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Koalas March posted:Yeah, I am a big proponent for higher teacher salaries. Especially in low-income schools where they often take on even more responsibilities. Teaching seems to be the only profession where people refuse to use the argument "we need to pay them more to attract/keep better talent." If you get up to administrators, oh sure, they'll use that poo poo all day long, but rank and file people WHO IMPACT YOUR loving CHILDREN EVERY GOD DAMNED DAY, nope, can't have livable wages there. Growing up in a family of two teachers made me a little bitter on bullshit excuses people make not to treat teachers with respect. Edit dog tax 
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Sep 22, 2017 16:49
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Chilichimp posted:My post was sincere, my dude. I'm not saying they're mythical, I'm just saying "point at them so I know who they are." Would very legitimately like to echo this - I 100% don't expect KM to dig around because that's stupid, but would appreciate an "off the top of the head" example if possible, because she's 100% correct in stating that they do need to be denounced when present and just because I don't see them in my tiny-rear end circle doesn't mean they ain't there.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:50
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Chilichimp posted:Please point me to these racists, I'm honestly curious. Just follow my posts and social media. they always pop up with some bullshit. Like come on, you honestly can't believe that there are no leftist racists? Especially following D&D?? Maybe I should clarify that I am talking about average white leftists and not leaders.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:50
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Chilichimp posted:My post was sincere, my dude. I'm not saying they're mythical, I'm just saying "point at them so I know who they are." There's a certain subset of leftists who take the "Israel is a lovely oppressive state run by psychopaths" (true) view too far and run it into bad territory. An example would be how the organizers ejected a participant in the Dyke March for carrying a Star of David to express their identity as a Jewish lesbian. Then in the LGBT thread in E/N some fyad weirdo was claiming that the ejection was appropriate, because all Jews shoulder the blame for the actions of Israel, and they got some support among some posters there surprisingly. So that's one example from the Jewish perspective. Don't know how many people like this exist though.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:53
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Koalas March posted:Just follow my posts and social media. they always pop up with some bullshit. Like come on, you honestly can't believe that there are no leftist racists? Especially following D&D?? Okay, so imma just keep doin' what I do, which is help dogpile the Kales of the world when they pipe up with that bullshit.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:54
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Chilichimp posted:My post was sincere, my dude. I'm not saying they're mythical, I'm just saying "point at them so I know who they are." I'm white so KM can answer far better than me, but experience has ranged from not listening to PoC issues and experiences, microaggressing, to whites attempting to take over the space like we always try to do. I've also seen some out and out blaming minorities for problems in minority communities. The thing is, you can never call this out, because "leftists are against racism" and "we are the least racist political group". White people seldom listen and dismiss any of these accusations and that drives out PoC and they don't really care because, racist but won't admit it. They'd rather run an almost entirely white group and then call people drama queens or whatever. This also goes for sexism, a ton. Black woman in a leftist political group? Holy poo poo do you have to put up with stuff.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:56
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yeah sorry if I was just keeping lists of people online (or even just goons) who has said something dumb and racist I would be too busy to do anything else lmao
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Sep 22, 2017 16:57
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Yeah, if you see racists on the left, name & shame and back it up with examples of what they've said.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:57
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Also "give me specific examples so I can understand because I can't see it myself" to a PoC is a great example of this. It comes off as sea-lioning and if you can't see this yourself, you're part of the problem.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:57
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boner confessor posted:first off anyone who says there's no war but class war So I always thought "no war but class war" meant "I oppose all war except war on the rich". Lol.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:58
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Casey Finnigan posted:There's a certain subset of leftists who take the "Israel is a lovely oppressive state run by psychopaths" (true) view too far and run it into bad territory. An example would be how the organizers ejected a participant in the Dyke March for carrying a Star of David to express their identity as a Jewish lesbian. Then in the LGBT thread in E/N some fyad weirdo was claiming that the ejection was appropriate, because all Jews shoulder the blame for the actions of Israel, and they got some support among some posters there surprisingly. That's pretty much what I see, too. However it appears to be small fringe elements of the left, which you're always going to have a handful of crazies on your team that you summarily ignore. The danger comes when they outnumber you and then just take over.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:58
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Jaxyon posted:Also "give me specific examples so I can understand because I can't see it myself" to a PoC is a great example of this. Exactly.
