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Koalas March posted:i'm not saying all cops should die but like Honestly I think that the attention on training is the wrong place to focus. It's the policing culture as a whole. The work environment is far too tolerant of bad cops, not that there is a good level of tolerance. There's nothing there right now that says that 'this is bad' and any police force that has these problems is going to keep having them until they're torn down and rebuilt from the ground up. The 'good' police forces are ones where from the very top they emphasized and focused on those things that helps to reduce that 'Us vs Them' mentality that plagues so many groups. Taerkar fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Sep 25, 2017 |
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Sep 25, 2017 03:53
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It's been brought up before but they reinforce that mentality constantly. They still show that one video of the trooper getting assassinated on the side of the road when he misreads a sov cit guy in a truck. You have to change the way police are trained before you can do anything else, or you're only treating the symptoms, not the cause.
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Sep 25, 2017 03:56
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Grapplejack posted:It's been brought up before but they reinforce that mentality constantly. They still show that one video of the trooper getting assassinated on the side of the road when he misreads a sov cit guy in a truck. You have to change the way police are trained before you can do anything else, or you're only treating the symptoms, not the cause. All the more reason to end police ticketing drivers by pulling them over. Make cop cars into drivable red light cameras and send the ticket for a broken taillight in the mail.
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Sep 25, 2017 04:16
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The strangest thing about American police to me is how often they just run plates at random. When I was last in the US I was driving with someone whose car was previously registered (like 5 years before) to a dude who had an outstanding warrant, and every 2nd time we drove anywhere we'd get pulled over because his name came up when they ran the plates. Once I was high as gently caress as well, which scared the poo poo outta me. Also got pulled over multiple times riding in other cars too, a single month in the US and get pulled over more than an entire lifetime in my country.
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Sep 25, 2017 04:28
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redistribute the police and murder all land
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Sep 25, 2017 04:29
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Grapplejack posted:It's been brought up before but they reinforce that mentality constantly. They still show that one video of the trooper getting assassinated on the side of the road when he misreads a sov cit guy in a truck. You have to change the way police are trained before you can do anything else, or you're only treating the symptoms, not the cause. You can train the recruits to not be horrible profiling shits, but then they're going to go to their assigned district were other officers will directly or indirectly encourage them to be horrible profiling shits. That video isn't used in initial training.
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Sep 25, 2017 04:35
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boner confessor posted:i agree! i just dont think that when the democrats are completely powerless that now is the "perfect time" to advocate such a thing given the last two decades of advocacy for this exact thing, and this minor semantic detail which i did not anticipate turning into a large derail ended up with people repeatedly accusing me of hating the idea of single payer healthcare. i feel like i have to be extremely careful in phrasing what i post in order to not have people looking for strawmen to attack try to turn on me and attribute statements to me which i never made. there are plenty of folks who desperately need to show off how leftist they are right now so it's just an escalating series of more-leftist-than-thou statements that are just political peacocking I think that when you're powerless is the perfect time to advocate for a transformative, radical agenda. See Obama. But seriously, from a pragmatic perspective, advocating for a radical agenda is mostly a win-win situation. Either you regain power and can then choose to implement the agenda or not (although if you don't, you'll join the Obama club too), or you don't and you can try to moderate your opinion next time. Now, you may happily jump in and say "but what if advocating the radical agenda is what keeps you out of power in the first place?". To that I would say that it kind of looks like America hungers for idealism. Strong rhetoric and imperfect promises of a better tomorrow. The difference is that if we on the left don't make those promises (and try to deliver on them), the right will... except instead of health care, their idealism is more centered around blood and soil. The public will happily eat whatever idealism it is given... so maybe make sure it's yours. e: Complaining and offering "unrealistic" ideas is pretty much the staple of opposition politics in most western nations. I'm not sure how you can't see the "pragmatism" of this. Pembroke Fuse fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Sep 25, 2017 |
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Sep 25, 2017 04:39
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El Pollo Blanco posted:The strangest thing about American police to me is how often they just run plates at random. When I was last in the US I was driving with someone whose car was previously registered (like 5 years before) to a dude who had an outstanding warrant, and every 2nd time we drove anywhere we'd get pulled over because his name came up when they ran the plates. Once I was high as gently caress as well, which scared the poo poo outta me. It's not random, it's built in to a lot of their cars to automatically scan plates and pop up when they get a hit. https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/04/how-license-plate-readers-have-helped-police-and-lenders-target-the-poor/479436/
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Sep 25, 2017 04:40
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Taerkar posted:You can train the recruits to not be horrible profiling shits, but then they're going to go to their assigned district were other officers will directly or indirectly encourage them to be horrible profiling shits. TBH, a significant part of the problem is the 2nd amendment. When there is a meaningful chance that a random traffic stop may be an armed maniac, it breeds a bit of paranoia. Without the prevalence of guns cops can afford to be more cautious. There's a lot that can be done while accomodating it, of course, but it remains a fundamental problem. I am all in favor of the repeal of the 2nd, but I'm realistic enough to know it's not going to happen in my lifetime, if ever.
