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El Pollo Blanco posted:Your 'entirely anecdotal perception problem' and describing some leftists as being a 'bit glib' about minority issues is telling. Why should minorities trust that leftists actually have their best interests at heart when their concerns are often written off like this, just as an appropriation of Liberals to attack leftists more? This is a little nauseating, given how readily centrists erase people of color, women, and LGBT folks who support a more leftist agenda. And "minorities" should trust that leftists actually have their best interests at heart, if those leftists show that they understand and give a poo poo about their interests. I'm sorry, but your whole line of argument is pretty unconvincing, given how often leftists here are told that people who pushed for welfare reform and the '94 crime bill are "the candidate(s) of black people." Majorian fucked around with this message at 08:35 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 08:33
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Majorian posted:This is a little nauseating, given how readily centrists erase people of color, women, and LGBT folks who support a more leftist agenda. This is disingenuous whataboutism at its best, and does not address anything I have said.
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Sep 22, 2017 08:39
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El Pollo Blanco posted:This is disingenuous whataboutism at its best, and does not address anything I have said. Your "criticism" is only valid if you present a better alternative, which you do not, on account of cherry picking which voices get to be heard and which get to be silenced.
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Sep 22, 2017 08:41
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El Pollo Blanco posted:This is disingenuous whataboutism at its best, and does not address anything I have said. All of your posts so far in this discussion have been some of the most shameless whataboutism I've ever seen. I mean, look at this poo poo: El Pollo Blanco posted:I agree, a lot of leftists idealistically feel that Keynesian or some form of Nordic model (lol) econ policy alone can fix racism, in pretty much the same way that Libertarians think that free-market economics fixes racism through their stupid rational actor theory. No one here is arguing that. 
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Sep 22, 2017 08:42
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imo, economic justice and social justice are both important, cause without both you can't have actual justice. both need to be pursued at the same time, and progress in one can help with progress in the other imo. if you meet someone who's telling you that social justice is unimportant, they're not actually leftist. we might be able to get them to vote for the dems with good policies on economic justice, but dems should not give up on social justice to appeal to them. ditto for the other way around. the dems should not hide from economic justice and focus only on social justice to appeal to socially-liberal/economically-conservative types PoC both need to be treated like human beings in this nation and that involves both making sure they're not being murdered by police and being redlined out of certain areas, but also that they are receiving equal pay for their work, good pay for their work that lets them live a decent life, and equal access to jobs
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Sep 22, 2017 08:44
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Why do the "we can't focus too much on the economy when we should be fixing racism" literally never talk at all about how to fix racism.
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Sep 22, 2017 08:46
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Did I miss housing chat? I just wanted to say that every drat apartment complex that goes up should be forced to take 10% subsidised tennants. Normally my solution is massive construction projects, but that doesnt work well for housing. I think we should strive to eliminate low income as a concept all together in housing. Not in the gentrifying poor areas, but in the going forward gently caress you this rich apartment complex will take a portion of people in need of housing. I hate the trend of all subsidised housing going in just certain neighborhoods. Its modern day segregation and it is sick. Also gently caress this year for making it impossible to know if im left or liberal or a cuck.
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Sep 22, 2017 08:46
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a specific social justice policy i would like to see the dems go in hard on is ending the war on drugs. civil asset forfeiture, imprisonment for marijuana, etc are used to suppress minorities, and always have been. black people are arrested for drug use at a much greater rate than white people despite using drugs much less. civil asset forfeiture is used to steal whatever wealth they manage to accumulate and hand it to white people at a discount, which has been something racists have been doing since jim crow and probably earlier than that. worse yet, the war on drugs is used as an easy way to get more free prison labor, which is being sold to companies all of that has to stop
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Sep 22, 2017 08:47
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Majorian posted:All of your posts so far in this discussion have been some of the most shameless whataboutism I've ever seen. I mean, look at this poo poo: How is this whataboutism? I'm pointing out that I do not believe that economic solutions alone will solve these issues, but I still believe everyone's lives will be made better through leftist economic policy. steinrokkan posted:Why do the "we can't focus too much on the economy when we should be fixing racism" literally never talk at all about how to fix racism. I'm saying that in order to fix both at the same time, you need a big tent of leftism that embraces the concerns of a lot of different groups.