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Sep 22, 2017 16:59
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Koalas March posted:Just follow my posts and social media. they always pop up with some bullshit. Like come on, you honestly can't believe that there are no leftist racists? Especially following D&D?? I think there are a lot of really bad trolls out there who pretend like they're leftists but in reality are just racist/sexist jerks. That's not meant to be a "no true Scotsman" argument; there are still genuine racists among the left, no question. But I think the actual number is a lot smaller than is immediately obvious.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:00
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If you want an example, check out any leftypol space on any given day.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:01
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Majorian posted:I think there are a lot of really bad trolls out there who pretend like they're leftists but in reality are just racist/sexist jerks. That's not meant to be a "no true Scotsman" argument; there are still genuine racists among the left, no question. But I think the actual number is a lot smaller than is immediately obvious. Also everything on social media is fake until proven real IMO, even things I like. That's not sea lioning, social media is terrible.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:01
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Majorian posted:I would call that narrow-minded, reductive, and symptomatic of a racial blind spot, but saying that people who make the claim are necessarily racist is pretty dumb. Majorian posted:I think there are a lot of really bad trolls out there who pretend like they're leftists but in reality are just racist/sexist jerks. That's not meant to be a "no true Scotsman" argument; there are still genuine racists among the left, no question. But I think the actual number is a lot smaller than is immediately obvious. lol "these people don't exist" is the drum you've always beat.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:01
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What is it with goons and lists? Did you spawn out of a clickhole warp portal?
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Sep 22, 2017 17:02
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RZA Encryption posted:So I always thought "no war but class war" meant "I oppose all war except war on the rich". Lol. That is what it originally meant. There are a few idiots who use it as a slogan to diminish social justice issues in favor of a purely economic justice platform, but those people tend to get shouted down by the rest of us who think that's idiotic. I know a lot of folks here are very proud and vocal of not reading the "Dems are a waste" thread, but we are actually pretty good about that in the rare instances in which those dummies pop up. Submarine Sandpaper posted:lol "these people don't exist" is the drum you've always beat. I love that you claim this after quoting a post in which I literally acknowledged that these people do exist.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:03
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Jaxyon posted:Also "give me specific examples so I can understand because I can't see it myself" to a PoC is a great example of this. The gently caress, Jaxyon? I'm trying to educate myself to be a better ally here. If I've got blindspots and I'm trying to clear them, why you gotta dump on that?
