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-Anders posted:A sailor onboard one of the Danish vessels taking part in an exercise in the Baltic sea got killed yesterday, by getting stuck in a watertight hatch and squeezed to death. poo poo sucks man. That's one of my worst nightmares. Poor guy.
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Sep 19, 2017 22:58
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maffew buildings posted:Yeah we had prevention training three weeks ago. Who the gently caress gundecked it and signed his name when he wasn't there??? The issue stems from that the training by FFSC produces measurable results on paper. They can report X Sailors/Marines sought help at FFSC, and that is a measurable success that people are happy with, but fails to address the underlying issue of leadership, mentor ship, and knowing your co-workers down AND up the chain. In a perfect world, the seaman could spot that another divisions LCPO was having a hard time over the past few days and be able to approach him and use ACT, likewise for the CO to directly approach anyone under him and use ACT. Our rigidity and infrastructure we have in place directly works against this though. It's a balance we desperately need to find for this issue within all of us, and the organization itself, but currently feels like informational training by an outside organization is the best we've cared to come up with. During my time in, I've seen more Senior Sailors commit suicide yet more junior Sailors actively seek help, maybe it's a generational change, maybe it's that younger people will seek help with less reluctance, or maybe it's a simple attention seeking cry for help. Every time it happens, I recall something my old doc on the boat told me. "It's not the young nub I worry about, he needs some rest and just someone that he can vent too. It's the guy thats been here for a while that one day just stops talking, he's the one I pull aside, because that motherfucker will do it."
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Sep 19, 2017 23:16
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Maybe theres less of a stigma about getting help now because they bombard you with 'get help' stuff, and the senior sailors still see it that way?
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Sep 20, 2017 09:44
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Blackchamber posted:Maybe theres less of a stigma about getting help now because they bombard you with 'get help' stuff, and the senior sailors still see it that way? That combined with a slight case of looking back on life and having a bit of an achievement crisis, as in when I got out I was behind my peers in virtually every way (most of my friends have masters degrees at this point) except for being able to land a decent paying job almost as soon as I got out and then upgrade from there. The Navy destroyed my most of my friendships and my engagement to my ex, on the plus side, I still live by myself and can spend a lot of my money on whatever and still put some away in investments. The military is pretty poo poo if you are trying to have a meaningful relationship with anyone due to long deployments and work stress though. The longer you are in the higher the likelihood of having a look back at the mess you've left in your wake and going "what the gently caress" unless you are 100% gung ho super devoted to the military life.
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Sep 20, 2017 10:31
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In the Seabees that training is 100% check a box and we do not hear about reaching out for help with any sincerity, at least not in battalions
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Sep 20, 2017 14:19
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poopkitty posted:http://www.fox30jax.com/news/florida/navy-removes-workers-who-called-babies-mini-satans/611500760 They were corpsmen doing that.
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Sep 20, 2017 16:23
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Woh. Phone posting so no link, but I guess new guidelines have been issued for surface fleet sleep requirements... 5 and dimes may be going away
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Sep 21, 2017 22:06
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Boon posted:Woh. Phone posting so no link, but I guess https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/09/20/navy-issues-new-sleep-and-watch-schedule-rules-for-the-surface-fleet/ I haven't seen the message, but basically captains have to pick a prescribed watch schedule, submit it for approval, and stick with it. They're saying that sailors are going to have enforced protective sleep, but I still don't see how they're going to let people sleep in their racks during the day regardless. This is going to meet a lot of resistance from the treefort, I think. Edit: also  loving surfor guidance now that moboards must be used in both the pilothouse and combat for anything with a sub 2.5nm cpa and the navy will turn on AIS when transiting high traffic areas now.
Mr. Nice! fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Sep 21, 2017 |
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Sep 21, 2017 22:19
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Mr. Nice! posted:https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/09/20/navy-issues-new-sleep-and-watch-schedule-rules-for-the-surface-fleet/ LOL at moboards for 5k CPA. If this isn't a sign of how old and outdated the people at the top are. Moboards will fix it all! There are at least 5(?, I don't know for surface, we had plenty on the sub with less information than the surface) different things calculating CPA on everything 1000 times faster than any maneuvering board could keep up with. Also, protected sleep doesn't mean poo poo. poo poo will break, drills will still happen, training will still happen, and sailors will have to sacrifice sleep to meet all of those, and that time isn't coming out of watch.
