would be a decent way to increase density and maintain a higher quality of living. But maybe that is too far outside of my realm of expertise, just that 4 floors would keep the infrastructure costs down
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Sep 21, 2017 20:25
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https://www.centrism.biz/
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Sep 21, 2017 20:25
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Probably Magic posted:What the gently caress is this post. He's just trying to wave away any push toward policies to the left of Third Way centrism with claims that it would require literal magic fairy wands to enact laws that are slightly less lovely than the ones currently on the books. It's basically a really lame rear end appeal to tradition.
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Sep 21, 2017 20:25
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:You are either being reaaaaaaaaaally generous with your definition of decommodification or you don't know what decommodification means. Is public housing not one small degree on a scale of decommodification or what. Because that's the precedent we have here right now. It's not hard to extrapolate an already existing policy, with guidance from other policies elsewhere.
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Sep 21, 2017 20:25
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RuanGacho posted:Maybe it's just a dumb idea but I feel like housing where it's a 4 story apartment, a family gets half a floor for roughly 2000sq ft would be a decent way to increase density and maintain a higher quality of living. For some reason the suburban American dream REQUIRES a yard I hate yards, they require lots of work.
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Sep 21, 2017 20:26
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boner confessor posted:i dont know what to tell you other than research what is happening to public housing in the united states and who is responsible for the administration of public housing (as well as the incentives they have to convert it to market based developments) I'm asking you to do more than tell me to do your research for you. This is a debate and discussion forum - offer us some things to debate and discuss that aren't you just wildly declaring that everyone that disagrees with you is completely crazy. I don't think that's a lot to ask for.
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Sep 21, 2017 20:26
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theflyingorc posted:For some reason the suburban American dream REQUIRES a yard yeah, yards suck. they seem to me much more of a status symbol thing, but then again i don't have kids. if i had kids i'm sure a yard would be great- much more convenient then having to go to the park all the time
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Sep 21, 2017 20:27
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Captain Monkey posted:He's just trying to wave away any push toward policies to the left of Third Way centrism with claims that it would require literal magic fairy wands to enact laws that are slightly less lovely than the ones currently on the books. i mean i proposed a plan which would actually work on the level of a single jurisdiction and could be done without extensive political campaigns beyond getting enough people to show up at zoning board meetings but i'm being shouted down by people who don't even grok the idea of overlay zoning so i'm just making enemies here by pissing on useless fantasies  it's not my fault goons are ignorant and smug Captain Monkey posted:I'm asking you to do more than tell me to do your research for you. This is a debate and discussion forum - offer us some things to debate and discuss that aren't you just wildly declaring that everyone that disagrees with you is completely crazy. friendo you're deliberately asking me to do your research for you
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Sep 21, 2017 20:27
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boner confessor posted:i mean i proposed a plan which would actually work on the level of a single jurisdiction and could be done without extensive political campaigns beyond getting enough people to show up at zoning board meetings but i'm being shouted down by people who don't even grok the idea of overlay zoning so i'm just making enemies here by pissing on useless fantasies Kettle.jpg
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Sep 21, 2017 20:28
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theflyingorc posted:For some reason the suburban American dream REQUIRES a yard Yeah I think there's a market for it, he'll, make it 5 and make the middle floor for singles split 4 instead of 2. I'd like more taller apartment density too but this is where my personal incrementalism kicks in 
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Sep 21, 2017 20:28
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Phi230 posted:Is public housing not one small degree on a scale of decommodification or what. Because that's the precedent we have here right now. It's not hard to extrapolate an already existing policy, with guidance from other policies elsewhere. Okay, so you don't know what decommodification is. Partially subsidizing housing is not decommodifying it. Public Housing provides you with a voucher that pays a portion of your rent. It still has a market price and your subsidy is variable based on that price and your income.
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Sep 21, 2017 20:28
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theflyingorc posted:For some reason the suburban American dream REQUIRES a yard it's called exclusionary zoning
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Sep 21, 2017 20:28
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theflyingorc posted:For some reason the suburban American dream REQUIRES a yard It's a preference thing I think. Some people (me) enjoy yard work. It's relaxing and decent exercise I guess. It's about 50/50 in my neighborhood whether people pay for their yard work or do it themselves.
