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Jaxyon posted:Also "give me specific examples so I can understand because I can't see it myself" to a PoC is a great example of this. I feel like many of the people from our last few pages who have, in part, dismissed such criticism as being an empty political attack from 'centrists/liberals' are very much in the same vein too.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:26
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tentative8e8op posted:I feel like many of the people from our last few pages who have, in part, dismissed such criticism as being an empty political attack from 'centrists/liberals' are very much in the same vein too. the current state of d&d is like a shirts v skins football game, except instead of shirts or skins it's easily obtained and discarded labels like liberal/leftist, and instead of football it's throwing mugs of hot piss at each other
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Sep 22, 2017 17:28
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tentative8e8op posted:I feel like many of the people from our last few pages who have, in part, dismissed such criticism as being an empty political attack from 'centrists/liberals' are very much in the same vein too. I think they were referring to centrist leaders like Hillary Clinton, who genuinely were using it as an empty political attack. e: The most obvious example being the infamous, "If we broke up the big banks tomorrow...would that end racism? Would that end sexism?" Majorian fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 17:28
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Majorian posted:I think the reason why we're sore about this is because of how often it was used as a cudgel against the Sanders movement in 2016, when Clinton supporters are also not immune from racism in any way, shape, or form. It's a little disingenuous to single out the Bernie fans. I'm a Sanders supporter and I was 100% with him until I had to vote Hillary in the general, it's not at all a cudgel if you admit it's a problem. The response of "but Hillary" isn't a good one.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:30
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boner confessor posted:highlighting that the only struggle that matters is the class struggle is an argument borne from white guys who only talked to other white guys in majority white nations during a period of white global dominance so it's a bit of a skewed perspective to put it mildly Right, but I suspect that's a relatively recent shift in perspective. Fifty years ago nwbcw was a militant socialist slogan and an anti-vietnam-war slogan primarily. I would be very surprised if "no war but class war" was never chanted by the original Black Panther Party, for example. There has always been a lot of overlap between black civil rights movements and Socialist movements because there is a lot of overlap in goals. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 17:32
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So I'm gonna reroute from the Trump thread and post this here: There was ANOTHER incident of Turkish security for Erdogan assaulting US citizens on US soil yesterday. What the gently caress? Like, literally more direct harm being done to Americans than by North Korea or Russia or whatever but it's just sailing on under the radar. I thought it was back in the news because they are going forward on the trial for the first brawl in DC? WTF
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Sep 22, 2017 17:33
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Jaxyon posted:I'm a Sanders supporter and I was 100% with him until I had to vote Hillary in the general, it's not at all a cudgel if you admit it's a problem. Sure it is, if your'e using it to deflect legitimate criticisms directed at you. That's whatabout-ism. That's the old Soviet tactic of saying, "And you lynch black people!" in response to legit criticisms of their own human rights record. Remember, a lot of us just spent months watching people like JeffersonClay do exactly that, in the most cynical, bad faith manner imaginable.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:35
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I think it's even possible to be progressive on racial issues and still be racist. I for one support all forms of affirmative action because minorities, being inferior, need the help, and I am so strong and good for thinking so.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:35
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Right, but I suspect that's a relatively recent shift in perspective. Fifty years ago nwbcw was a militant socialist slogan and an anti-vietnam-war slogan primarily. I would be very surprised if "no war but class war" was never chanted by the original Black Panther Party, for example. fifty years ago we whites weren't even close to uncapping racism and actually talking about it on a societal level beyond empty platitudes like "racism is bad". i have no idea if the black panthers ever advocated this but it feels tokenish Hieronymous Alloy posted:There has always been a lot of overlap between black civil rights movements and Socialist movements because there is a lot of overlap in goals. is there a lot of overlap in the support they receive from supposed white allies?
