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Radish posted:From what I've read on charter schools they are a weird issue in terms of support. Like when you are a parent and have a kid and you don't have time for politicians to VERY slowly fix the educational system a decent charter school in your area is the best option. By the time things are fixed it could be a decade or never. A parent can absolutely support charter schools because they need immediate results for their kids and sometimes that's the only option they have if their district is massively underfunded. For politicians however there is really no excuse for pushing them over fixing the problems with our deteriorating educational system, especially when if you look at the results they aren't statistically better than public schools. By fixing I mean actually fixing and not bullshit like allowing Republican to destroy it slower or promising changes the smart people in charge will do if we just keep waiting forever. The same can be said about desegregation, can't it. People can have individual, selfish motive to block changes that are in the aggregate for the better, that's why the state exists - to override the individual motive, and establish a level playing field by saying no, you can't FYGM, you won't even get an option to FYGM. Though true, this may be a tough sell!
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Sep 22, 2017 16:06
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IIRC a recent pro charter study in Ohio was running the headline "charter school teachers only take ~6 days off a year while public teachers take 11." My numbers may be off and I don't want to give it views. The next 3 years are going to absolutely destroy education. They then blamed their students for the frequent F/D ratings that Ohio stupidly uses.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:07
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Radish posted:Even if they have a way around it, the fact that upper middle class people have to consider the massive discrepancies in terms of school quality when they buy homes is evidence that the system is crumbling. yeah i'm the upper middle class person staying up at night deciding whether or not i should buy the $750k mcmansion in a gated community or the $180k deferred maintenance brick ranch by the landfill (upper middle class people can just assume that the houses they buy are often in decent if not good school districts and way more often than not be correct)
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Sep 22, 2017 16:08
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Radish posted:From what I've read on charter schools they are a weird issue in terms of support. Like when you are a parent and have a kid and you don't have time for politicians to VERY slowly fix the educational system a decent charter school in your area is the best option. By the time things are fixed it could be a decade or never. A parent can absolutely support charter schools because they need immediate results for their kids and sometimes that's the only option they have if their district is massively underfunded. For politicians however there is really no excuse for pushing them over fixing the problems with our deteriorating educational system, especially when if you look at the results they aren't statistically better than public schools. By fixing I mean actually fixing and not bullshit like allowing Republican to destroy it slower or promising changes the smart people in charge will do if we just keep waiting forever. Charter schools also buy into the mantra of "test prep is the only education you need", when they're not outright lying about their numbers or (in the non-lottery schools) stacking themselves with selected students to raise their averages. Basically, Charter schools are a scam that seems good because in poor neighbourhoods, public schools are so bad that parents will clutch at any loving straw they can get. It's a scam that liberal politicians are happy to buy into because fixing education requires massive social and economic change... and no one has time for that poo poo.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:09
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Yes charter schools are terrible and will probably destroy education as we know it. But as a parent, if you believe the charter school provides a better opportunity than the vastly underfunded public school... ... The choice is easy. And unfortunately, it's a feedback loop. Less money goes to schools, schools get worse. The parents can't wait for the government to unfuck itself, and even then: it might not even reflect in a timely improvement in school for the parent's children.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:10
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boner confessor posted:yeah i'm the upper middle class person staying up at night deciding whether or not i should buy the $750k mcmansion in a gated community or the $180k deferred maintenance brick ranch by the landfill That's a pretty good problem to have!
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Sep 22, 2017 16:11
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I think part of the problem is that there are some racists in the leftist movement and we aren't seeing many white leftists denouncing them. When this pointed out a lot of white leftists get defensive instead of "Yeah gently caress them, they have no place in our movement". I think everyone here taking concerns seriously and speaking truth to power when it comes to calling out people in their own party would go a hell of a long way when it comes to recruiting more minorities under our umbrella.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:11
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:IIRC a recent pro charter study in Ohio was running the headline "charter school teachers only take ~6 days off a year while public teachers take 11." My numbers may be off and I don't want to give it views. The next 3 years are going to absolutely destroy education. This is really terrible. Teachers need days off to plan, recuperate and recover from the consistent bout of sickness they accrue as part of working in a public, non-sterile environment. Basically education in America is collapsing and may offset any of the gain made by the fact that younger people tend to trend left (i.e. idiots vote right).
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Sep 22, 2017 16:13
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Hasn't the DNC taken a turn away from charter schools recently? Like once it was found out they were being used as a giant scam.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:13
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Radish posted:That's a pretty good problem to have! it's not actually a problem is what i'm saying. upper middle class people theoretically can choose to buy no food but that doesn't make their on paper ability to experience acute hunger "a good problem to have"
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Sep 22, 2017 16:14
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Push El Burrito posted:Hasn't the DNC taken a turn away from charter schools recently? Like once it was found out they were being used as a giant scam. Probably not because neo-Liberals loving love charter schools everywhere?