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Sep 21, 2017 20:29
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boner confessor posted:i mean i proposed a plan which would actually work on the level of a single jurisdiction and could be done without extensive political campaigns beyond getting enough people to show up at zoning board meetings but i'm being shouted down by people who don't even grok the idea of overlay zoning so i'm just making enemies here by pissing on useless fantasies your poo poo is more of a magical fantasy than mine because it requires people to act and behave in very specific ways only conducive to your proposed end you just dress it up with hoops you have to jump through and rules you have to follow
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Sep 21, 2017 20:29
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Phi230 posted:your poo poo is more of a magical fantasy than mine because it requires people to act and behave in very specific ways only conducive to your proposed end yeah changing local zoning on the level of a single jurisdiction is wayyyyyyy harder than implenting a cross jurisdictional plan to deliberately build and administrate new public housing you have no idea how to actually implement your political dogma on a practical policy level and it's just barely funnier than it is tedious
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Sep 21, 2017 20:31
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Okay, so you don't know what decommodification is. Decommodification is making something not a commodity. Subsidizing housing is a sure step to decommodification of housing. So are rent caps and the like. It's all apart of the process of decommodification. gently caress it just nationalize all housing so my argument can be more in line with your semantics
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Sep 21, 2017 20:31
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Phi230 posted:Pretending to wank over details Who do you think is pretending to wank here? Trust me, he's wanking. boner confessor posted:i mean i proposed a plan which would actually work on the level of a single jurisdiction and could be done without extensive political campaigns beyond getting enough people to show up at zoning board meetings but i'm being shouted down by people who don't even grok the idea of overlay zoning so i'm just making enemies here by pissing on useless fantasies Sorry, you disagreed with someone who said they were leftist. You are a centrist now.
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Sep 21, 2017 20:31
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Boon posted:I think where you and I diverge is that I sincerely, truly, do not believe that the US can exist as a country if the Democrats do not attempt to maintain the order and the laws of our institutions and instead shift to a hyper-partisan mentality. The mid-19th century is a pretty good example of what happens when the good guys repeatedly insist on compromising with the increasingly-partisan bad guys. The North compromised with the Southern slaveowners over and over again, compromising their morals and allowing injustice to flourish all for the sake of holding the Union together. Look how well that worked: every time Southern stubbornness was rewarded with undeserved concessions made for the sake of keeping the peace and avoiding a crisis, they simply doubled down even harder. Every time a theoretically neutral compromise deal was forged, the South immediately went about blatantly violating and abusing it in order to keep the advantage, while at the same time whining loudly about the few conditions they couldn't easily worm their way out of. For all the North's struggles to keep the country together and maintain the peace, it ended up pointless in the end, as the South threw unity to the winds as soon as they lost effective control of the country. A Representative beat another one into bloody unconsciousness on the floor of the House, and the House couldn't even gather the votes to expel him. Was Charles Sumner at fault for being too mean to the poor old violent slaveowning maniacs? Should he have been less extreme and more compromising towards the radical white supremacists who beat him so badly he spent three years recovering? Political polarization becomes a problem when one party is hyper-partisan. That alone is enough to destabilize the country, and it doesn't much matter what the other party does about it; compromise is only dodging the conflict and delaying the inevitable reckoning.
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Sep 21, 2017 20:32
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First step would be to remove housing as a profit-seeking activity. This removes both landowners who rent and speculators. As it currently stands, the only people who have housing are those who are rich enough they own their own place (the bank can make a profit of their mortgage) or those who can afford to rent at a level profitable to the property owner. One of the problems with the Minneapolis housing market right now is city zoning codes only allow for 58' max outside of downtown, unless a variance is given (which is quite rare). 58' is generally ground level retail and then 4 levels of apartments. This sounds nice except the land values have greatly increased in all the areas people want to live. So when development companies come in and buy the land to build, they have to build luxury apartments (~$1500/1br which is over 40%-50% more than everything else). Any sort of affordable housing is not profitable. hosed up zoning laws are a real problem.
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Sep 21, 2017 20:33
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theflyingorc posted:For some reason the suburban American dream REQUIRES a yard The typical 'yard' is also pretty terrible, especially when it's just an open area of grass. Small planting areas on patios/balconies are good though. As are 'green spaces' around the building with bushes and the like so it's not just as sea of concrete.
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Sep 21, 2017 20:33
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Majumbo posted:Any sort of affordable housing is not profitable. i agree that zoning codes are hosed up in many ways but often affordable housing isn't profitable because of long term market trends. there's very few occasions in us history where brand new multifamily housing is built specifically for the middle of the market or lower
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Sep 21, 2017 20:35
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boner confessor posted:yeah changing local zoning on the level of a single jurisdiction is wayyyyyyy harder than implenting a cross jurisdictional plan to deliberately build and administrate new public housing Actually, I do, and my "political dogma" such as rent caps and similar/parallel policies can and have been instituted in single jurisdictions. You're just gushing over some process rather than trying to attain a goal. The result of your thinking is a needlessly complicated system that only works when everybody is acting exactly as required and at the end of the loving day it doesn't even solve the problem.
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Sep 21, 2017 20:37
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boner confessor posted:i agree that zoning codes are hosed up in many ways but often affordable housing isn't profitable because of long term market trends. there's very few occasions in us history where brand new multifamily housing is built specifically for the middle of the market or lower So remove it from market forces. Or massively subsidize construction. Or create universal housing credits.
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Sep 21, 2017 20:38
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Majumbo posted:So remove it from market forces. Or massively subsidize construction. Or create universal housing credits. boner confessor: but how will we means test the housing credits
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Sep 21, 2017 20:39
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