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Sep 22, 2017 17:35
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RuanGacho posted:
Acta Non Verba, motto of the best federal military academy, btw. (I may be biased)
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Sep 22, 2017 17:36
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Jaxyon posted:The response of "but Hillary" isn't a good one. edit: To clarify, I think the latter is kind of an empty statement without calling out specific groups or people. We'd all like there to be less racists, and we'd all like the existing racists to be shouted down more. twodot fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 17:37
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^^^^ so far in this conversation, I've seen it be leftists attempting to convince other leftists it's an actual problem. Which we shouldn't have to.Majorian posted:Sure it is, if your'e using it to deflect legitimate criticisms directed at you. That's whatabout-ism. That's the old Soviet tactic of saying, "And you lynch black people!" in response to legit criticisms of their own human rights record. Remember, a lot of us just spent months watching people like JeffersonClay do exactly that, in the most cynical, bad faith manner imaginable. I wasn't here for that. I'm talking about my real world interactions.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:37
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Jaxyon posted:^^^^ so far in this conversation, I've seen it be leftists attempting to convince other leftists it's an actual problem. Which we shouldn't have to.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:41
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Jaxyon posted:"Guys leftists aren't immune to racism" Yep. I think it's a credit to KM and TB and others pointing out casual goon racism for continuing to post against the tirade of poo poo they endure. I've learned some good stuff from their posts about my own subconscious biases and prejudices. Most important thing I've probably picked up is if a PoC is saying something is hosed up/racist/derogatory you should probably listen to them.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:41
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Koalas March posted:This is all different forms of racism though. The problem is that people see racism as "I think [x group] is inferior" and nothing outside of that. There is also the issue that people don't want to take responsibility for racist policies that they support. If you support something that is oppressing me you are an oppressor. Full stop. I'd like to believe that racism on the left is more based on ignorance and defensiveness than malice. Addressing it though, to understate terribly, is really loving hard. It's hard because a big part of that will be having people understand and accept their own internalized bigotry from being born and raised in the toxic soup of our culture. Like, I know there is a part of my brain that has a split second reaction when I see a black dude in a hoodie or feels weird about trans people because of how I was raised and I need to be conscious of it and acknowledge that it's there and also both dumb and bad so it impacts my thoughts and beliefs as little as possible. I mean I know at some point I'm going to say something or do something that is bad or hurtful despite my best intentions and will need to be called out on it in a way that's constructive and react in away that's compassionate and not defensive. It means people leaving themselves open, honest, and examine themselves in a way that people have trouble doing with their significant other so the idea of doing the same in a larger group can be completely, utterly terrifying. Iron Twinkie fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 17:43
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boner confessor posted:highlighting that the only struggle that matters is the class struggle is an argument borne from white guys who only talked to other white guys in majority white nations during a period of white global dominance so it's a bit of a skewed perspective to put it mildly I've googled for this a bit recently but I've never been able to find any evidence of this being used as anything other than an anti-war protest and some conservative blog whining about Hillary Clinton wanting to seize the means of production or something. Is there some kind of Twitter culture around using this with "war" being symbolic for other struggles? I know it's a slogan that gets dunked on a lot in D&D for being exclusionary but I'm curious if it has ever been used that way.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:43
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Jaxyon posted:^^^^ so far in this conversation, I've seen it be leftists attempting to convince other leftists it's an actual problem. Which we shouldn't have to. I don't think anyone here is denying that it's an actual problem; again, what we're taking issue with is the implication that it's more of a problem among Bernie supporters than Clinton supporters. quote:I wasn't here for that. I'm talking about my real world interactions. Well, I don't have any control over your real world interactions. The best I can do is keep calling out racism among leftists in my own life, and here on D&D, to the best of my ability. Joe-Bob posted:I've googled for this a bit recently but I've never been able to find any evidence of this being used as anything other than an anti-war protest and some conservative blog whining about Hillary Clinton wanting to seize the means of production or something. Is there some kind of Twitter culture around using this with "war" being symbolic for other struggles? I know it's a slogan that gets dunked on a lot in D&D for being exclusionary but I'm curious if it has ever been used that way. Super lovely trolls like The Saurus used it occasionally in YCS/CSPAM, but I don't think anyone ever truly believed they were leftists.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:44
