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https://twitter.com/samstein/status/911286349017288705 Like I loving trust McCain, but maybe...?
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Sep 22, 2017 18:51
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https://twitter.com/lachlan/status/911286426360311808
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Sep 22, 2017 18:52
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Office Pig posted:https://twitter.com/samstein/status/911286349017288705 That does seem to be him planting his flag fairly unambiguously. Particularly given how much Graham is his bff 4eva.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:52
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Majorian posted:That does seem to be him planting his flag fairly unambiguously. Particularly given how much Graham is his bff 4eva. https://twitter.com/MatthewDurst/status/911286428214145026 MAVERICK
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Sep 22, 2017 18:52
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Koalas March posted:I feel weird and uncomfortable when people act like the left has a problem with addressing racism too fiercely. Especially in a conversation where PoC are saying racism is not addressed enough. That's a false assumption. I think that is rooted in white fragility. You (the general 'you') perceive a small amount of racial stress and lash out and get defensive when it's not necessary. The only part of this post I'd disagree with is the idea that it's a deliberate silencing tactic. It certainly can be a tactic, but often what seems to happen here is Step one: ignorant white dude (IGD) says something well-intentioned but that can be legitimately seen as tone deaf on racial issues ("let's bring back New Deal style housing programs!") Step two: more aware PoC calls out the tone deafness: ("WTF, new deal style housing programs were hella racist") Step three: IGD thinks he's being attacked out of left field (because he's tone deaf and didn't realize what the implication of his first post was and still doesn't) and gets defensive Importantly, as that situation escalates, to third party observers (who are also probably tone deaf), it can look like the PoC is the person escalating and causing the drama, because the IGD is being superficially calm. This sort of mechanic is part of why "angry black man" is a stereotype (and probably part of why "hysterical" is a gendered insult aimed at women, too). Oppressed people are more sensitive (they have to be) and as a result pick up on poo poo the dominant class is simply unaware of, so even to well-intentioned third parties, their anger sometimes seems inexplicable or random. So yeah, upshot, it's really important to actually listen to people of color and women and other oppressed groups when they're speaking about their experience, because they understand their own experience better than you do if you aren't them. The flip side of that though is that us white people often really are clueless and ignorant to a degree that I think can seem bizarre to people of color. How can white people possibly be that ignorant? They had to have meant that poo poo! They knew what they were saying! No we didn't, we're honestly that deaf to ourselves. (A secondary debate then, of course, is whether or not the intent of a given dominant-class person matters, if their speech or their actions have harmful results.) Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 18:54
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I think the big sticking point among leftists isn't the idea that racism exists on the left, because it sure as hell does exist and thus should and must be addressed, but that the liberal establishment and commentariat have a laser focus on the racism that does exist on the left while quietly sweeping the racism that does exist in the centre under the rug, and then using this purported moral superiority as a silencing and erasing tactic against the left.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:54
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I'm so loving on edge from this health care poo poo that at first I thought this was him saying he was voting for it after all christ
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Sep 22, 2017 18:54
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Koalas March posted:Here's a good tip: If a PoC is telling you something is fishy or racist, you should at the very least lend them your ear and hear them out. I understand this, it's why I didn't address the posts of accusations of racism further down. Like kekekela, I have an opinion on the name but I didn't think it was worth sharing that opinion. I meant to address this after your first reply, but that is why I, as you said, did not quote the later accusations of racism in context. I wasn't trying to override you and tell you what is and is not racism. I was pointing out how the derail started, why I thought it started, and what it did, not whether people eventually deserved being called out for things they said during the derail.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:55
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Importantly, as that situation escalates, to third party observers (who are also probably tone deaf), it can look like the PoC is the person escalating and causing the drama, because the IGD is being superficially calm. While that's often true, I think one special ingredient in this whole discussion is that the person who brought up the racist aspect New Deal housing is noted troll boner confessor/Popular Thug Drink. I agree 100% with everything else you and KM say though. I'm going to keep working on actually listening to PoCs, particularly when they call out examples of racism.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:56
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quote:Sep 22 2017
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Sep 22, 2017 18:59
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I'ma reiterate what was said in Trumpthread and remind everyone that it's not October yet and we should not treat this as a dead issue until then.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:59
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Office Pig posted:I'ma reiterate what was said in Trumpthread and remind everyone that it's not October yet and we should not treat this as a dead issue until then. No, but still, this is a very good sign. \/\/\/you shouldn't say good things about McCain even after that, dude's a piece of poo poo\/\/\/ Majorian fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 19:00
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I'm not going to say good things about McCain until this is actually is a real no vote on the floor.