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Sep 22, 2017 08:50
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Condiv posted:imo, economic justice and social justice are both important, cause without both you can't have actual justice. I agree with this p much 100%.
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Sep 22, 2017 08:50
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El Pollo Blanco posted:I'm saying that in order to fix both at the same time, you need a big tent of leftism that embraces the concerns of a lot of different groups. The current progressive movement is as a big tent as it gets. Judging its overall dynamics on the words of a small number of misguided reductionists is clearly not arguing in good faith. Imagine if the whole Democratic party had to make an address every time one of their supporters said something stupid. There is clearly a double standard where the progressives have to apologize for every misstep of anybody vaguely associated with them, while the Dems get the benefit of the doubt even after decades of screwing over their constituents. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 08:57 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 08:54
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El Pollo Blanco posted:How is this whataboutism? I'm pointing out that I do not believe that economic solutions alone will solve these issues, but I still believe everyone's lives will be made better through leftist economic policy. Your posts strongly suggested that you thought leftists here disagree with that position, when that's not the case: El Pollo Blanco posted:Have you considered the possibility that the criticism of the leftist position of 'only economic leftism will solve racism/sexism etc' doesn't only come from centrist Liberals? Like it's possible to believe in genuinely leftist economic positions, but also criticise leftists' constant mockery of social justice issues they see as coming from a place of wealthy Liberal privilege? This isn't some dumb zero sum game. I mean, seriously, who did you think you were arguing against here?
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Sep 22, 2017 08:55
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Condiv posted:a specific social justice policy i would like to see the dems go in hard on is ending the war on drugs. civil asset forfeiture, imprisonment for marijuana, etc are used to suppress minorities, and always have been. I agree 100%. I grew up in a county that constantly got in hot poo poo for basically being racist SOB's and it steams me like nothing else when I read about those counties on the border with LA getting all that money by stealing people's cars as they cross from Louisiana.
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Sep 22, 2017 09:03
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Kinda left wondering why some concerns over racial issues is being taken as a repudiation of the movement.
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Sep 22, 2017 09:10
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Der Waffle Mous posted:Kinda left wondering why some concerns over racial issues is being taken as a repudiation of the movement. it's related to primary chat, and so cannot be fully discussed here
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Sep 22, 2017 09:11
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:
We're all cucks here. Also it's actually real easy to fight for more than one thing at a time, so if someone is giving you that better season bullshit they aren't fighting for anything but a status quo you'd like to change. Not a good ally, SAD.
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Sep 22, 2017 09:12
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I think my problem is the ways id change things differ in some respects that make people want to make me out to be an entirely different faction. It doesnt help that the definition of leftism has changed so much over the decades of my life. But still, we are definetly all cucks here.
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Sep 22, 2017 09:16
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El Pollo Blanco posted:Your 'entirely anecdotal perception problem' and describing some leftists as being a 'bit glib' about minority issues is telling. Why should minorities trust that leftists actually have their best interests at heart when their concerns are often written off like this, just as an appropriation of Liberals to attack leftists more? Well it's kind of a Catch-22 then, isn't it? If they can never prove their sincerity to the questioner's satisfaction because that questioner has been disappointed in the past, they eventually lose the incentive to even try.
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Sep 22, 2017 09:20
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:I think my problem is the ways id change things differ in some respects that make people want to make me out to be an entirely different faction. It doesnt help that the definition of leftism has changed so much over the decades of my life. just have faith in what you are. even i've been called a centrist before
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Sep 22, 2017 09:24
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Der Waffle Mous posted:Kinda left wondering why some concerns over racial issues is being taken as a repudiation of the movement. Because politically motivated accusations of sexism and racism are being used to attack and discredit the left. (NOTE: This post does not carry the implication that all such accusations are politically motivated.)
