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I am concerned that we're doing a repeat of the election news coverage failure where each new Trump thing (right now, the sports protests) manages to eat up so much of our national discourse that we can't resolve other huge problems (Puerto Rico is destroyed, we're spiraling toward war with NK). How the hell have we not learned our lesson here?
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Sep 24, 2017 19:47
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Chimp_On_Stilts posted:I am concerned that we're doing a repeat of the election news coverage failure where each new Trump thing (right now, the sports protests) manages to eat up so much of our national discourse that we can't resolve other huge problems (Puerto Rico is destroyed, we're spiraling toward war with NK). tell me how you think we, with Trump in the WH and Republicans in control of everything, would have resolved those problems otherwise
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Sep 24, 2017 19:51
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Futuresight posted:If addressing black women's concerns is going to consist entirely of putting more black women in positions of power and changing the rhetoric to mention them more then that's bullshit and it can gently caress off. Holy poo poo, go gently caress yourself. Like seriously what's wrong with more black women in positions of power? Do you realize how underrepresented we are??
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Sep 24, 2017 19:52
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Chimp_On_Stilts posted:I am concerned that we're doing a repeat of the election news coverage failure where each new Trump thing (right now, the sports protests) manages to eat up so much of our national discourse that we can't resolve other huge problems (Puerto Rico is destroyed, we're spiraling toward war with NK). hot take comin' through. do you have a solution or just want to whine about how people of color, and social injustice spearheaded by the president is getting the most airtime today.
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Sep 24, 2017 19:54
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Koalas March posted:Holy poo poo, go gently caress yourself. sounds like affirmative action to me
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Sep 24, 2017 19:55
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It's absolutely fascinating and grotesquely bizarre when people say that Trump's antics distract us from a future war with North Korea when the reason that's a possibility now is, uh... Trump's antics.
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Sep 24, 2017 19:56
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Sephyr posted:Heck, just look at the SPD getting stomped in Germany. If the British COnservatives had the same policies and track record as the CDU cabinet, they would probably also trounce the Labor.
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Sep 24, 2017 19:56
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Koalas March posted:Holy poo poo, go gently caress yourself. I think he's trying to say that surface level changes or token level changes are bad, when it's actually policies that need to improve that support the average black woman instead.
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Sep 24, 2017 19:57
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hanales posted:I think he's trying to say that surface level changes or token level changes are bad, when it's actually policies that need to improve that support the average black woman instead. I hope so. But the way it was written made it sound like he meant the black women would be making this change and getting the positions of power for themselves and that's bad. 
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Sep 24, 2017 20:00
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Koalas March posted:I hope so. But the way it was written made it sound like he meant the black women would be making this change and getting the positions of power for themselves and that's bad. It seems to me what Hanales is saying is basically what Futuresight was getting at, for what it's worth.
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Sep 24, 2017 20:04
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Office Pig posted:It seems to me what Hanales is saying is basically what Futuresight was getting at, for what it's worth. its hard to tell when there isn't much difference b/t that and literally what every white person decrying AA says
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Sep 24, 2017 20:05
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Office Pig posted:It seems to me what Hanales is saying is basically what Futuresight was getting at, for what it's worth. I mean, the obvious example would be, Omarosa being in the white house. Is she pushing for policy that benefits black women as a whole, or is she there to feed the ego of trump and give him a "I don't hate black people" card? I know which side my opinion falls on.
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Sep 24, 2017 20:07
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Aves Maria! posted:its hard to tell when there isn't much difference b/t that and literally what every white person decrying AA says Well isn't that what this subforum is for? To discern the nuance that buries truth beneath propaganda? To actualize the complexities of our troubled world and the solutions that might offer us a chance to save ourselves? ... lol, no it isn't, but sometimes we get there, right?
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Sep 24, 2017 20:09
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skylined! posted:hot take comin' through. do you have a solution or just want to whine about how people of color, and social injustice spearheaded by the president is getting the most airtime today. You're right - my post sounds like I don't give a poo poo about today's protests, and that's not true. I did a lovely job expressing my thoughts. Sorry. I'll briefly try to dig myself out of this hole and will then shut up so I don't make it worse: My intent was not that I think today's protests are unimportant. Rather, I think the constant stream of crises is harming our ability to have a national discourse about basically all of them. A variant of whataboutism.