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Sep 22, 2017 19:02
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Crabtree posted:I'm not going to say good things about McCain until this is actually is a real no vote on the floor. This statement makes it pretty likely that there's not gonna be a vote on the floor. McConnell isn't gonna put the thing up so it can fail even more predictably than last time
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Sep 22, 2017 19:04
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Cerebral Bore posted:that the liberal establishment and commentariat have a laser focus on the racism that does exist on the left while quietly sweeping the racism that does exist in the centre under the rug, and then using this purported moral superiority as a silencing and erasing tactic against the left. Oh word, where does that happen?
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Sep 22, 2017 19:06
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sit on my Facebook posted:This statement makes it pretty likely that there's not gonna be a vote on the floor. McConnell isn't gonna put the thing up so it can fail even more predictably than last time When has that stopped them from acting just so they can have the excuse that they did something? They're hosed either way if they fail, but they'll be more RINO than anything else if no one gets to show that they voted yes for repeal.
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Sep 22, 2017 19:07
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Majorian posted:No, but still, this is a very good sign. Yeah this is good news but technically Collins seems to be saying "leaning no" and Murkowski is still waffling. So, good news for now, but. . ugh. I mean hell we're going to be right back in t his mess next year.
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Sep 22, 2017 19:07
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sit on my Facebook posted:This statement makes it pretty likely that there's not gonna be a vote on the floor. McConnell isn't gonna put the thing up so it can fail even more predictably than last time Such a strategic genius, that McConnell...  Seriously, my favorite part of this whole debacle is how much it proves that that dumb turtle doesn't know what the gently caress he's doing. Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah this is good news but technically Collins seems to be saying "leaning no" and Murkowski is still waffling. So, good news for now, but. . ugh. I was under the impression that Collins was much more firm of a "no." Obviously that can change, though (or I could have just misheard).
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Sep 22, 2017 19:08
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Nevvy Z posted:Oh word, where does that happen? In approximately one bazillion thinkpieces shat out in the past year and a half. Also every time you post.
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Sep 22, 2017 19:08
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I mean hell we're going to be right back in t his mess next year. If this fails? No, we won't. And if they are then you really know something is up with the Republican party because they're not doing this for health care. Majorian posted:I was under the impression that Collins was much more firm of a "no." Obviously that can change, though (or I could have just misheard). A no vote on this would be much more costly for her at this juncture, I think. Yeah, there was a 'leaning no' sort of statement included in a release earlier but that was followed up with a much more confident stance of opposition. ded redd fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 19:09
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Cerebral Bore posted:In approximately one bazillion thinkpieces shat out in the past year and a half. Also every time you post. Quote me? loving liar. People can't just be concerned about racism if they are on your side, they must be trying to subvert you!
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Sep 22, 2017 19:10
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Iron Twinkie posted:I'd like to believe that racism on the left is more based on ignorance and defensiveness than malice. Addressing it though, to understate terribly, is really loving hard. It's hard because a big part of that will be having people understand and accept their own internalized bigotry from being born and raised in the toxic soup of our culture. Like, I know there is a part of my brain that has a split second reaction when I see a black dude in a hoodie or feels weird about trans people because of how I was raised and I need to be conscious of it and acknowledge that it's there and also both dumb and bad so it impacts my thoughts and beliefs as little as possible. I mean I know at some point I'm going to say something or do something that is bad or hurtful despite my best intentions and will need to be called out on it in a way that's constructive and react in away that's compassionate and not defensive. It means people leaving themselves open, honest, and examine themselves in a way that people have trouble doing with their significant other so the idea of doing the same in a larger group can be completely, utterly terrifying. The reason addressing it is hard is because people refuse to accept it. The problem is that when someone unconsciously does something racist and it's pointed out to them, they react super defensively. Instead of just saying "whoa, I didn't even notice. sorry, it wasn't intentional, I'll try to be conscious of it in the future", they deny that they've ever acted with the slightest bit of insensitivity, and often they go on to declare that the person pointing it out is just making it up as an excuse to attack them. That's why it's white fragility - instead of acknowledging that maybe they did say something that could make a PoC uncomfortable, they take it as a personal attack and lash out against the very