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Sep 22, 2017 09:32
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Der Waffle Mous posted:Kinda left wondering why some concerns over racial issues is being taken as a repudiation of the movement. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/2017/08/10/how_identity_politics_became_a_weapon_vs_the_left_418008.html
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Sep 22, 2017 12:44
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Der Waffle Mous posted:Kinda left wondering why some concerns over racial issues is being taken as a repudiation of the movement. People who proclaim themselves leftists on the internet have very thin skin. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 22, 2017 13:11
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Condiv posted:https://twitter.com/jcassano/status/910987746440892418 This is pretty disgusting. Russian shills swayed the election! Oh wait, here are some shills of our own. It's so throughly naked.
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Sep 22, 2017 13:12
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Thom Avella (an anarchist, admittedly) slams leftbook for being the worst kind of leftism (pro-authoritarian, anti-feminist, anti-sex workers, anti-asexuality): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ApOvcsNIYg So yeah, lots of "regular" leftists can be poo poo about idpol (and not just the rainbow capitalism variety of idpol).
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Sep 22, 2017 13:24
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Anti-asexuality is just so problematic.
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Sep 22, 2017 13:25
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Please please please take it to the dem thread Jesus loving Christ
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Sep 22, 2017 13:29
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Mostly not serious, though I do definitely remember some people trying to use it in very disparaging/insulting ways.
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Sep 22, 2017 13:39
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This is the dem thread now. The awful Democratic Party is a quintessential aspect of U.S. Politics.
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Sep 22, 2017 13:48
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Rex-Goliath posted:Please please please take it to the dem thread Jesus loving Christ Welcome to demthread Comrade
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Sep 22, 2017 13:57
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Pembroke Fuse posted:Thom Avella (an anarchist, admittedly) slams leftbook for being the worst kind of leftism (pro-authoritarian, anti-feminist, anti-sex workers, anti-asexuality): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ApOvcsNIYg Tbh, last I checked there's pro-sex worker feminists and anti-sex workers feminists. Not really sure on which side of that debate I fall...
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Sep 22, 2017 13:58
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Condiv posted:Tbh, last I checked there's pro-sex worker feminists and anti-sex workers feminists. Not really sure on which side of that debate I fall... There should be no feminists who are anti-sex workers, maybe some who are anti-sex work, though.
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Sep 22, 2017 14:07
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You should be pro sex worker and anti sex work. E: Or at least anti actually existing sex work.
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Sep 22, 2017 14:08
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Im not sure how pro pro authoritarian is either. I mean, when it comes to somethings I want the (Functional) state to step in. Using soldiers to enforce integration and what not. I dont really think the authority of the state is really something that everyone agrees on. Also there are like 4 waves of feminism with differing views on sex and sex workers.
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Sep 22, 2017 14:08
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Taintrunner posted:To not say that economic and racial injustice are not directly intertwined is directly ahistorical and utterly reprehensible. They are intertwined, yes. However, they are not literally the same. Economic inequality is a major factor in racial inequality, but if you waved your magic want and instantly abolished class and completely eliminated economic inequality, racial inequality would still exist. The effects would be lessened, but many would still be there. Discrimination has deep ties to economics, but it's become so deeply rooted in our culture that it goes well beyond just economics. Economics is definitely a very important piece of the problem, but the message can't stop there - and if your response to concerns like this is to dismiss them as centrist propaganda and go on to browbeat minorities for not being convinced by your message, then you're absolutely part of the problem. steinrokkan posted:The current progressive movement is as a big tent as it gets. Judging its overall dynamics on the words of a small number of misguided reductionists is clearly not arguing in good faith. Imagine if the whole Democratic party had to make an address every time one of their supporters said something stupid. What's wrong with apologizing? Why is it that when. presented with the concerns of actual minorities, you have to get super defensive and declare their opinions to be not only incorrect but also straight-up illegitimate? Yes, I think Bernie's policies would probably have been better for black Americans than Hillary's policies, but that doesn't mean they were obligated to recognize that and vote Bernie. He had to convince them and build relationships with minority communities, and his attempts there were largely too little, too late. You want to talk double standards? How about the fact that poor rural areas voting for Trump over Clinton is explained away as "well, she would've been better for them, but it's the candidate's job to convince people of that and she clearly failed", but the same justification isn't being applied to non-millenial minorities voting Hillary in the primary? I think I've drifted a bit away from my point, which is, again: what's wrong with apologizing? Minority communities have endured centuries of injustice, the least you could do is acknowledge that maybe their complaints have some merit and are worth listening to and engaging with, even if you don't agree with them yourself! When you get defensive and insist that their problems are made-up or so minimal that they must not be arguing in good faith, you're dismissing and minimizing their concerns and feelings as straight-up not valid. When you insist that there's no need to specifically talk about racial inequality because cops won't shoot non-poor black people, you're ignoring the very real problems they face and declaring that the injustices of their daily life don't merit special attention. Why can't you just say "yes, absolutely, racism is bad and racial equality is an important priority" without bracketing it with an indignant rant about how you don't need to apologize because it's a made-up problem invented by Hillary Clinton to bring leftists down?