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Sep 24, 2017 20:11
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hanales posted:I think he's trying to say that surface level changes or token level changes are bad, when it's actually policies that need to improve that support the average black woman instead. all of these changes are good. promoting black women (who i guarantee you are no more or less qualified than everyone else in the same positions) creates paths and pipelines, which gets you stability. when you have stability, you have greater strength to enact real changes without your tenure being labeled "a failed experiment". because its no longer experimental. you can enact changes that help average minority people, but you also want representatives that share a common history to feel safe to push for those kinds of changes, too.
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Sep 24, 2017 20:12
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Office Pig posted:Well isn't that what this subforum is for? To discern the nuance that buries truth beneath propaganda? To actualize the complexities of our troubled world and the solutions that might offer us a chance to save ourselves? it'd be nice, but esp now that everyone is so tense ambiguous statements are just going to result in backlash bc its hard to tell who is being nuanced and who is just being a poo poo
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Sep 24, 2017 20:13
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Syenite posted:Just lol at the liberal posters unironically punching left in this thread, in our current political climate. Why wouldn't they? The leftists in this thread are bragging about how there's nothing liberals could reasonably do to make them happy. Why on Earth would the liberals want to be nice to them?
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Sep 24, 2017 20:14
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both liberals and leftists are bad that's why im a centr-
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Sep 24, 2017 20:15
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FamDav posted:all of these changes are good. promoting black women (who i guarantee you are no more or less qualified than everyone else in the same positions) creates paths and pipelines, which gets you stability. when you have stability, you have greater strength to enact real changes without your tenure being labeled "a failed experiment". because its no longer experimental. Well like anything else, if they hire someone in bad faith setting them up to fail, that isn't any better than not hiring them at all, or alternately intentionally marginalizing them once they have the job so that they can not effect any change over time, again you may as well have not hired the person, as they are now in a no-win situation. You're not going to see a lot of people jumping at those kind of perceived opportunities. Which is why a lot of systemic change is needed. Policy statements backed up by funding to enact them, actual goals and milestones laid out so people know what is being worked toward, etc... I do agree with you though, the paths have to be opened in the first place.
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Sep 24, 2017 20:16
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Ratoslov posted:Why wouldn't they? The leftists in this thread are bragging about how there's nothing liberals could reasonably do to make them happy. Why on Earth would the liberals want to be nice to them? Because they are wrong about everything, and the only way they could ever rectify their political credentials is if they stopped being liberals.
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Sep 24, 2017 20:18
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Koalas March posted:Holy poo poo, go gently caress yourself. Futuresight posted:I will say this: if Democrats did genuinely make massive strides in social justice for even a whole term, especially those that extend from abuse of authority, I think a lot of the left could easily overlook making little progress in economics for that time. Focusing on one particular aspect of the whole problem is fine, these are not easy problems and sometimes you have to take it piece by piece. But there needs to be real progress, to the full extend of the ability to make progress, for people to be happy with the progress. The social progress being made is great for grass roots organisations. But it's not enough for an actual powerful political party. Futuresight posted:If addressing black women's concerns is going to consist entirely of putting more black women in positions of power and changing the rhetoric to mention them more then that's bullshit and it can gently caress off. Futuresight posted:If addressing black women's concerns is going to consist entirely of putting more black women in positions of power and changing the rhetoric Futuresight posted:going to consist entirely of Futuresight posted:entirely of Futuresight posted:entirely of Futuresight posted:entirely of Futuresight posted:entirely of Futuresight posted:entirely of I mean come on KM. It followed a big paragraph whose entire thesis is we should absolutely focus on black women's issues. Do try to read posts without the express purpose of looking for reasons to get mad. Futuresight fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Sep 24, 2017 |
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Sep 24, 2017 20:19
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Ratoslov posted:Why wouldn't they? The leftists in this thread are bragging about how there's nothing liberals could reasonably do to make them happy. Why on Earth would the liberals want to be nice to them? Don't be stupid, they're saying that the empty words promising progress aren't good enough. Here's a hot take: leftists would be happy with liberals if they supported action that improved the lives of the average American. We're not gonna be the Team Player when supposed up-and-coming leftist leaders like Tammy Duckworth start to play the bullshit centrist game of "well advocating for better healthcare isn't practical right now". gently caress off, advocating for better lives for the average american is always loving practical, and if you fight against that you can shove your opinions where the sun don't shine and stop pretending like you're owed some token allegiance because you have the right letter next to your name. The average Democrat in Congress makes a few weak gestures on social issues to appease their base, but in most ways they are barely better than republicans. The "vote for us because the other guys are worse!" line is getting really loving old, because it has plainly been the primary factor in the party not needing to move with their constituents.