idea that anyone could possibly think they said anything racist! Why can't people just own up to it, rather than insisting it's all part of the black/liberal/whatever conspiracy to take down whites/leftists/whatever? It's not a bad thing to condemn and apologize for racism. It's not an attack. Sure, the media might play it like that, but the media's gonna do what the media's gonna do. I don't think any amount of media malpractice is going to fool people of color who've heard the "how dare anyone accuse me of racism" song and dance a million loving times and would probably to hear a different tune for once. Casey Finnigan posted:Yeah five pages ago a dude was asking why the Democratic left couldn't just get it together to apologize for its racial missteps, while he wasn't asking that other groups that have had similar racial problems do the same. While I was saying that if you want one group to apologize and acknowledge racial issues they all should, and that calling on only the Sanders leftists to apologize for their racism and no one else plays into the narrative of leftists being white, privileged, Bernie Bros. Every group has "similar racial problems". The only question is whether they insist on being in denial about it, or acknowledge their failings and make an honest effort to improve. Besides, your basic thesis that leftists are the only people being asked to apologize for "racial missteps" (  ) is flat-out wrong. The Trump campaign was notoriously asked a great many times about their white supremacist followers, for instance, and the left has been attacking the center-left on a number of racist moves by Dem leadership that have come to light recently. Instead of whining about it, take the higher ground. Acknowledge and condemn racist behavior among individual leftists, make clear that such behavior is absolutely unacceptable...and then challenge Dem leadership to do the same thing about Hillary "prison slaves" Clinton and Nancy "DREAMer protesters are a Russian psyop" Pelosi.
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Sep 22, 2017 19:10
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah this is good news but technically Collins seems to be saying "leaning no" and Murkowski is still waffling. So, good news for now, but. . ugh. I'm counting Collins as a hard no. Murkowski has been too vague to be sure, but Collins has been pretty specific on the policy details, especially today explaining why she think the bill is so terrible. I think she would prefer to not have to take a position, maybe hoping the parliamentarian kills it for her, but she'll vote no if she has to because she wants to be the next governor of Maine, and there's no way in hell that happens if she votes yes.
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Sep 22, 2017 19:10
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Cerebral Bore posted:I think the big sticking point among leftists isn't the idea that racism exists on the left, because it sure as hell does exist and thus should and must be addressed, but that the liberal establishment and commentariat have a laser focus on the racism that does exist on the left while quietly sweeping the racism that does exist in the centre under the rug, and then using this purported moral superiority as a silencing and erasing tactic against the left. This would fit better if the criticism from within wasn't brushed aside with whataboutism about liberal racism.
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Sep 22, 2017 19:11
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Nevvy Z posted:Oh word, where does that happen? Again, Symone Sanders has a really good op-ed on this. LunarShadow posted:This would fit better if the criticism from within wasn't brushed aside with whataboutism about liberal racism. Who here is brushing it aside? Given the examples from the Symone Sanders piece that I linked before and just relinked in this very post, it seems to me that a lot of leftists are trying to tackle it head-on.
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Sep 22, 2017 19:11
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Main Paineframe posted:"DREAMer protesters are a Russian psyop" Pelosi. This is still one of the more batshit things that have happened this year, in case anyone had any illusions that we aren't fundamentally broken as a society in ways no one is really ready to admit.
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Sep 22, 2017 19:14
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Majorian posted:Again, Symone Sanders has a really good op-ed on this. The people saying "what about the racist liberals". Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 19:15
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Nevvy Z posted:The people saying "what about the racist liberals". I don't brush it aside; I full-on acknowledge it and cite examples of leftist leaders and groups trying to deal with it. You don't seem to be able to acknowledge examples of centrist leaders being racist.
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Sep 22, 2017 19:18
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Nevvy Z posted:The people saying "what about the racist liberals". If you actually made a good-faith effort to even acknowledge let alone adress the racism in the liberal establishment we wouldn't have to, you know?
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Sep 22, 2017 19:18
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Tell me, Mister McCain, why exactly your party opposed the Affordable Care Act after elements that your party requested were included in. How specifically was that opposition not based purely upon Party of No opposition but rather was based upon certain aspects of the law that I'm sure you can lay out your objections to.
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Sep 22, 2017 19:18
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https://twitter.com/TopherSpiro/status/911287273655881731 "MCCAIN HAS FLIPPED" - Topher Spiro, smarty-pants.