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Sep 22, 2017 14:08
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:Im not sure how pro pro authoritarian is either. I mean, when it comes to somethings I want the (Functional) state to step in. Using soldiers to enforce integration and what not. I dont really think the authority of the state is really something that everyone agrees on. 1. Pro-authoritarian refers in this case to genuflecting towards or attempting to downplay the worst "excesses" of the USSR, PRC, NK and the rest. The left's answer to "there was no holocaust but I wish there were" is "there were no gulags, but I wish there were", etc. Obviously, I don't disagree with the notion that so long as you have and need states, you will be using state power to get things done. 2. SWERFs are pretty bad though. Also, not all waves were alike. Presumably we no longer subscribe to the "you gave n*****s the vote, how come white women can't vote?" wave of feminism.
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Sep 22, 2017 14:25
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I dunno man, I'm a Jew who's pretty upset sometimes by leftist antisemitism and the refusal to acknowledge and engage with it when it's pointed out. But uh that doesn't mean I need Bernie Sanders to publicly whip himself and apologize for the nasty attitudes of people who agree with some of his ideas. As far as I can tell leftists aren't proposing legislation or ideas that actively harm minorities (unlike dems in the 90s) unless there's something I'm missing. Like, lots of people in other minority rights groups end up subscribing to sometimes nasty antisemitic ideas as well but I'm not gonna refuse to support them unless they apologize to me because of the behavior of some people who are ideologically related. Why are leftists held to this standard but other groups aren't?
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Sep 22, 2017 14:38
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Casey Finnigan posted:I dunno man, I'm a Jew who's pretty upset sometimes by leftist antisemitism and the refusal to acknowledge and engage with it when it's pointed out. But uh that doesn't mean I need Bernie Sanders to publicly whip himself and apologize for the nasty attitudes of people who agree with some of his ideas. As far as I can tell leftists aren't proposing legislation or ideas that actively harm minorities (unlike dems in the 90s) unless there's something I'm missing. Like, lots of people in other minority rights groups end up subscribing to sometimes nasty antisemitic ideas as well but I'm not gonna refuse to support them unless they apologize to me because of the behavior of some people who are ideologically related. Why are leftists held to this standard but other groups aren't? please tell me who is asking Bernie to self-flagellate. There is a big difference between that and asking someone to denounce the shittiness of their supporters. (Which is why everyone wanted Trump to condemn neonazis, if you recall) It seems more and more that certain leftists are ready to throw black people under the bus because they're not getting their way. Racism is a thing that needs to be addressed, and it can not be fixed by economics alone. Bernie himself had said in the primary that economical changes were his anti-racism plan. He has put forward no plans to deal with the justice system, which needs to be fixed from top to bottom. No plans (that I recall) to deal with those hunting down black folks in the streets. Why would black people jump from a candidate who has been working with our community for decades to some guy who clearly does not want to make our interests a priority? And just everyone can get their poo poo straight: I am saying this as a black person who voted for Bernie in MI primary so you're loving welcome.