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Sep 22, 2017 16:14
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Doctor Butts posted:if you believe the charter school provides a better opportunity than the vastly underfunded public school... That's the problem. This belief is often not justified in any way, shape or form.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:14
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El Pollo Blanco posted:Probably not because neo-Liberals loving love charter schools everywhere? Here's what I could find: quote:Democrats are also committed to providing parents with high-quality public school options and expanding these options for low-income youth. We support democratically governed great neighborhood public schools and high-quality public charter schools, and we will help them disseminate best practices to other school leaders and educators. Democrats oppose for-profit charter schools focused on making a profit off of public resources. We believe that high quality public charter schools should provide options for parents, but should not replace or destabilize traditional public schools. Charter schools must reflect their communities, and thus must accept and retain proportionate numbers of students of color, students with disabilities and English Language Learners in relation to their neighborhood public schools. We support increased transparency and accountability for all charter schools.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:16
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Koalas March posted:I think part of the problem is that there are some racists in the leftist movement and we aren't seeing many white leftists denouncing them. When this pointed out a lot of white leftists get defensive instead of "Yeah gently caress them, they have no place in our movement". I think everyone here taking concerns seriously and speaking truth to power when it comes to calling out people in their own party would go a hell of a long way when it comes to recruiting more minorities under our umbrella. Agreed, I remember a poo poo load of dog whistle racism about "Southern" Democrats. And true to "political as a team sport" people turning a blind eye to it coming from their side. But now it didn't happen? It is really interesting to watch people try to rewrite history and pretend that something that drat near ripped this forum apart never happened.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:17
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Xae posted:I remember a poo poo load of dog whistle racism about "Southern" Democrats. And true to "political as a team sport" people turning a blind eye to it coming from their side. the important thing to remember is that no matter what any specfic goon claims, two things are always true 1) goons will lie about their politics to perpetuate or win an argument 2) winning arguments is the most important thing in d&d, above and beyond anything else such as political coherency or orthodoxy (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 22, 2017 16:19
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safely sodomized posted:just entirely wrong So when Bernie puts things on his website it counts...
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Sep 22, 2017 16:21
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We really need to push for more funding for low-income and underperforming schools. The Detroit public school system is a disaster. I remember kids sharing textbooks (along with other horror stories) and of course you're going to score when you can't even take a book home to study and then they cut your funding so you can't pay for more loving books. Going from a rich white district to mine was whiplash. 'Fun' highschool story: We had a kid in highschool who cut off a dog's head and put it in the bathroom. He also left one of it's eyeballs in the water fountain. Everyone knew the kid was hosed up but drat. Also one guy got suspend for wearing a skirt. Our whole grade thought it was bullshit, we all threw a big fit and they let him come back. This was all 2003 ish.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:21
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boner confessor posted:the important thing to remember is that no matter what any specfic goon claims, two things are always true Hey it's called "debate and discussion", not "nuanced, good-faith positions considered fairly and in light of all available evidence".
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Sep 22, 2017 16:22
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Pembroke Fuse posted:This is really terrible. Teachers need days off to plan, recuperate and recover from the consistent bout of sickness they accrue as part of working in a public, non-sterile environment. Basically education in America is collapsing and may offset any of the gain made by the fact that younger people tend to trend left (i.e. idiots vote right). so glad I bailed after student teaching. Historically youth coming of voting age tend to vote for the party that has the presidency, really only offset by Bush 2. I think it's safe that Trump will be the second.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:22
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Destroy all charter schools, the future of humanity should not be left to the market. Hey everybody lets Equifax the education system! What a great idea! Also we're taking back American it means everyone, not idiot gullible racist shithead.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:23
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boner confessor posted:the important thing to remember is that no matter what any specfic goon claims, two things are always true
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Sep 22, 2017 16:23
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:so glad I bailed after student teaching. Montessori is good if you can get it. It does however have the problem of only teaching rich kids.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:24
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Xae posted:It is a testiment to the power of selective memory that people can forget the root cause of the biggest drama bomb in D&D history in so little time. I'm gonna be honest, I think this is more an indictment of people caring too much about an internet forum.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:26
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Pembroke Fuse posted:Montessori is good if you can get it. It does however have the problem of only teaching rich kids. maybe 6 years ago I'd be interested but I truly enjoy not actually working hard for better benefits.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:28
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Koalas March posted:We really need to push for more funding for low-income and underperforming schools. The Detroit public school system is a disaster. I remember kids sharing textbooks (along with other horror stories) and of course you're going to score when you can't even take a book home to study and then they cut your funding so you can't pay for more loving books. Yeah growing up in an underfunded school district and then going to a richy rich private university really puts it in relief. In my school students were treated like criminals by default by staff and a massive proportion of people I grew up with never went to college. My school district was majority black; one town over the majority white school district is still massively better funded, with teachers pulling six figure salaries compared to the miserable underpaid ones we had. It's a completely rigged game from the start and nobody in government seems to want to actually take it seriously. Also when I tried to work as an in-class tutor I discovered teaching is an outrageously hard job that totally sucks so I still don't get why most teachers make peanuts.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:30
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Yeah, I am a big proponent for higher teacher salaries. Especially in low-income schools where they often take on even more responsibilities.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:32