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Sep 24, 2017 20:25
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hanales posted:I mean, the obvious example would be, Omarosa being in the white house. Is she pushing for policy that benefits black women as a whole, or is she there to feed the ego of trump and give him a "I don't hate black people" card? I know which side my opinion falls on. Omarosa is a loving coon and doesn't represent the leftists and democratic women he was talking about in his post.
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Sep 24, 2017 20:28
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If leftists want to be taken seriously maybe they should stop regurgitating talking points from fascists like Putin and Assad while simultaneously pretending to be super opposed to Nazis. Y'all sound like petulant children who just want to rebel against dad. Fix your own poo poo.
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Sep 24, 2017 20:30
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Futuresight posted:I mean come on KM. It followed a big paragraph whose entire thesis is we should absolutely focus on black women's issues. Do try to read posts without the express purpose of looking for reasons to get mad. Oh yes the racist angry black woman stereotype. Good job.
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Sep 24, 2017 20:30
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Koalas March posted:Oh yes the racist angry black woman stereotype. Good job. No I'm describing you the individual.
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Sep 24, 2017 20:30
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Futuresight posted:No I'm describing you the individual. Nah, you're mad I called your post out for being poorly written and retreated to white fragility like every guy who totally means well and isn't racist I swear.
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Sep 24, 2017 20:33
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Futuresight posted:No I'm describing you the individual. Why is it so difficult to go "sorry I didn't intend to imply that, my apologies" and take the L instead of yelling at the (possibly?) sole POC in the conversation with accusations that they want to stir poo poo up? I'm seriously baffled by how this poo poo happens over and over and over again.
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Sep 24, 2017 20:38
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hanales posted:Well like anything else, if they hire someone in bad faith setting them up to fail, that isn't any better than not hiring them at all, or alternately intentionally marginalizing them once they have the job so that they can not effect any change over time, again you may as well have not hired the person, as they are now in a no-win situation. this is some milquetoast patronizing. where is all of the handwringing over white people being put into positions out of bad faith, and then marginalizing them? systemic change is needed, but it takes time. we can push for better representation of (super over)qualified minority people in this subpar system we have while also working towards systemic change. and having those surface level changes normalizes minorities in position of power and makes it safer to agitate for real changes. Futuresight posted:No I'm describing you the individual. just because you dont say poo poo like "silly negro, don't get so uppity" doesnt make your response any less demeaning hth
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Sep 24, 2017 20:39
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Taffer posted:Don't be stupid, they're saying that the empty words promising progress aren't good enough. Here's a hot take: leftists would be happy with liberals if they supported action that improved the lives of the average American. Apparently not: steinrokkan posted:Because they are wrong about everything, and the only way they could ever rectify their political credentials is if they stopped being liberals.