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Sep 22, 2017 19:20
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Cerebral Bore posted:If you actually made a good-faith effort to even acknowledge let alone adress the racism in the liberal establishment we wouldn't have to, you know? Who are "you libs"? How am I one of them? How have I failed to address the racism of the liberal establishment? gently caress off shithead.
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Sep 22, 2017 19:20
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steinrokkan posted:Absolutely nothing, except when people disingenuously demand others to apologize for actions of unrelated actors as a way of remove their credibility - again and again and again, no matter how many times the accused party had already made amends. Posters who insist on the collective guilt of all leftists are just trying to shut down a segment of the population by making any discussion they are part of about their supposed atonement, not about issues. This is exactly what I'm talking about, because this is almost word-for-word what you might hear from a white "moderate" bitching about affirmative action. Just change "leftists" to "Americans", "Democrats", "Republicans", "white people", or whatever you want. This exact wording could come from a white college student whining that he shouldn't have to give up his privilege because other white people owned slaves once. "I didn't do the racist thing, why should I have to apologize or pay reparations for the actions of others who did" is a common refrain among center-right racists. So is "white people already apologized for slavery, why do we have to keep apologizing over and over again, isn't it all just water among the bridge?" And of course let's not forget "people who insist on the collective guilt of all white people are just trying to shut down us hard-working successful conservatives". And the thing is, I know steinrokkan doesn't mean any of that and isn't thinking any of that. He's just thoughtlessly lashing out, because he sees accusations of racism and his first instinct is to get defensive and respond to it like it's an attack. But it's still virtually indistinguishable from a conservative thinkpiece about ending affirmative action. The minute an accusation of racism drives you to defensiveness and anger rather than to introspection and peaceful dialogue, you're done. That's all it takes.
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Sep 22, 2017 19:22
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Nevvy Z posted:The people saying "what about the racist liberals". Whats wrong with that? What about them? they should be denounced and repudiated when they come forward with their bullshit. As an aside, they also need to be called out for their support of their support of racist policies.
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Sep 22, 2017 19:22
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Nevvy Z posted:Who are "you libs"? How am I one of them? How have I failed to address the racism of the liberal establishment? You seem to reflexively brush away real, concrete examples of liberal leaders like Clinton running very deliberately racist campaigns - and then accuse leftists of doing the same thing with their leaders. (in spite of examples of some of them doing the complete opposite)
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Sep 22, 2017 19:23
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Cerebral Bore posted:If you actually made a good-faith effort to even acknowledge let alone adress the racism in the liberal establishment we wouldn't have to, you know? I mean, my solution is just wall the lot of them come the revolution. Joking aside, I ain't a liberal or a centrist. Default assumption ( at least for white folk)is they are racist until proven otherwise, and do call em out on their poo poo.
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Sep 22, 2017 19:24
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Nevvy Z posted:Who are "you libs"? How am I one of them? How have I failed to address the racism of the liberal establishment? People who subscribe to the well-known political ideology of liberalism. Because of your opinions. By not acknowledging that it even exists. EDIT: LunarShadow posted:I mean, my solution is just wall the lot if them come the revolution. Joking aside, I ain't a liberal or a centrist. Default assumption ( at least for white folk)is they are racist until proven otherwise, That's a wall I can support. I wasn't addressing said post to you though, just to Nevvy. Cerebral Bore fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Sep 22, 2017 |
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Sep 22, 2017 19:25
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"you're a liberal" cries the self identified internet leftist, throwing a jar of hot piss on his opponent "no, it is you who is the real liberal" cries the piss-soaked self identified internet leftist, returning the volley of piping hot urine "why can't you decry the failure of liberal politics as much as you accuse us leftists of being racist?" "why should i? i'm more leftist than you, liberal. as the real liberal here it is your burden to denounce the class traitor hillary clinton" and so on they fought, long into the night
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Sep 22, 2017 19:25
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boner confessor posted:"you're a liberal" cries the self identified internet leftist, throwing a jar of hot piss on his opponent Pretty much this. Koalas March posted:Whats wrong with that? What about them? they should be denounced and repudiated when they come forward with their bullshit. Of course they do. The upshot is no one should use "what about the other guys" as a deflection. Nevertheless, they persist.
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Sep 22, 2017 19:26
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McCain is like a real live Darth Vader and he's tired of the emperor zapping him with all that lightning.
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Sep 22, 2017 19:28
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