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Sep 22, 2017 17:04
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Reminder that even though Sanders supporters statistically show less racial resentment than any of the other presidential candidates' supporters in 2016, nearly 1 in 4 of them still think that black people are 'more criminal and more violent' than white people. This is not because leftists are bad people and racists, it's because people in general are loving racist and it needs to be addressed when building a genuinely leftist movement. El Pollo Blanco fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 17:04
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Majorian posted:I love that you claim this after quoting a post in which I literally acknowledged that these people do exist. The very definition of a token acknowledgement. Your "?" in the second dem is a waste thread shows that you only care about economic policy.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:05
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Chilichimp posted:The gently caress, Jaxyon? I'm trying to educate myself to be a better ally here. If I've got blindspots and I'm trying to clear them, why you gotta dump on that? Lesson one: When a PoC says they're are racists in a political group, listen to her. If you want to be a better ally, start there.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:06
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Shadin posted:That's pretty much what I see, too. However it appears to be small fringe elements of the left, which you're always going to have a handful of crazies on your team that you summarily ignore. The danger comes when they outnumber you and then just take over. Ignoring them is part of the problem. Silence is seen by racists as consent. Silence is seen by black people as a lack of concern. If you see someone spouting racist bullshit repudiate them.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:06
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El Pollo Blanco posted:Reminder that even though Sanders supporters statistically show less racial resentment than any of the other presidential candidates in 2016, nearly 1 in 4 of them still think that black people are 'more criminal and more violent' than white people. This is well-put, and I don't think any of the leftists here would argue with that. I think where we bridle a bit is when we get singled out for it.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:06
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El Pollo Blanco posted:Reminder that even though Sanders supporters statistically show less racial resentment than any of the other presidential candidates in 2016, nearly 1 in 4 of them still think that black people are 'more criminal and more violent' than white people. It's pervasive, white propaganda that most white people grew up with and fail to adequately question for themselves. I'd have to venture a guess as to the % of total white Americans who think that.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:07
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:The very definition of a token acknowledgement. Your "?" in the second dem is a waste thread shows that you only care about economic policy. That's just completely false. You must have missed my exchanges with people like Call Me Charlie. e: I mean good lord, I made this effort post defending social justice (partially supporting an argument that you yourself made!) in the very thread you're referencing. Majorian fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 17:08
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Chilichimp posted:The gently caress, Jaxyon? I'm trying to educate myself to be a better ally here. If I've got blindspots and I'm trying to clear them, why you gotta dump on that? You can start by paying more attention. There have been people on the left who have spouted racist bullshit here. Almost all were called out, some were probated, and some banned. I couldn't think of a specific name right now that stands out, either. I could pick half a dozen names from my ignore list, and maybe I'd get a hit.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:09
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I've been pretty close to a strong leftist movement in Europe for many years, have been to a ton of stuff with various other left-wing organizations, and I've never met any actual racist in those contexts - outside maybe a few actually insane, bonkers, people. I've met a few who were insistent on the type of 'equality' that demonstrates a lack of understanding of racism, discrimination and marginalization, as well as identity politics, but no actual 'I think people of this race or ethnicity or culture are inferior and should have less opportunities', or 'they deserve what they're getting, their culture is making them lazy' or anything of that nature. More like the type morons who say things like: 'why cant I use the n-word? I don't mean any negative with it!' or stuf like: 'Everyone should be treated equally, no-one should get a leg-up regardless of ethnicity! It should be merit-based!', stuff like that. Lack of understanding of what racism is and how it is institutionalized, but it's because they don't know any better, not because they believe in racial differences. In the end, the problem is of course, that they end up supporting racist policies through their lack of understanding, but even if the mantra of 'what they do is what matters' (that is, intention doesn't matter, effect does) holds up, I still think that these people are just waiting to be explained/convinced by someone more knowledgeable than them who they look up to - in stark contrast to the right wing. Which obviously means they should be treated differently, unless we don't actually care about the effect of our activism.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:10
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Koalas March posted:social media This seems like a terrible idea for reasons that go far beyond the current point of discussion.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:11
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Jaxyon posted:Lesson one: When a PoC says they're are racists in a political group, listen to her. I'm not a fuckin' sea lion, Jax. "That's exactly what a sea lion would say." But I'm super not, I am listening. She already addressed the root of my query: Koalas March posted:Maybe I should clarify that I am talking about average white leftists and not leaders.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:11