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Sep 24, 2017 20:44
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Ikari Worrier posted:Why is it so difficult to go "sorry I didn't intend to imply that, my apologies" and take the L instead of yelling at the (possibly?) sole POC in the conversation with accusations that they want to stir poo poo up? I'm seriously baffled by how this poo poo happens over and over and over again. If you want an example of me apologising for something you can look up the thread. And now you can go over the conversation with the knowledge I'm perfectly happy to apologise and maybe that will change your reading of what is going on. The reason I am not apologising is because this is not something to apologise for. This is KM doing her I've decided to shut you down shtick and she didn't happen to randomly hit something that even gives the cover of reasonable doubt as far as I'm concerned. If KM wants to just decide I don't get to talk unless I bow and scrape before her she can go ahead and use her mod powers. I won't do it for her. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 24, 2017 20:50
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FamDav posted:this is some milquetoast patronizing. where is all of the handwringing over white people being put into positions out of bad faith, and then marginalizing them? systemic change is needed, but it takes time. we can push for better representation of (super over)qualified minority people in this subpar system we have while also working towards systemic change. and having those surface level changes normalizes minorities in position of power and makes it safer to agitate for real changes. I don't know why you're attacking me, when I'm just talking about what actually happens in our current environment. I'm glad you're proving to the thread how much more woke you are than I am I guess. Tokenism never leads to actual change, it's a suppression and pacification tactic. That's what our current political system is currently best at, and the DNC are masters of.
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Sep 24, 2017 20:51
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Futuresight posted:If you want an example of me apologising for something you can look up the thread. And now you can go over the conversation with the knowledge I'm perfectly happy to apologise and maybe that will change your reading of what is going on. you are a child
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Sep 24, 2017 20:54
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Futuresight posted:If you want an example of me apologising for something you can look up the thread. And now you can go over the conversation with the knowledge I'm perfectly happy to apologise and maybe that will change your reading of what is going on. I see you ignored all the other posters who were wondering/worrying about what you were getting at with your post and also ignored KM herself saying that she was hoping the more charitable explanation was the correct one too in favor of zeroing in on and getting mad at the angry black woman, though.
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Sep 24, 2017 20:56
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Ratoslov posted:Apparently not: Yes, because if they supported and advocated for things that improved the lives of average americans, they would no longer be liberals, they would be leftists.
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Sep 24, 2017 20:57
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Sephyr posted:Start making a strong positive impact on voter's lives, or lose the white ones to fascists and the minority ones to apathy. It's really that simple. This is pretty much the only thing that matters. The only reason there is a fight over Medicare and ACA is because hey, there are some real repercussions for taking these away (even for the right). This is the only way for the Dems to wedge against the rising tide of racism and nationalism.
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Sep 24, 2017 20:59
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Futuresight posted:If you want an example of me apologising for something you can look up the thread. And now you can go over the conversation with the knowledge I'm perfectly happy to apologise and maybe that will change your reading of what is going on. Um you only have about a page worth of posts in this thread and I don't see you apologizing to anyone. Also..........you might want to consider why you feel okay apologizing to people who aren't KM but don't want to apologize to KM. Just something about her I guess......... (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 24, 2017 21:01
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Hawkgirl posted:Um you only have about a page worth of posts in this thread and I don't see you apologizing to anyone. Also..........you might want to consider why you feel okay apologizing to people who aren't KM but don't want to apologize to KM. Just something about her I guess......... Here you go: Futuresight posted:If using dogwhistle in that way is harmful then I didn't know and I'm sorry for that. I used it purely to mean "saying something people who are on your side will understand without explicitly saying it" and I don't know of any other word for it. The person who brought up what I was apologising for was in fact KM.
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Sep 24, 2017 21:06
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You folks all know that there are like, really racist, sexist and homophobic people who hang out on this site, and that for the most part everyone in this thread agree on the broad strokes of things, and really just want to do better right? You all spend so much time eating each other I don't know how you have time to breathe, let alone accomplish anything in real life.
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Sep 24, 2017 21:10
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hanales posted:You folks all know that there are like, really racist, sexist and homophobic people who hang out on this site, and that for the most part everyone in this thread agree on the broad strokes of things, and really just want to do better right? Personally I don't see the problem with helping people realize their own internal biases, we all have imperfections and pretending that they don't exist is kind of part of why America is so hosed up anyway. If we all want to do better, we should really be better about accepting criticism and looking inward. Futuresight posted:Here you go: Thanks 
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Sep 24, 2017 21:15
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