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Sep 25, 2017 04:42
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JUST MAKING CHILI posted:It's not random, it's built in to a lot of their cars to automatically scan plates and pop up when they get a hit. Ah, I should have known this would be the case, thanks!
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Sep 25, 2017 05:09
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Grapplejack posted:It's been brought up before but they reinforce that mentality constantly. They still show that one video of the trooper getting assassinated on the side of the road when he misreads a sov cit guy in a truck. You have to change the way police are trained before you can do anything else, or you're only treating the symptoms, not the cause. I like how 99.99999999999999% of those are white and yet cops still think non whites are SSJ985738947 god black(color not race) death warriors.
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Sep 25, 2017 05:19
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Trabisnikof posted:Make cop cars into drivable red light cameras and send the ticket for a broken taillight in the mail.
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Sep 25, 2017 05:36
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FlamingLiberal posted:As someone who works in an office that deals with tickets, that's not going to help much. Most people don't keep their address updated with the DMV and then their red light tickets get them suspended without them knowing. That will certainly help with cops using simple motor vehicle stops as a means to begin escalating interactions that end with the cop killing someone. Obviously there are numerous issues with police in America, but ending traffic stops for some set of traffic violations would meaningfully reduce the number of times a cop has an excuse to pull over and potentially terrorize or kill members of the community. That's worth it alone.
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Sep 25, 2017 05:42
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FlamingLiberal posted:As someone who works in an office that deals with tickets, that's not going to help much. Most people don't keep their address updated with the DMV and then their red light tickets get them suspended without them knowing. Speaking as someone who didn't keep my address up to date, got a ticket, and then got my license suspended without my knowing... I now keep my address very up to date with the DMV. I think this is one of those problems that just sort of goes away once people get used to the idea that if they don't do that thing, bad things happen. Right now it's rare that you actually need to get official mail from the DMV (for most people it's just license renewal/registration reminders) that it's easy to forget.
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Sep 25, 2017 05:45
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Trabisnikof posted:That will certainly help with cops using simple motor vehicle stops as a means to begin escalating interactions that end with the cop killing someone. Well, I guess until they get pulled over for driving with a suspended license and then shot.