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Sep 21, 2017 22:24
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Null Integer posted:LOL at moboards for 5k CPA. If this isn't a sign of how old and outdated the people at the top are. Moboards will fix it all! There are at least 5(?, I don't know for surface, we had plenty on the sub with less information than the surface) different things calculating CPA on everything 1000 times faster than any maneuvering board could keep up with. See that second half is where I think the mess will pushback, and it will be interesting to see how this all shakes out. Also if the Fitz bridge/CiC had been doing moboards, they probably wouldn't have crashed. Moboards aren't a bad thing, and being able to hand plot stuff is still useful even with the wide amount of electronic sensors available. Most standing orders I've seen had something similar already for anything under 5 mile cpa (normally because it also involved notifying the captain) so this really isn't too crazy.
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Sep 21, 2017 22:41
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My personal opinion of moboard is that they're not a productive use of watchkeeping resources, and I can't recall using one outside a simulator. Maybe once for training. That being said I've been in situations where a paper plot would have been useful, so if you've got the manpower, awesome. As for protected sleep, could you have berthing based on watches?
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Sep 21, 2017 22:50
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FrozenVent posted:My personal opinion of moboard is that they're not a productive use of watchkeeping resources, and I can't recall using one outside a simulator. Maybe once for training. We did moboards all the time in both pilothouses I was in. They're extremely effective for helping to learn how two things are moving relative to one another. We would use moboards for everything from CPA, wind speed, replenishment approaches, etc. The other half of saying there are electronic sensors is that they aren't always working. Paper plots aren't quite as useful as moboards when you're navigating traffic. They're good anytime you're anywhere near land as a failsafe, but rarely even out on the bridge because out in open ocean they provide little useful information. For the sleep issue, that would actually work pretty well. Many ships are split up with battle berthings anyways to minimize impact if an entire berthing was lost to casualty, so splitting them up by watch shouldn't be too hard either.
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Sep 21, 2017 22:58
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Mr. Nice! posted:See that second half is where I think the mess will pushback, and it will be interesting to see how this all shakes out. I feel it may start some critical thinking in the mess beyond "It's broke, and needs to be fixed soon or else I have to address it to someone else via what maintenance trackers exist now". I've seen a division get swamped with 1600 new work, and LPO and Chief accepted it without second thought, while new leadership in the division would still get passed the 1600 new work, but have the ability to determine if it can wait until the morning/a shift that could better support the maintenance. Operationally nothing that needed fixed ASAP wasn't fixed ASAP, while stuff that could wait for bit still got fixed with no impact to operational capability, all it took was some common sense and a pair of balls to brief a plan to the DIVO/DH which was 95% they where happy with.
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Sep 21, 2017 23:04
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I'm an ~information warrior~ with no SWO experience, but: the only benefit I can think of from moboards would be that they force you to be actively thinking about whatever you're plotting, andyou get instant feedback if you're getting distracted.The moboard won't get done because you aren't doing it, as opposed to self-calculating sensors. Also on this broad vein: http://www.informationdissemination.net/2017/09/the-us-navy-and-terrible-horrible-no.html Pretty good discussion on some of the CNO's comments. The biggest takeaway is: there is no history of a captain being rewarded for delaying deployment because of a lack of confidence in training and material readiness, thus there is no incentive to do so and all the massive disincentives that encourage the "just say yes" attitude still exist.
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Sep 21, 2017 23:29
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The whole point is for enhanced situational awareness. Moboards help with that and understanding what's going on around you.
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Sep 21, 2017 23:46
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Regarding the whole protected sleep thing: There are ships that have made it work. It can be done. Those who have made it work speak positively of it. Its interesting to see how much resistance immediately springs up when something new is proposed, even if it is something that might help, you know, not loving crash ships into other ships.
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Sep 22, 2017 00:01
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Electronics are great but you gotta keep the paper skills handy. More than once in a dicey transit our entire nav system poo poo the bed and I was one of the few QM types who could crank a fix onto a paper chart in a few seconds and start a DR plot while lookouts fumbled with alidades looking for stuff to shoot for a fix.
