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axeil posted:This is also a good post and it's about one of my key frustrations: how do we solve the bad actor problem? I don't really have any answers but I'm coming to believe that a lot of the problems in modern America can be tied back to bad actors abusing the system for their own gain. It's called capitalism  sufficient regulatory reach should help mitigate it.
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Sep 21, 2017 21:26
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:It's cool and good to pretend that the nation didn't just elect a white nationalist so we can ignore racism in the status quo. I don't think "Didn't Vote" has an actual ideology, so I'm not sure who you're talking to since they were the prime vote getter and all.
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Sep 21, 2017 21:26
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to fear that leftist policy may be implemented with racism in this day and age is to think leftists are racist, or willing to compromise with racists which couldn't be farther from the truth there's the difference between the actors running the policy being allowed to be racist because the policy was intentionally made so, or left intentionally vague as to allow it, and the policy being specifically made so that this doesn't happen. This isn't 1933. This is 2017. And despite racism existing in this country its possible to craft a policy that makes things like redlining and blockbusting illegal or impossible. It's possible to make sure that the policy cannot be used to create inequalities. Phi230 fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Sep 21, 2017 |
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Sep 21, 2017 21:27
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This might piss axeil off but more people need to be covered by a fiduciary obligation with strong legal teeth. The loan officer should be required by law to offer you the best loan for you and not the best loan for the bank. If we're keeping private lending that is...I'm open to alternatives.
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Sep 21, 2017 21:29
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Weren't the Dixiecrats part of the new deal?
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Sep 21, 2017 21:29
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Phi230 posted:to fear that leftist policy may be implemented with racism in this day and age is to think leftists are racist, or willing to compromise with racists which couldn't be farther from the truth There's also ignoring it which you're so willing to lay entirely on the feet of neolibs
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Sep 21, 2017 21:29
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Trabisnikof posted:This is verging on derail territory, but there are number of Social System Design theories that actually argue you should first construct your perfect reality and then figure out what parts of that perfect reality can survive the transition to something real. These methods are messy and emotional but generally create social systems that are more in line with the values and goals of the individual and group. This actually sounds fascinating and I'd like to do more of it.
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Sep 21, 2017 21:30
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Phi230 posted:to fear that leftist policy may be implemented with racism in this day and age is to think leftists are racist, or willing to compromise with racists which couldn't be farther from the truth I don't think the thread realized we were assuming the US federal government was entirely taken over by leftists.
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Sep 21, 2017 21:30
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Trabisnikof posted:This might piss axeil off Ha! This is America son. Soon even medical doctors will be able to pursue what's best for them over what's best for the client.
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Sep 21, 2017 21:30
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Trabisnikof posted:Unfortunately most of these methods are explicitly designed for social systems where you can get all the stakeholders in a room, something we can't do with Housing policy. someone's never attended a charette proposing upzoning in a residential neighborhood  if you do, bring a poncho and a spit mask! Trabisnikof posted:I don't think the thread realized we were assuming the US federal government was entirely taken over by leftists. please keep your neoliberal mewling to a dull roar, thank you
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Sep 21, 2017 21:32
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Trabisnikof posted:I don't think the thread realized we were assuming the US federal government was entirely taken over by leftists. read: making the law unable to be used in a racist capacity so that racist actors cannot exploit that
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Sep 21, 2017 21:32
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Phi230 posted:read: making the law unable to be used in a racist capacity so that racist actors cannot exploit that ah, let's just make it impossible for the laws to be used or interpreted in a racist way. what a great idea, drat, i dont know why nobody's thought of this before
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Sep 21, 2017 21:33
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Phi230 posted:read: making the law unable to be used in a racist capacity so that racist actors cannot exploit that phew. I mean, I'd love for that to happen, but good luck you definitely don't have to worry about getting that passed while the Dems have no control
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Sep 21, 2017 21:33
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:There's also ignoring it which you're so willing to lay entirely on the feet of neolibs any leftist group cares deeply about racism and if you think for a moment any of them would ignore blatant racism for a "win" is ascribing them traits that really only neoliberals possess tolerating injustice for the sake of comfort is something really only centrists do
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Sep 21, 2017 21:34
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Trabisnikof posted:This might piss axeil off As a agent I think that if you're a realtor you should be bound by a fiduciary duty to your clients and if you break that you're beaten within an inch of your life. I'm not exaggerating or joking either.