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There's definitely a reflex to throw it the gently caress out there when a leader is being kind of lovely and blatantly using social issues as an anti-economic cudgel, and I'll admit that it should be stamped out because it 100% isn't doing anyone any favors even if it's fun to say.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:48
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Koalas March posted:What segment of the population are they trying to shut down, and who are to shut them down in the first place? I feel like you're being really vague on purpose, in order to obscure your real opinion. I'm not steinrokkan but let me get specific for you. Your post here feels like you're dog whistling that steinrokkan is a racist to discredit their position. Not saying you are, I'm sharing my perspective so you can better understand my where I'm coming from. Did you follow where race entered into the discussion? Let me show you where I see it entering. It started in a conversation where boner confessor is trying to tear down lefty solutions to housing. They say that there is no magic pot of money, a poster replies there's plenty of money and gives the extra mil funding as an example, then boner confessor says that given recent history there is no will to spend money on houses, and finally a poster says that the New Deal didn't happen is a period of magical lefty wonderland - it came out of a period with an even worse economic record. So "there is no money" "there is plenty of money" "there is no will to spend it this way, eg. recent trends" "recent trends are irrelevant, eg. the last the time we moved hard left". The entire argument is about viability. Economic viability and/or political viability. The next reply from boner confessor, if they still hold the same position could be something about how this time is different, or whatever. But instead BAM: boner confessor posted:you realllllllllly dont want to bring up the new deal in the context of housing policy because it was racist as poo poo Racism! The New Deal was racism. Previously the problem was that addressing housing via the left is not possible (TM). Now it's all about the racism now. No poster has made any racist comments I can see. Nobody has implied that they should go all racist to get a new new deal. Nope, boner confessor got stuck into the corner and pulled out an accusation of racism instead of attacking the point. So now the lefties are put on the defensive. So Probably Magic and WampaLord just clarify their point (and WampaLord gets a bit whiny, presumably from the many times I've seen them go through this ritual on this forum): Probably Magic posted:You're really missing my point, which is that progressive policies don't need to wait for years of Dem rule before being proposed. WampaLord posted:No one bringing up the New Deal is saying "We want to do it exactly the same, racism and all" and it's really annoying to see this criticism constantly slogged at anyone who dares mentions that we once pushed hard left economically and it loving worked. Then boner confessor offers this seemingly reasonable post: boner confessor posted:think about why these progressive policies haven't been implemented yet, or why the last time an attempt to implement them was made they had to specifically exclude minorities Someone could reply with the point that they haven't been implemented for decades because progressive policies have been deliberately sidelined in general for decades, and that the last time it was racist because it was the 19-loving-30s because of said decades since progressive policies had equal time. But nobody gets to the reply before this comes out: boner confessor posted:hm sorry but racism is over now, so large scale technocratic plans couldn't possible have racially based negative side effects A very serious post from a very serious person very seriously engaging in good faith with their opponents. And this: boner confessor posted:sorry but that guy is super mad at me so his anger at me disagreeing with him is going to override any actual policy he refuses to understand Phi230 picks up what boner confessor is putting down and throws it in their face: Phi230 posted:you keep bringing up leftist terms in like a vindictive way without anyone actually saying anything about it so i think you have deeper issues here Submarine Sandpaper joins boner confessor on bashing the other side over poo poo nobody said: Submarine Sandpaper posted:It's cool and good to pretend that the nation didn't just elect a white nationalist so we can ignore racism in the status quo. Nobody said to ignore racism. Nobody said Bernie would have won. There is nothing here that does anything to address arguments or points or position; it's just throwing poo poo. There's some back and forth by a couple posters but at this point the conversation has become accusations of racism directed at the left and the left defending against the charge. There is no more discussion about viability of lefty policies. It's not even about housing any more. It's not even about trying to make sure new solutions don't fall for the same problems of racism that befell them before. Because it's not about concerns over racism; it's an attack. Talking about solutions to concerns of racism is pointless because it's not about that. It's entirely replaced by