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Sep 22, 2017 00:19
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vulturesrow posted:Regarding the whole protected sleep thing: There are ships that have made it work. It can be done. Those who have made it work speak positively of it. Its interesting to see how much resistance immediately springs up when something new is proposed, even if it is something that might help, you know, not loving crash ships into other ships. Because it really takes being able to say "No, we can't do that right now" instead of "Yes Sir" while gargling their balls. It also needs to respected by the highers, instead of having them flip poo poo. This happens at all levels from DH on down. Its a culture shift and those are hard. Sometimes tasks need to be prioritized and shifted around while expectations get managed.
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Sep 22, 2017 00:34
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Laranzu posted:Because it really takes being able to say "No, we can't do that right now" instead of "Yes Sir" while gargling their balls. It also needs to respected by the highers, instead of having them flip poo poo. This happens at all levels from DH on down. Its a culture shift and those are hard. I've learned one thing as first so far. You can say "No" to people that ask impossible things, just make sure that's not the only thing you have. Have a plan, suggestion, alternative. I don't know what level it stops becoming acceptable to say "No, but here is what we are working with and the timeline." It's a toxic culture thing we have going for us when even the highest levels of our leadership can not and will not say "No" because it will end a career of hard service. If I ever make it to the higher levels of service, it's one thing I will try my loving hardest not to succumb to. /end serious navy talk. Boats are gay, lol if your still in.
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Sep 22, 2017 01:16
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I think you guys are really underestimating how hard that "No" can really be. Let's pretend you've got an air wing that during workups has several days with near mid-air collisions due to mediocre airmanship. Let's pretend the aggressors win as often as they lose. Air-to-surface targets are not effectively serviced because weaponeering skills are lacking, as is aerial proficiency. "Here are the results CAG." "Well, clearly we're not ready to deploy. Put the CSG on hold, let me make some calls to get another $3-5M so we can run through another 4 weeks of workups." Get loving real.
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Sep 22, 2017 01:21
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In your example at least cag and the csg know their deficiencies (nobody's sugarcoating those debriefs) and how to train to their weaknesses, tactically schedule aircrew, etc. The culture in aviation tends towards brutally honest self-assessment and there are no shortage of reps for aircrew going on deployment. Even fdnf aircrew are getting lots of looks at the full range of missions. I get the impression that the surface force (especially fdnf) is not getting the same opportunities. It also helps that the hardest mission sets that aircrew perform are basically the ones they're performing on deployment. Our biggest problem is how dangerous it is to go from nothing to full throttle training in a month's time. I would be far more concerned about how the ship handles the high stress evolutions than anything I would be doing in the air. In fact I was always happiest when I wasn't on the boat. At least I was responsible for myself, could shoot back or even divert (most of the time). Nothing worse than sitting inside the ship during straits transit...
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Sep 22, 2017 01:51
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Geizkragen posted:The culture in aviation tends towards brutally honest self-assessment and there are no shortage of reps for aircrew going on deployment. Even fdnf aircrew are getting lots of looks at the full range of missions. Not enough. In another environment I can go into detail, but naval aviation is not where it thinks it is and it's sure as poo poo not where it acts like it is.
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Sep 22, 2017 02:33
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Godholio posted:Let's pretend you've got an air wing that during workups has several days with near mid-air collisions due to mediocre airmanship. Let's pretend the aggressors win as often as they lose. Air-to-surface targets are not effectively serviced because weaponeering skills are lacking, as is aerial proficiency. Man, I wish we were just pretending... I've been considering for a while making an effortthread on training, funding, readiness, etc in the wake of this recent Summer of Hell. I think there could be some good discussion there as long as I can figure out how to make it OPSEC-friendly.
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Sep 22, 2017 02:41
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What if we fired all the chiefs? Would that help?