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Sep 21, 2017 21:34
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look, instead of introducing policies that have problems, let's just... hear me out here, ok? how about we do that, but instead, we take the problems out of our policies before we enact them? that way, there won't be any problems. it's pretty simple when you think about it
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Sep 21, 2017 21:35
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theflyingorc posted:phew. I mean, I'd love for that to happen, but good luck do you often worry that the world is ending when the sun is setting there's two things: firstly there's a concept of time called the future and secondly there's something called organizing and/or activism to build support and grow a movement for a vision of the future all of this work started already
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Sep 21, 2017 21:36
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boner confessor posted:look, instead of introducing policies that have problems, let's just... hear me out here, ok? how about we do that, but instead, we take the problems out of our policies before we enact them? that way, there won't be any problems. it's pretty simple when you think about it So why bother doing anything at all? Problems will always come up! You're so loving pessimistic.
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Sep 21, 2017 21:39
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On Terra Firma posted:As a agent I think that if you're a realtor you should be bound by a fiduciary duty to your clients and if you break that you're beaten within an inch of your life. I'm not exaggerating or joking either. In this age of illusions and farts, requiring more professions to have fiduciary responsibility could go a long way to stopping a lot of crime and fraud, we need to be much more liberal with requiring that.
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Sep 21, 2017 21:39
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so like after the hurricane irma we all got food and household supplies and went to several locations and like gave out the food and household items to people for free we even made it fun by making it a series of cookouts. it really brought out a community you see how we didn't lobby the city council to provide tax incentives for grocery stores to stock more food, to make food cheaper, so people could buy food it looks like your idea of "helping the needy" is a pie in the sky fantasy, commie
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Sep 21, 2017 21:41
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If I moved to a low-income, black neighborhood, I'd put a truck up on blocks in the front yard to help drive prices down. 
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Sep 21, 2017 21:42
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Just leave all of your posts around to really drive the price down! j/kboner confessor posted:look, instead of introducing policies that have problems, let's just... hear me out here, ok? how about we do that, but instead, we take the problems out of our policies before we enact them? that way, there won't be any problems. it's pretty simple when you think about it There is certainly something to be said about reviewing a policy for any obvious flaws before trying to implement it, but the real failing of a system comes not from flawed policies but rather from a lack of corrective action taken in regards to those flaws.
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Sep 21, 2017 21:42
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Phi230 posted:do you often worry that the world is ending when the sun is setting most of the chatter lately has been about what Dems are doing RIGHT NOW, not "when they're in power again", so excuse me for thinking you're talking about the present moment also the firey chariot only returns each morning because of the fervent prayers I offer each night
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Sep 21, 2017 21:43
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Phi230 posted:so like after the hurricane irma we all got food and household supplies and went to several locations and like And you're arguing it is literally impossible for racism to influence which neighborhoods you gave food and household items since leftists did it. And if someone dares to question which neighborhoods you choose and how you picked them, they're calling you a racist.
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Sep 21, 2017 21:44
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On Terra Firma posted:As a agent I think that if you're a realtor you should be bound by a fiduciary duty to your clients and if you break that you're beaten within an inch of your life. I'm not exaggerating or joking either. Agreed. I think everyone in finance who are dealing with individual people as customers and not corporate entities should have fiduciary responsibility.
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Sep 21, 2017 21:45
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Taerkar posted:Just leave all of your posts around to really drive the price down! j/k It's okay, I'm trash.
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Sep 21, 2017 21:45
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On Terra Firma posted:As a agent I think that if you're a realtor you should be bound by a fiduciary duty to your clients and if you break that you're beaten within an inch of your life. I'm not exaggerating or joking either. Even better. You forfeit all of your assets to the people that you broke that duty to. THEN you're beaten to within an inch of your life.
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Sep 21, 2017 21:46
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Taerkar posted:Even better. what about being tarred and feathered afterwards? that sounds like it'd be fun 
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Sep 21, 2017 21:49
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Trabisnikof posted:And you're arguing it is literally impossible for racism to influence which neighborhoods you gave food and household items since leftists did it. You know there's such thing as contacting community leaders and talking with them about it to see what areas need help the most or you know, joining with other organizations or community institutions like churches to put on these things and knowing where to put them on like it's not hard to actually make sure you put in the thought and effort to know what you're doing is the right thing, and if you can't do that, seek out others who have those answers. That's what I'm talking about. If you have elements of racism that are unforeseen from the left, there exist people who will call it out and it will be fixed. Even within the left. There are plenty of avenues to make sure action or policy or legislation is sound.