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Revelation 2-13 posted:I've been pretty close to a strong leftist movement in Europe for many years, have been to a ton of stuff with various other left-wing organizations, and I've never met any actual racist in those contexts - outside maybe a few actually insane, bonkers, people. Yeah, you must not have any experience actually trying to educate folks like that. Believe me, from experience most people fail to self crit and double down on their bullshit.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:14
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"Guys leftists aren't immune to racism" *page after page of white people upset about this claim and arguing it or demanding examples*  FWIW I saw basically this exact thing in a local leftist group. PoC complained about some racists, white people didn't believe them and demanded examples, dismissed examples and got upset that PoC were "ruining unity" and putting themselves before the movement. A great example to "leftists have a racism problem too" is "yeah and we need to work on it" but that's not where it goes for some reason.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:14
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Koalas March posted:Ignoring them is part of the problem. Silence is seen by racists as consent. Silence is seen by black people as a lack of concern. If you see someone spouting racist bullshit repudiate them. Well obviously if I ever encounter it personally I'd correct them, and I have. I meant ignore them in the sense that we don't pretend that their positions are worth actual discussion or are equally valid viewpoints, which seems to be the American way now.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:14
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Jaxyon posted:Also "give me specific examples so I can understand because I can't see it myself" to a PoC is a great example of this. We're all part of the problem though? I mean this is gonna sound trite and white as hell but we're all flawed and everyone is gonna say something stupid and offensive sometimes. Coming down hard on people who are.acring I good faith but meaning well seems counterproductive. As I understand "sea lioning" it is a matter of repeated stupidity, not first time fumbles.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:15
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Koalas March posted:Ignoring them is part of the problem. Silence is seen by racists as consent. Silence is seen by black people as a lack of concern. If you see someone spouting racist bullshit repudiate them. This. lovely views and people thrive in unopposed spaces. America's overt and deafening silence about racism over the last few decades has pretty much given the racists a carte-blanche to enter the regular discourse again.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:16
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Revelation 2-13 posted:More like the type morons who say things like: 'why cant I use the n-word? I don't mean any negative with it!' or stuf like: 'Everyone should be treated equally, no-one should get a leg-up regardless of ethnicity! It should be merit-based!', stuff like that. Lack of understanding of what racism is and how it is institutionalized, but it's because they don't know any better, not because they believe in racial differences. In the end, the problem is of course, that they end up supporting racist policies through their lack of understanding, but even if the mantra of 'what they do is what matters' (that is, intention doesn't matter, effect does) holds up, I still think that these people are just waiting to be explained/convinced by someone more knowledgeable than them who they look up to - in stark contrast to the right wing. Which obviously means they should be treated differently, unless we don't actually care about the effect of our activism. This is all different forms of racism though. The problem is that people see racism as "I think [x group] is inferior" and nothing outside of that. There is also the issue that people don't want to take responsibility for racist policies that they support. If you support something that is oppressing me you are an oppressor. Full stop. Chilichimp posted:I'm not a fuckin' sea lion, Jax. Don't worry, you are cool and good. Everybody makes mistakes or says something lovely on accident, calm down folks. It's all good in the hood. 
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Sep 22, 2017 17:16
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RZA Encryption posted:So I always thought "no war but class war" meant "I oppose all war except war on the rich". Lol. It used to back in like the sixties? But these days it seems to be construed as equivalent to "all lives matter", because, like, the police are.shooting black protestors with chemical weapons, so .. .yeah that's a war
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Sep 22, 2017 17:17
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Jaxyon posted:"Guys leftists aren't immune to racism" I think the reason why we're sore about this is because of how often it was used as a cudgel against the Sanders movement in 2016, when Clinton supporters are also not immune from racism in any way, shape, or form. It's a little disingenuous to single out the Bernie fans.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:19
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:It used to back in like the sixties? But these days it seems to be construed as equivalent to "all lives matter", because, like, the police are.shooting black protestors with chemical weapons, so .. .yeah that's a war highlighting that the only struggle that matters is the class struggle is an argument borne from white guys who only talked to other white guys in majority white nations during a period of white global dominance so it's a bit of a skewed perspective to put it mildly
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Sep 22, 2017 17:23
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boner confessor posted:highlighting that the only struggle that matters is the class struggle is an argument borne from white guys who only talked to other white guys in majority white nations during a period of white global dominance so it's a bit of a skewed perspective to put it mildly It's a really dumb, harmful perspective, but a lot of us really do our best to call it out when we see it.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:24
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