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Sep 22, 2017 14:47
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authoritarian "leftists" are tankies who just regurgitate russian nonsense and are seen as leftist because they say they're "anti-imperialist"  Main Paineframe posted:When you insist that there's no need to specifically talk about racial inequality because cops won't shoot non-poor black people, you're ignoring the very real problems they face and declaring that the injustices of their daily life don't merit special attention. Why can't you just say "yes, absolutely, racism is bad and racial equality is an important priority" without bracketing it with an indignant rant about how you don't need to apologize because it's a made-up problem invented by Hillary Clinton to bring leftists down? who is insisting that? that post certainly wasn't. of course racial injustice deserves special attention. what kind of idiot would claim that it didn't? the "made-up" part is the way any mention of how class and race are intersectional issues, or any discussion of class in general, is used to claim that leftists are not treating racial justice as a serious priority. there is a tendency in these discussions to read the other side as being as extreme as possible, in this instance, reading the posts you quoted as claiming that all criticism of the left on racial justice issues is illegitimate and coordinated by third way democrats. this is simply not true; when leftists misstep on racial justice issues, there are PoC within and outside of the left who rightly criticize, and this is good. there has been, however, an ongoing effort in the NYT, op-eds in general, and on twitter from the (almost entirely white) democratic establishment to straight-up lie about the demographics and opinions of bernie supporters, you know the stereotype by now - young white "bernie bros" who are racist and sexist and just want free stuff - thereby erasing PoC leftists, including extremely prominent ones like nina turner, in the process. these are separate phenomena. one is legitimate and the other is attempting to assassinate the movement's character because the democratic establishment genuinely believes in incrementalism for incrementalism's sake and are very uncomfortable with the idea that their base wants more ambitious ideas.
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Sep 22, 2017 14:52
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Casey Finnigan posted:I dunno man, I'm a Jew who's pretty upset sometimes by leftist antisemitism and the refusal to acknowledge and engage with it when it's pointed out. But uh that doesn't mean I need Bernie Sanders to publicly whip himself and apologize for the nasty attitudes of people who agree with some of his ideas. As far as I can tell leftists aren't proposing legislation or ideas that actively harm minorities (unlike dems in the 90s) unless there's something I'm missing. Like, lots of people in other minority rights groups end up subscribing to sometimes nasty antisemitic ideas as well but I'm not gonna refuse to support them unless they apologize to me because of the behavior of some people who are ideologically related. Why are leftists held to this standard but other groups aren't? Yeah, I mean, Donald Trump didn't apologize for having some open racists among his supporters, so why should anyone else have to? Clearly "maybe you should say that racism is bad" is just an unfair double standard demand cooked up by the dastardly centrist conspiracy to attack Bernie Sanders! Again, what exactly is wrong with saying "racism is bad"? What is wrong with condemning it and rejecting racists, instead of going on a defensive rant about how it doesn't really matter? Are you afraid that having the guts to acknowledge that racism exists everywhere will make you look worse than the movement whose most prominent member right now is a literal loving slaveowner? It's nice that you aren't bothered by it, but I'm also a Jewish person who's pretty upset about leftist antisemitism and it does bother me when people ignore it. I'm strongly pro-Palestine, but that doesn't mean I'm going to keep quiet and get defensive when a fellow member of the pro-Palestine movement says something anti-Semitic. If you don't want to hold yourself or groups you participate in to the same standard, good for you, but I'm going to hold them to that standard regardless of what you think about it because racism is too important of a problem to minimize and dismiss like that.
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Sep 22, 2017 14:54
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Koalas March posted:He has put forward no plans to deal with the justice system, which needs to be fixed from top to bottom. No plans (that I recall) to deal with those hunting down black folks in the streets. Why would black people jump from a candidate who has been working with our community for decades to some guy who clearly does not want to make our interests a priority? just entirely wrong https://berniesanders.com/issues/racial-justice/ quote:ADDRESSING PHYSICAL VIOLENCE
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