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Sep 22, 2017 02:59
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We got good because we were doing continual low intensity training all the time that wasn't occupied with actual stuff. I saw the shift from mediocre to excellent over 4 years. It was 100% a culture shift as people actually started being optimistic and motivated. Toxic people left or changed, newer people had solid qualification processes. By the end people knew their poo poo enough to know when to say no, knew enough to solve emergent issues, and could be trusted to not be shitbags. Most importantly when people were delegated tasks they were left to them without micromanagement (because they were trusted) and feeling that responsibility they rose to the challenge (Because they weren't badly trained and felt confident and important.) Feeling competent and important really seemed to be the truing point. Although my favorite pre-deployment training was conducting ISR on the Catalina island Jazz festival as a few people with sail boats kept trying to find us and get the smallest CPA they could manage. The sea lanes around there are packed and they still weren't the worst we saw. I'm convinced the lot of them were actively competing, they would do 180 degree turns and wave ribbons while plowing right toward the scope. Null Integer posted:Boats are gay, lol if your still in. 100 sailors go under and cry themselves to sleep in each others arms as 20 jodies float through base housing.
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Sep 22, 2017 03:02
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Wingnut Ninja posted:Man, I wish we were just pretending... I don't know where you fit into this one, but it was pretty rough compared to most of the others I've seen. But one of wing's O-6s loving gets it. He stood up at the end of a mass debrief and laid it out there...it was not a "hey we're getting through this" or a "you'll do better next time" or even a "hey, it's Fallon amirite?" speech. It was a candid and accurate assessment of where they were as professional combat aviators and how their performance was likely to serve them if the poo poo hits the fan. I wanted to loving applaud when he was done.
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Sep 22, 2017 03:36
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Mr. Nice! posted:https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/09/20/navy-issues-new-sleep-and-watch-schedule-rules-for-the-surface-fleet/ Every submarine has people sleeping in their racks during the day every day. What is so important during the day on a surface ship that you have to have everybody awake? I seriously can't think of any possible benefit to be gained from waking everybody up.
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Sep 22, 2017 04:11
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Cerekk posted:Every submarine has people sleeping in their racks during the day every day. What is so important during the day on a surface ship that you have to have everybody awake? I seriously can't think of any possible benefit to be gained from waking everybody up. Because they hate the idea of someone sleeping during the day. The less resistance on subs thing is partially because subs wind up hot racking.
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Sep 22, 2017 04:18
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Cerekk posted:Every submarine has people sleeping in their racks during the day every day. What is so important during the day on a surface ship that you have to have everybody awake? I seriously can't think of any possible benefit to be gained from waking everybody up. Gotta clean shipmate! And do you expect a cook to stay up and cook a fourth meal??!?!? GET REAL
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Sep 22, 2017 04:19
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Yeah once again submarines are superior to all targets 
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Sep 22, 2017 04:25
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Cerekk posted:Every submarine has people sleeping in their racks during the day every day. What is so important during the day on a surface ship that you have to have everybody awake? I seriously can't think of any possible benefit to be gained from waking everybody up. You're for real? Every merchant ship has people asleep during the day. I used to work 0000-1100 and sleep during the afternoon
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Sep 22, 2017 04:28
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Two Finger posted:You're for real? Every merchant ship has people asleep during the day. I used to work 0000-1100 and sleep during the afternoon My last job sailing I worked a 6/6 schedule; 0000-0600, 1200-1800... the most sleep I could get was 5 hours in a period reasonably. I tried to get them to do an 8/4/4/8 that they did on one dredge I worked on-that was the tits; I'd sleep 7 hours on my long off time, lift and laundry on the 4 hours off. Even on the 8 hours on the captain would do a relief for either dinner or breakfast. The senior mate stood the 00-08 watch so the captain felt the more experienced guy was up there while he was racked out.
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Sep 22, 2017 04:46
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The best part about patrol boats was no workday underway. I mean, if poo poo had to get done you got it done 100% and that might mean only 4 hours of sleep, but there was just no busy work.
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Sep 22, 2017 05:16
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Two Finger posted:You're for real? Every merchant ship has people asleep during the day. I used to work 0000-1100 and sleep during the afternoon The sheer amount of poo poo we had to go through to justify sleeping during the day was unbelievable. We worked 1800-0600 (really 0900 after the morning brief) Chiefs would still routinely roll through berthing and yell at us for being asleep during some retarded cleaning stations.