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Sep 21, 2017 21:50
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boner confessor posted:me making fun of a guy who thinks building new public housing in the current political economy is at all something which could happen on a practical level in the united states I've brought up this sort of analogy before (though not in this thread I don't think), but this is sort of like telling someone in the 1820's that being an abolitionist is dumb because ending slavery isn't currently politically viable and won't be in the near future. The key problem with this logic stems from the fact that it confuses "voting" with "expressing opinions." Like, I agree Democrats are superior to Republicans and will always faithfully vote for them in any election with the remote possibility of being contested, but that doesn't mean I can't also express my actual beliefs. The status quo would never significantly change if no one ever advocated for anything that wasn't politically viable in the immediate to near future. Movements start small and grow, and that growth would never take place if everyone who considered joining the movement went "nah, there's no way this is gonna happen any time soon." So even if something like widespread free public housing isn't going to happen any time soon, there's still value in openly advocating for it.
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Sep 21, 2017 21:51
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Condiv posted:what about being tarred and feathered afterwards? that sounds like it'd be fun By that point I don't think they can say no.
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Sep 21, 2017 21:53
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Phi230 posted:You know there's such thing as contacting community leaders and talking with them about it to see what areas need help the most Correct, and maybe you shouldn't be so quick to jump down the throat of the people who want those elements included in discussion of policy rather than declare "they're calling all leftists racists" and get really mad about it? The New Deal and the Great Society are two excellent examples of strong programs that failed to engage in those sorts of community integrations.
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Sep 21, 2017 21:54
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Trabisnikof posted:Correct, and maybe you shouldn't be so quick to jump down the throat of the people who want those elements included in discussion of policy rather than declare "they're calling all leftists racists" and get really mad about it? The thing is I don't trust a centrist or rightward to have the integrity to not tolerate racism or sacrifice the quality or strength of a program to appear bipartisan or appear more 'electable.' or I should rephrase, I don't trust a centrist to not compromise with racists Phi230 fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Sep 21, 2017 |
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Sep 21, 2017 21:56
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Ytlaya posted:So even if something like widespread free public housing isn't going to happen any time soon, there's still value in openly advocating for it. sure, so long as you realize it's not feasible in the short or even medium term as a practical solution to current problems like, the federal government is barred from directly funding public housing in many circumstances. ok, so we create HUD and implement workarounds like housing vouchers and community block grants. works great, until cities themselves lose the political will to continue public housing, oh and also the current presidental administration deliberately sabotages HUD i'm less interested in discussing the oughts of is/ought because that seems to be something people mostly get involved with itt so they can crow about how morally superior they are. it seems more practical to me to discuss what can be done right here and now Trabisnikof posted:Correct, and maybe you shouldn't be so quick to jump down the throat of the people who want those elements included in discussion of policy rather than declare "they're calling all leftists racists" and get really mad about it? his behavior is entirely consistent with someone who just wants to impotently troll a thread rather than discuss practical solutions so i dunno if scolding is going to work here boner confessor fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Sep 21, 2017 |
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Sep 21, 2017 21:56
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Trabisnikof posted:The New Deal and the Great Society are two excellent examples of strong programs that failed to engage in those sorts of community integrations. Were outright set up to exclude in some (most?) cases.
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Sep 21, 2017 21:56
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Better to do nothing at all than to attempt to do something and accidentally screw up, the d&d philosophy.
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Sep 21, 2017 21:59
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Taerkar posted:Even better. 
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Sep 21, 2017 22:00
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Nanomashoes posted:Better to do nothing at all than to attempt to do something and accidentally screw up, the d&d philosophy. Someone has been reading the climate change thread I see
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Sep 21, 2017 22:01
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axeil posted:This is also a good post and it's about one of my key frustrations: how do we solve the bad actor problem? I don't really have any answers but I'm coming to believe that a lot of the problems in modern America can be tied back to bad actors abusing the system for their own gain. of course it can! regulations on corporate and financial activity have been dismantled continuously for the last 30 years for a reason - to let bad actors act badly.
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Sep 21, 2017 22:08
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Trabisnikof posted:The New Deal and the Great Society are two excellent examples of strong programs that failed to engage in those sorts of community integrations. early feminists excluded black women too that doesn't mean that feminism is racist
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Sep 21, 2017 22:08
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