putting the left on the defensive so at best they might be able to convince people they are not the pernicious racists they're been cold-accused of being. Racism wasn't brought up by the left. It wasn't a matter of "hey can we shut up about race poo poo there's economics to do", there was no trigger for the accusation. I've seen it before where people will try to sideline issues of race to focus on economics but that did not happen here. And then some pages later someone is being accused of defending racism even though there is no underlying racism they're defending; they're not defending a racist, they're not defending a racist act, or a racist group, or a racist policy. They're defending against a completely unprompted, bad faith charge of racism. And now they're being charged of being a racist for defending people who are defending themselves from a totally out of the blue pivot to 'leftists are racist'. Then people are seemingly being dog whistled as racist because they're annoyed that the tactic has been used yet again to derail leftist policy discussion. And nobody is talking about housing anymore. Good work boner confessor: you "won". That is the problem leftists are talking about. Futuresight fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 17:50
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lmao accusing a black person of using dogwhistling when they are calling out dog whistling is the most D&D thing ever I wish i had a trophy, I'd give it to you  weird how when the "accusations of racism" and poo poo happen you don't post quotes of that in context
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Sep 22, 2017 17:53
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Your reply makes me believe you valued the time I took to share my perspective and that you asked for specifics in good faith.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:55
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Jesus Christ people, racism doesn't need to be overt for it to exist.
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Sep 22, 2017 17:57
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Trivia posted:Jesus Christ people, racism doesn't need to be overt for it to exist. Who here said otherwise? Futuresight posted:Your reply makes me believe you valued the time I took to share my perspective and that you asked for specifics in good faith. You had a good point about boner confessor shouting "RACISM!" to distract from the argument, but calling what KM was doing a "dogwhistle" probably wasn't, uh, appropriate. That's a pretty loaded term. Majorian fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 17:57
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I know this is D&D but my god I am utterly floored that someone just turned "dogwhistle" around like that
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Sep 22, 2017 17:58
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Futuresight posted:
lmao you wrote a big dumb book and got your argument wrong the new deal was racist, full stop. this is not an accusation of racism on the part of other posters, this is an observation of fact. new deal mortgage policies codified the practice of only lending to white people, look up the Home Ownership Loan Corporation. this is hardly the only aspect of the new deal that was racist but specifically when it comes to housing policy in the us... yeah it's kind of amazing you wasted all that time writing a huge effort post that was critically flawed lmbo Futuresight posted:And nobody is talking about housing anymore. Good work boner confessor: you "won". im sorry you disagree with me but try to be less of a whiny baby about it, please also climb down off my dick thank you
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Sep 22, 2017 18:01
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The racist-racist-dogwhistle isn't a great start to his post, but the rest of it is very clear on how 'the left are the real racist' thing came up.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:01
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Futuresight posted:Your post here feels like you're dog whistling that steinrokkan is a racist to discredit their position. Not saying you are, I'm sharing my perspective so you can better understand my where I'm coming from. You are an Olympic caliber shitlord.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:02
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boner confessor posted:lmao you wrote a big dumb book and got your argument wrong True, but you did bring up the racist aspects of the New Deal to distract from the housing argument that you were embroiled in. That was a pretty clear case of someone using it as a cudgel.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:02
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Futuresight posted:Your reply makes me believe you valued the time I took to share my perspective and that you asked for specifics in good faith. this is why: BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:I know this is D&D but my god I am utterly floored that someone just turned "dogwhistle" around like that Maybe it was a mistake, a poorly chosen turn of phrase that you used multiple times, I don't know. What i do know is that while I take my time to engage posters in good faith, and sometimes enjoy it, it is draining. Talking about the oppression, subjugation and racism against my people every loving day is exhausting. i have no time for people who accuse me of using a racist tactic against white people.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:03