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Sep 22, 2017 05:17
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Cerekk posted:Every submarine has people sleeping in their racks during the day every day. What is so important during the day on a surface ship that you have to have everybody awake? I seriously can't think of any possible benefit to be gained from waking everybody up. I can only speak to two deployments on one CG but we didn't have a problem with anyone in berthing during the day. First deployment no one gave any fucks, second you needed a late sleepers chit which was easy to get assuming you had a need. When I was on 5 on 7 off/7 on 5 off when we had 2 CSCs during the 5 off I'd normally pass out in the shop and no one gave me any poo poo there either. I suppose we were lucky. One of our local guys died in his sleep last night, he was a retired ETCM who retired two years ago, dude was always stressed the gently caress out at work and showed pretty clear signs of alcoholism last year, but seemed to be getting better. I guess 30 years in the Navy has terrible effects on the body and psyche (SHOCKING!). Be sure to take care of yourselves regardless if youre still in (lol) or if you're out. A job isn't worth dying for, and that's what the Navy is, a job. Of course I'm probably not one to give advice, the Navy gave me loving awful insomnia and anxiety that I'm still dealing with.
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Sep 22, 2017 05:26
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Godholio posted:I think you guys are really underestimating how hard that "No" can really be. First of all you, you are talking about a completely different thing than the poster you are responding to. And as for your assessment of Naval Aviation, even if I assume that your pessimistic assessment is really true, we are still leagues ahead of the surface world in terms of self-assessment, etc. The surface force is inching in the right direction but have a long ways to go.
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Sep 22, 2017 08:28
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Geizkragen posted:In your example at least cag and the csg know their deficiencies (nobody's sugarcoating those debriefs) and how to train to their weaknesses, tactically schedule aircrew, etc. No, the surface was in FDNF was not afforded the same opportunities. We were always expected to be operational. Hell, when one of your ship's is completing missions 20 days after they get out of an ESRA, you have huge issues. So the other day VADM Rowden came out and looked at the ships here in Yokosuka. From what he told us, he was left very confused and essentially scared at how we have been left to operate for the past few years. Operations came before everything else. He told our wardroom that we out here in the FDNF have essentially eaten all of our Phase II (wartime readiness) time because of what we do on a daily basis. He's hoping to change the surface officer to be more like the aviation path (his words). At least for the surface officers. He really seemed to get that we don't train our SWOs in nearly the same way that we train our aviators. It's unfortunate that it took 17 sailors dead to figure that out. I don't know exactly how much detail I can get into with what he spoke to us about. All I know is, I get why my last CO on my last ship liked VADM Rowden so much. Yes, he's a 3 star, but I do genuinely think he wants to fix what's wrong with the surface navy.
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Sep 22, 2017 09:58
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Godholio posted:I don't know where you fit into this one, but it was pretty rough compared to most of the others I've seen. But one of wing's O-6s loving gets it. He stood up at the end of a mass debrief and laid it out there...it was not a "hey we're getting through this" or a "you'll do better next time" or even a "hey, it's Fallon amirite?" speech. It was a candid and accurate assessment of where they were as professional combat aviators and how their performance was likely to serve them if the poo poo hits the fan. I wanted to loving applaud when he was done. Other than knowing that you live in the same poo poo hole I just left I don't know where you fit in either. Until recently I was part of the group delivering the asskicking you were describing. Airwings have been having those moments for a couple of years now. I'd like to believe that there's a whole lot of "back in my day" nostalgia going but there is a whole team of outside people contracted to give the Navy feedback on how the fleet is performing and I've seen the raw numbers across the whole work up cycle. It's not pretty and everyone knows it. I think you might be conflating our standard wings of gold bravado with an actual belief that we're good at anything but landing on a boat. Sequestration hosed the fleet and the secaf and the cno aren't lying or engaging in hyperbole when they talk about another round breaking the force.
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Sep 22, 2017 11:25
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So, might be spending some time in Bremerton, anyone have recommendations on what to hit up to eat?
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Sep 22, 2017 16:33
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Chuckle posted:So, might be spending some time in Bremerton, anyone have recommendations on what to hit up to eat? Silvercity Brewery is decent. Nothing amazing in Bremerton. My house in Port Orchard has good crab cakes in season and decent BBQ from time to time.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:41
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