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"We can't advocate for M4A now, it has no chance and we have to focus on saving the ACA" "We can't advocate for M4A now, it has no chance and we have to focus on winning back the house" "We can't advocate for M4A now, it has no chance and we have to unite the party for 2020" "we can't advocate for M4A now, we have to rally behind the democratic president to make the fixes to ACA" I mean, we already had virtually the same argument when the democrats had the presidency and both houses because otherwise it would imperil passage of the ACA.
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Sep 25, 2017 01:08
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boner confessor posted:see what i mean with the two above replies. you really can't advocate for pragmatism right now without being labeled a traitor or a troll, even if there's only a few shades of nuance between the position you state and the position someone else argues You can't exactly claim to be a pragmatist when the strategy you're advocating has failed for years on end. 
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Sep 25, 2017 01:09
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boner confessor posted:see what i mean with the two above replies. you really can't advocate for pragmatism right now without being labeled a traitor or a troll They are fine and correct, in my opinion? 
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Sep 25, 2017 01:09
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Koalas March posted:They are fine and correct, in my opinion? sure but at the same time a guy itt wanted to call you a centrist leftist hater so hard he reregged an account to avoid a probation, just so he could continue to say you were attacking leftists. it's definitely a thing people love to do, as the current derail is based on rejection of my incredibly regressive statement "hey maybe when the dems aren't actually in power right now they have less capacity to get legislation passed" which isn't idealistic enough i guess like i never said "let's not do this" i just said "this is not actually the perfect time to do this, given the democrats have no power right now" but that makes me a class traitor boner confessor fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Sep 25, 2017 |
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Sep 25, 2017 01:14
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boner confessor posted:see what i mean with the two above replies. you really can't advocate for pragmatism right now without being labeled a traitor or a troll, even if there's only a few shades of nuance between the position you state and the position someone else argues Pretty sure that a true pragmatist would argue we should be pushing an idealistic leftist platform as hard as possible right now because it's the most likely way to claw our way back to a majority in congress.
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Sep 25, 2017 01:17
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boner confessor posted:sure but at the same time a guy itt wanted to call you a centrist leftist hater so hard he reregged an account to avoid a probation, just so he could continue to say you were attacking leftists. So it's guilt by association now? Come on, knock off these lame smoke bombs and tell us why you think the Dems shouldn't be pushing for Medicare for All at the moment. quote:like i never said "let's not do this" i just said "this is not actually the perfect time to do this, given the democrats have no power right now" but that makes me a class traitor I don't think anyone said "class traitor," but you are a concern troll, since you can't tell us why this is not "the perfect time to do this."
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Sep 25, 2017 01:18
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Pretty sure that a true pragmatist would argue we should be pushing an idealistic leftist platform as hard as possible right now because it's the most likely way to claw our way back to a majority in congress. i'm not really a true pragmatist so much as i'm not going far enough in saying we should reestablish a political majority by murdering all police and redistributing the land or whatever is most fashionable right now in terms of unrealistic bluster the other day i said gentrification was best dealt with on the local level and folks jumped up my rear end for a lack of imagination and one dude hilariously thought i meant the police power to regulate local land uses meant i wanted to round up all the people in public housing with cops or something equally moronic
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Sep 25, 2017 01:19
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lol @ boner confessor's desperate scramble to secure a forums ally itt (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 25, 2017 01:19
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boner confessor posted:i'm not really a true pragmatist so much as i'm not going far enough in saying we should reestablish a political majority by murdering all police and redistributing the land or whatever is most fashionable right now in terms of unrealistic bluster I like how you're equating pushing for Medicare for All with murdering all police and land redistribution.
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Sep 25, 2017 01:20
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boner confessor posted:sure but at the same time a guy itt wanted to call you a centrist leftist hater so hard he reregged an account to avoid a probation, just so he could continue to say you were attacking leftists. it's definitely a thing people love to do, as the current derail is based on rejection of my incredibly regressive statement "hey maybe when the dems aren't actually in power right now they have less capacity to get legislation passed" which isn't idealistic enough i guess Yeah and some guy earlier today got away with calling me a racist stereotype. That's just the internet. Plus, I sincerely doubt that guy you're talking about would've done the same thing if it was another mod. There's something different about me.. I don't think you're a class traitor, I just disagree with you. If I missed someone saying that you, yeah that's dumb. but I do think that now is better than later. The more we talk about it and push for it, the more it will be normalized and easier for voters to accept.