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Revelation 2-13 posted:The racist-racist-dogwhistle isn't a great start to his post, but the rest of it is very clear on how 'the left are the real racist' thing came up. Nobody has argued that leftists are the real racist though. Just that there is a problem of unexamined racism on the left. I am a loving MLM for Christ's sake, I /am/ a leftist.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:04
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Majorian posted:True, but you did bring up the racist aspects of the New Deal to distract from the housing argument that you were embroiled in. That was a pretty clear case of someone using it as a cudgel. how is it a cudgel to point out that something is racist? i didn't say the poster was racist or that their argument was racist, i pointed out "hey, this historical example you're using is riddled with racism, be aware of that" this is extremely sensitive and kind of hilarious given the whiplash here between "we need to call out examples of racism" and also "please don't mention racism in history it is an unfair attack against people's arguments"
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Sep 22, 2017 18:05
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Also, you might be accused of dogwhistling, as an example from futuresight.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:06
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If using dogwhistle in that way is harmful then I didn't know and I'm sorry for that. I used it purely to mean "saying something people who are on your side will understand without explicitly saying it" and I don't know of any other word for it.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:07
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Majorian posted:Who here said otherwise? Nobody said *overtly* otherwise. Leftist/liberal racism is never going to be overt. It's in the form of telling people to stop talking about stuff, or asking for examples until you believe, or saying it's all a ploy to distract from X.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:08
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Futuresight posted:If using dogwhistle in that way is harmful then I didn't know and I'm sorry for that. I used it purely to mean "saying something people who are on your side will understand without explicitly saying it" and I don't know of any other word for it. It is also meant to specifically refer to coded racism.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:08
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LunarShadow posted:It is also meant to specifically refer to code racism. Yeah "shibboleth" might be a better term if you're arguing in good faith.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:09
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LunarShadow posted:Nobody has argued that leftists are the real racist though. Just that there is a problem of unexamined racism on the left. I am a loving MLM for Christ's sake, I /am/ a leftist. Conversations shift and change.. who knew!! When I popped in I was not trying to imply all leftists or Bernie supporters are racist. I am a black leftist Bernie supporter. That said, i have seen and experienced racism from both groups and I believe that was worth addressing. I thought we were having a pretty decent conversation, actually. Part of the problem is that people get really defensive when I try to explain and address the black community's support for Hillary Clinton. While we are not a monolith we broke for her and she had many genuine black supporters. She has had inroads in our community for decades and decades. Ok Bernie has the right policies now, but he is not getting them out there and engaging our community in an effective way. It's a messaging problem. When I point this out people take this as a personal attack on Bernie or idk wtf else but holy poo poo do they get defensive.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:09
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Futuresight posted:If using dogwhistle in that way is harmful then I didn't know and I'm sorry for that. I used it purely to mean "saying something people who are on your side will understand without explicitly saying it" and I don't know of any other word for it. you understand what dogwhistling is, maybe what you don't understand is that me saying "the so called progressive housing policies you're talking about specifically and deliberately excluded african americans from receiving loans, the program was deliberately structured and designed this way, and that was racist" is not an accusation of another specific poster being racist. it is a statement that the policy was racist
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Sep 22, 2017 18:09
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LunarShadow posted:Nobody has argued that leftists are the real racist though. Just that there is a problem of unexamined racism on the left. I am a loving MLM for Christ's sake, I /am/ a leftist. Our big objection is that it's not completely unexamined, nor is it uniformly unexamined among Bernie supporters, nor is it fair to suggest that it's more unexamined among Bernie supporters than among other left-of-center voters or activists. (contrary to what is often implied) As others have pointed out, groups like DSA are making concerted efforts to examine racism and expunge it from their ranks.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:10
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Why does anyone think that being the Mike Tirico of D&D shouting matches will end in anything but ridicule?
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Sep 22, 2017 18:11
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