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Specifically taking it from certain religious private schools that are now getting tax credits, public funding and private gifting all in one go.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:33
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A huge problem with schooling in the US is that the biggest problem, local control, is also it's most popular thing. Parents like having control, they won't give it up with out a fight.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:35
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Xae posted:A huge problem with schooling in the US is that the biggest problem, local control, is also it's most popular thing. nationalize the kids
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Sep 22, 2017 16:36
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Koalas March posted:We really need to push for more funding for low-income and underperforming schools. The Detroit public school system is a disaster. I remember kids sharing textbooks (along with other horror stories) and of course you're going to score when you can't even take a book home to study and then they cut your funding so you can't pay for more loving books. agreed but there's no easy way to do it - school funding is determined at the most local level possible and it typically draws huge political attention if you propose a change i was lucky enough to go to a small school district in the rural south where the three families who controlled town politics for generations had realized the best way to stay in power forever was to just shovel more than half of the town's budget at the school system, which was lavishly funded. so even back in the mid 90's there was a computer in every classroom, teachers never had to pay out of pocket for supplies, etc. they spend over $100k on new musical instruments every few years. we had a robotics lab and my school was one third african american too! parents want the most amount of money going towards their kids, and unless there's a political structure in place to allow that to happen in an equitable manner, school inequality will continue to exist. and trying to change this is often construed as a direct attack against children. so far i dont know of any practical methods to change this other than counting on hyperlocal grassroots campaigns which could easily be reverted a decade down the line
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Sep 22, 2017 16:38
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Koalas March posted:I think part of the problem is that there are some racists in the leftist movement and we aren't seeing many white leftists denouncing them. When this pointed out a lot of white leftists get defensive instead of "Yeah gently caress them, they have no place in our movement". I think everyone here taking concerns seriously and speaking truth to power when it comes to calling out people in their own party would go a hell of a long way when it comes to recruiting more minorities under our umbrella. Please point me to these racists, I'm honestly curious.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:41
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Xae posted:Agreed, I remember a poo poo load of dog whistle racism about "Southern" Democrats. And true to "political as a team sport" people turning a blind eye to it coming from their side. But now it didn't happen? I don't think I've seen a single Clinton supporter condemn her or her campaign for her extremely dogwhistle-y underhandedness against Obama in '08...or, you know, for supporting some truly heinously racist poo poo in the 90's. Come on, dude, don't talk to us about rewriting history.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:41
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safely sodomized posted:just entirely wrong FWIW i remember pretty much exactly when Bernie added racial justice to his platform. It was after the 2nd time BLM interrupted a rally of his in August 2015. The first time he tried to argue, and the 2nd time he let them talk. He got targetted a 2nd time because he was still sticking to the old "if we fix class we fix race" position. It was a great time to be a bernie supporter because a lot of white supporters were extremely upset at BLM and wanted them to sit down and shut up. I'm not saying this is a majority of bernie supporters, but it was definitely a fight I had to have several times.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:44
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Chilichimp posted:Please point me to these racists, I'm honestly curious. They can't be racist, because they're leftists and "they hate racists" ergo, they don't exist.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:44
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Koalas March posted:I think part of the problem is that there are some racists in the leftist movement and we aren't seeing many white leftists denouncing them. When this pointed out a lot of white leftists get defensive instead of "Yeah gently caress them, they have no place in our movement". I think everyone here taking concerns seriously and speaking truth to power when it comes to calling out people in their own party would go a hell of a long way when it comes to recruiting more minorities under our umbrella. I really want to back this up. There is still a huuuuuuuuge problem with racism in leftist circles, Especially in the form of patronising horse poo poo. And ironically when we try to purge these elements people throw a poo poo fit about "circular firing squads" And "ideological purity" cause it is easier than self critting.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:45
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Koalas March posted:Yeah, I am a big proponent for higher teacher salaries. Especially in low-income schools where they often take on even more responsibilities. No one is prepared to wrap their heads around how.much more we should be paying teachers. Law school and a graduate teaching degree take equivalent time, investment, and intelligence . . . And teachers are.more useful to society. There are a lot of local level issues like this that I think Democrats could make headway on. Replacing the local taxation model for school funding and ensuring parity. Roads and infrastructure repair. Cheap local solar power. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 16:46
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Jaxyon posted:FWIW i remember pretty much exactly when Bernie added racial justice to his platform. It was after the 2nd time BLM interrupted a rally of his in August 2015. Given that he was running an issues campaign that wasn't aimed at winning (or doing as unexpectedly well as it did in challenging Clinton), that's a pretty fast response time. (his first response was terrible, I don't think anyone will deny that)
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Sep 22, 2017 16:46
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Jaxyon posted:They can't be racist, because they're leftists and "they hate racists" ergo, they don't exist. My post was sincere, my dude. I'm not saying they're mythical, I'm just saying "point at them so I know who they are."
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Sep 22, 2017 16:47
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Chilichimp posted:My post was sincere, my dude. I'm not saying they're mythical, I'm just saying "point at them so I know who they are." first off anyone who says there's no war but class war
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Sep 22, 2017 16:48
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boner confessor posted:first off anyone who says there's no war but class war I would call that narrow-minded, reductive, and symptomatic of a racial blind spot, but saying that people who make the claim are necessarily racist is pretty dumb.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:49
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