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Sep 25, 2017 01:22
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boner confessor posted:you really can't advocate for pragmatism right now without being labeled a traitor or a troll Because "pragmatism" in politics is an excuse for the status quo. You should talk high, shoot higher, then go for pragmatism and compromise when it's time for nuts-and-bolts work. Just like negotiating, you cannot start with the incremental option, because the final result will be tiny or no progress. Further, pragmatism is extremely uninspiring to people so you will never rial up a base with it. People need something to rally behind, "we'll (maybe) make tiny improvements to existing legislation" is the opposite of that.
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Sep 25, 2017 01:24
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Koalas March posted:I don't think you're a class traitor, I just disagree with you. If I missed someone saying that you, yeah that's dumb. but I do think that now is better than later. The more we talk about it and push for it, the more it will be normalized and easier for voters to accept. i agree! i just dont think that when the democrats are completely powerless that now is the "perfect time" to advocate such a thing given the last two decades of advocacy for this exact thing, and this minor semantic detail which i did not anticipate turning into a large derail ended up with people repeatedly accusing me of hating the idea of single payer healthcare. i feel like i have to be extremely careful in phrasing what i post in order to not have people looking for strawmen to attack try to turn on me and attribute statements to me which i never made. there are plenty of folks who desperately need to show off how leftist they are right now so it's just an escalating series of more-leftist-than-thou statements that are just political peacocking
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Sep 25, 2017 01:24
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boner confessor posted:yeah, because goons are stupid and can't read and there's a definite mood in this subforum of trying to fight the power by calling out posts on a dead comedy forum as being politically incorrect, whatever the content of those posts might be Do you keep on bringing up the dead comedy forum thing because you think your posts are funny? Are you trying to be a comedian in this thread? If not and you think this forum is dead, why do you remain? If you feel overly criticized and just believe you're being dogpiled what is actually in the posting for you, here, on this dead comedy forum? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 25, 2017 01:29
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We worked on the Hurricane information document today, and there are a whole mess of new PR resources to check out, including ways to get in touch with people who you haven't heard from. The American Red Cross Safe and Well Website and Univision's local information tool, where you can search by municipality and get the latest information available about the situation there, are both very helpful. If you are in the U.S. and need to find your family in Puerto Rico: Write to the Puerto Rico Federal Affairs Administration by emailing maria1@prfaa.pr.gov. Due to the large volume of emails, do not send more than one unless the situation of your family member has changed. Call the Puerto Rico Federal Affairs Administration: 202-800-3133 Call the radio station WIPR 787-777-0940 Call the Puerto Rico Family Institute at 212-414-7895. They are helping PRFAA because their lines are slammed. Just go through the recorded message and press any key. We would also like to point out an opportunity to help that seems well suited to many goons: Tech experts needed posted:People in the diaspora with a tech-related background who want to donate their expertise are encouraged to fill out the Maria Tech Recovery Effort form. This form is being managed by a group organizing through Startups of Puerto Rico who will work to connect key people on the ground in PR with the best talent in the diaspora. In order to partner effectively, they are using the form to create an “inventory” of talent that can be leveraged to help stand up services and share resources.
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Sep 25, 2017 01:29
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boner confessor posted:i agree! i just dont think that when the democrats are completely powerless that now is the "perfect time" to advocate such a thing given the last two decades of advocacy for this exact thing "Advocacy for this exact thing" meaning what, exactly? How widespread do you think this advocacy has been among Democrats, particularly Democrats in power?
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Sep 25, 2017 01:30
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boner confessor posted:i agree! i just dont think that when the democrats are completely powerless that now is the "perfect time" to advocate such a thing given the last two decades of advocacy for this exact thing, and this minor semantic detail which i did not anticipate turning into a large derail ended up with people repeatedly accusing me of hating the idea of single payer healthcare. i feel like i have to be extremely careful in phrasing what i post in order to not have people looking for strawmen to attack try to turn on me and attribute statements to me which i never made. there are plenty of folks who desperately need to show off how leftist they are right now so it's just an escalating series of more-leftist-than-thou statements that are just political peacocking New subforum title?
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Sep 25, 2017 01:36
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I don't think pushing M4A will hurt Democrats' chances of winning elections in 2018 or 2020.
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Sep 25, 2017 01:37
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Ohthehugemanatee posted:New subforum title? too long, sadly
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Sep 25, 2017 01:38
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boner confessor posted:i agree! i just dont think that when the democrats are completely powerless that now is the "perfect time" to advocate such a thing given the last two decades of advocacy for this exact thing, and this minor semantic detail which i did not anticipate turning into a large derail ended up with people repeatedly accusing me of hating the idea of single payer healthcare. i feel like i have to be extremely careful in phrasing what i post in order to not have people looking for strawmen to attack try to turn on me and attribute statements to me which i never made. there are plenty of folks who desperately need to show off how leftist they are right now so it's just an escalating series of more-leftist-than-thou statements that are just political peacocking lmao
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Sep 25, 2017 01:42
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Condiv posted:who's the jill stein wing? Jill Stein is to the left as Ted Cruz is to the right. Basically the equivalent of each other except Jill's more into viruses rather than wasps.
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Sep 25, 2017 01:44
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Boner, having careful phrasing is, again, just part of posting on the internet. It's like keeping track of your punctuation or spelling. You don't think I wanted to tell that guy off? I did. But on top of the regular care of wording that just goes with posting, I have to be extra careful because oops, now I'm an angry racist black bitch. What I'm trying to say is everything you're describing is perfectly normal. No one is attacking you. They might not being incredibly polite about it, but in the end, they're just saying that they just disagree and why.
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Sep 25, 2017 01:47
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:I don't think pushing M4A will hurt Democrats' chances of winning elections in 2018 or 2020. campaigning against the faction of the party and base who favor it sure will though
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Sep 25, 2017 01:53
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Koalas March posted:Boner, having careful phrasing is, again, just part of posting on the internet. It's like keeping track of your punctuation or spelling. oh i'm not feeling attacked, just sort of amusedly resigned that discourse is this bad right now, and i might as well get it all out before my probation goes through (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 25, 2017 01:53
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I think M4A becomes the standard when a candidate in a Democratic party presidential primary campaigns on that and wins. So, 2020. Nothing wrong with talking about it right now, but I do get mad at people preemptively deciding the Dems aren't going to go there because some are squeamish right now. A presidential primary can and will refocus a party. I mean the other guys just refocused on going full nazi, because of their presidential primary. We just had a really weird election. Clinton was a continuation of Obamaism without the charisma*. Obamaism is borne of divided government. The primary was really about who we expected to look best while holding a veto pen, since we knew the GOP was going to retain congress. I'd be really, really shocked if we don't wind up with a much more liberal/leftist** Democratic party coming out of the 2020 primary. There's no heir apparent to steamroll the field and the constituency is way more demanding now. * Clinton had a charisma but she didn't have our preconceived notions of male/dominant charisma. She had something different and it seemed off to folks who can't imagine "charismatic politician" as anything other than what it's been for the last 200 years. ** I too get confused at the difference. I just mean I expect we'll have a party that is more vocal about expanding the welfare state.
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Sep 25, 2017 01:54
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boner confessor posted:oh i'm not feeling attacked, just sort of amusedly resigned that discourse is this bad right now, and i might as well get it all out before my probation goes through You've been whining about being declared a class traitor all day.
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Sep 25, 2017 01:55
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boner confessor posted:i'm not really a true pragmatist so much as i'm not going far enough in saying we should reestablish a political majority by murdering all police and redistributing the land or whatever is most fashionable right now in terms of unrealistic bluster Dude. Come on. You can't read this and think it's good faith stuff. What is even 'being a pragmatist'? Let's do a quick recap of Dem party presidential strategies this century. 2004. Bush is n the WH being a turd, putting loons in high places, wasting american lives and treasure in Iraq and Afghanistan. They run John Kerry, whose basic message is "I'll do mostly the same stuff, but better, and with with less embarrassing gaffes. " A guy so bloodless (or heeding an establishment so bloodless) he couldn't even ind it in himself to get pissed when the supporters of a draft dodger cast his service into doubt. They get spanked, and it takes a major US city literally being drowned in filth for them to rally in 2006. 2008. The world's economy has poo poo its pants, nobody can tell how much of the financial sector has real liquidity or even solvency. Iraq is a clusterfuck. A newcomers with good populist oratory but also a conciliatory manner pops up and starts talking of single payer, pulling out of dumb wars, investing in clean energy and betting on youth engagement and all that good stuff, and has the 'no' vote on the Iraq war to back it up. Manages to pull out a win against a candidate beloved of the whole moderate establishment, helped by said dude's pick of VP and the whole uncertain atmosphere making everyone wary of letting the GOP have another go. 2012. The ACA has been passed but much of it is not in effect yet. Few people are truly happy about it, but they at least want to see it happen, and the utter shittiness of the GOP from day 1 of Obama's term makes him seem like the adult in the room. The Republicans run their version of a moderate centrist: a politician from a blue state who seems visibly uncomfortable with ding the whole 'red meat to the base' thing. Or just emoting in general. Conservatives have also gone a long way into Breitbart/Drudge territory, and not so much the familiar Fox News/National Review mindset. Obama wins, and a good part of the more engaged sect of his base hopes that now that he doesn't need to worry about re-election anymore, he'll start acting more aggressive and engaged. Hell, I had just entered SA then, and i remember posts of "I can't wait to see the Don't-give-a-gently caress Obama in action!" galore. 2016. Let's skip the primaries and stuff. It's a weird year. People are frustrated, and not just in the US. England kicks its own dick with the whole Brexit stuff because of demonstrably stupid, short-sighted poo poo. A thrice-divorced NYC reality Tv star on the record giving money to democrats is the GOP candidate, to he horror of the republican apparatus and bizarre delight of the base. His message is all over the place: he's for peace and for war, for UHC and for the free market, he'll build a wall but make a lovely door on it. Basically, his whole message is -grievance-. They have hosed with you, and I will gently caress them back. If there is a message on the wall for everyone to read, it's that a lot of people have lost trust in the system, if they don't openly despise it. In such a situation, is it 'pragmatic' to bank on candidates and policies that can only be seen as reinforcing that status quo?
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Sep 25, 2017 01:57
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boner confessor posted:oh i'm not feeling attacked, just sort of amusedly resigned that discourse is this bad right now, and i might as well get it all out before my probation goes through hmmm I must have read your tone incorrectly. I don't think you'll get a prob, but I don't mod this forum so 
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Sep 25, 2017 01:57
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Pragmatism isn't that great of a position from a moral standpoint because it's core belief is that societal morals change over time and we shouldn't judge past behaviors or beliefs because at that time that behavior was acceptable in society.
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Sep 25, 2017 02:04
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On the subject of Warren, I've seen new criticism rising for her because, despite supporting the M4A, she most recently voted for the latest insane military budget and she's been attending large donor fundraisers. For a bunch of people that, combined with her lack of backing the Sanders campaign when it mattered (which alot of people who supported Sanders were writing off as a simple political miscalculation), is starting to make people question her more seriously.
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Sep 25, 2017 02:26
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boner confessor posted:there are plenty of folks who desperately need to show off how leftist they are right now so it's just an escalating series of more-leftist-than-thou statements that are just political peacocking
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Sep 25, 2017 02:39
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Kokoro Wish posted:On the subject of Warren, I've seen new criticism rising for her because, despite supporting the M4A, she most recently voted for the latest insane military budget and she's been attending large donor fundraisers. For a bunch of people that, combined with her lack of backing the Sanders campaign when it mattered (which alot of people who supported Sanders were writing off as a simple political miscalculation), is starting to make people question her more seriously. Eh...while I'm not thrilled by any of these things, I think it's premature to write her off as an ally or potential progressive nominee. While I would like an explanation from her, I'm not going to presume the worst from the person who brought us the Consumer Finance Protection Bureau, and fought like hell to keep it alive for as long as she has.
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Sep 25, 2017 02:39
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I'm not for writing her off either, like you said, she's done work. However, actions stack up on both sides of the scale and people are using a more critical eye on her now. Support is not a given. As you said, people would like an explanation for certain things.
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Sep 25, 2017 02:51
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https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/911942687464607745 https://twitter.com/rugger4equality/status/912134865079996417 newt's lesbian half-sister should get on tv more
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Sep 25, 2017 03:04
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Hellblazer187 posted:* Clinton had a charisma but she didn't have our preconceived notions of male/dominant charisma. She had something different and it seemed off to folks who can't imagine "charismatic politician" as anything other than what it's been for the last 200 years. hey who gave ezra klein a forums account seriously though, she's nixon with even worse political instincts
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Sep 25, 2017 03:24
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SO close to self-awareness. 
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Sep 25, 2017 03:29
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boner confessor posted:i'm not really a true pragmatist so much as i'm not going far enough in saying we should reestablish a political majority by murdering all police and redistributing the land or whatever is most fashionable right now in terms of unrealistic bluster I too am skeptical of the "murder all police officers" section of the Medicare For All bill, sounds needlessly divisive. What was Bernie thinking.
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Sep 25, 2017 03:32
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Leftist decoder ring: Healthcare -> kill every single cop Education -> murder all whites Tax the rich -> send everyone with a net worth over $10,000 to Siberia Break up too-big-too-fail banks -> Holocaust Part 2 Hitler Boogaloo Thanks noted serious interlocutor "Popular Thug Drink" for providing us with these essential insights into the leftist plot to destroy Real America
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Sep 25, 2017 03:35
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The Muppets On PCP posted:hey who gave ezra klein a forums account I very much like Ezra. And Hillary.
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Sep 25, 2017 03:41
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i'm not saying all cops should die but like they should at least lose their jobs and be replaced with new guys who undergo psych evals and completely different training. however if that's the plan that bernie wants, who am I to say differently
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Sep 25, 2017 03:42
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Koalas March posted:i'm not saying all cops should die but like policing as it exists should die
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Sep 25, 2017 03:45
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