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Sep 25, 2017 05:56
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boner confessor posted:i have bad news for you about the size of the left and the potential future impact of their criticism, even in this the "twitter magnifies every bad idea" era I realize the left in terms of "literal socialists, etc" still isn't big, but Sanders' support alone proves that, at the very least, the Democrats' constituency is moving considerably to the left. Some of the stuff Bernie Sanders has been arguing for (even just stuff like free public college or single-payer) would have never gained any momentum in the past, but now it's a very significant and at least somewhat influential portion of the Democratic Party. boner confessor posted:see what i mean with the two above replies. you really can't advocate for pragmatism right now without being labeled a traitor or a troll, even if there's only a few shades of nuance between the position you state and the position someone else argues You provide no evidence of anything being "pragmatic"; you either just assert that it's the case or assume that whatever happens to be advocated by mainstream Democrats/liberals must be "pragmatic" by default. Look, just be honest. We both know that your desire to be contrarian on topics like this has nothing to do with logic or reason or whatever; it's just because you're annoyed by the handful of more obnoxious leftist posters on this forum and elsewhere. I used to be the same way towards radical left-wing people back when I was in college; I saw some dumb-seeming people from a campus socialist organization of some sort, and it made me feel the need to take a contrarian position against them. boner confessor posted:sure but at the same time a guy itt wanted to call you a centrist leftist hater so hard he reregged an account to avoid a probation, just so he could continue to say you were attacking leftists. it's definitely a thing people love to do, as the current derail is based on rejection of my incredibly regressive statement "hey maybe when the dems aren't actually in power right now they have less capacity to get legislation passed" which isn't idealistic enough i guess There are important things politicians can do other than directly pass legislation, especially when they're not in power like this. Having politicians speak of certain ideas helps to legitimize them in the mind of the public; see single-payer going from something super-radical and unheard of to an idea many Americans take seriously. I also can't conceive of any reason why people both advocating for MfA and wanting to defeat the Republican bill poses a problem. The former isn't actually causing any harm, because it's not like "diluting" the healthcare-related political message is going to magically result in Republicans passing the bill when they otherwise wouldn't be able to. edit: This is a good example of a "pragmatic" thing that actually has no basis in reality and is just something people assume to be reasonable/true because of the source and manner in which they initially encountered the idea. boner confessor posted:it's just an escalating series of more-leftist-than-thou statements that are just political peacocking Isn't that basically another synonym for "virtue signalling"? Why is it any more acceptable to assume that socialist/leftist people are being dishonest when they express left-leaning political views than it is to assume that a person is being dishonest when they express positive views on social issues? Of course there are people in both cases for which this applies, but who cares? They're still advocating for something good, regardless of intent (unless you don't think it's good, in which case you should argue on ideological grounds instead of this bizarre contrarian thing). edit: I mean, stuff like this basically reveals that the person saying it doesn't actually take these issues seriously. Assuming that people are just trying to "virtue signal" when they show support for social issues is (correctly) treated as something kinda hosed up, but for some reason this same reasoning doesn't apply to assuming the same thing about people advocating for left-leaning political causes. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 06:26 on Sep 25, 2017 |
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Sep 25, 2017 06:03
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Ytlaya posted:Look, just be honest. We both know that your desire to be contrarian on topics like this has nothing to do with logic or reason or whatever; it's just because you're annoyed by the handful of more obnoxious leftist posters on this forum and elsewhere. I used to be the same way towards radical left-wing people back when I was in college; I saw some dumb-seeming people from a campus socialist organization of some sort, and it made me feel the need to take a contrarian position against them. This perfectly describes pretty much the first several years' worth of political posts I made here. "Heh, leftists.  "
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Sep 25, 2017 06:31
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While Sanders support shows people are more left its hard to use it as a way to guage the actuall number of socialists out there. Free college and single payer is what he talks about and people go for, not an end to private enterprise. Not that it really matters too much since any end to capitalism will be gradual and come after the establishment of a larger nordic style welfare state. Short of revolution, which Im not sure is the best thing for the us, with its abundance of nuclear weapons.
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Sep 25, 2017 06:37
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boner confessor posted:not sufficiently disdainful of the democrats, or weirdly accelerationist. basically what the bad thread was meant to contain You workshop some ideas to rationalize denying healthcare to the people, and they all latch onto it like a pack of jackals, it's PC gone mad, I tell you boner confessor posted:see what i mean with the two above replies. you really can't advocate for pragmatism right now without being labeled a traitor or a troll, even if there's only a few shades of nuance between the position you state and the position someone else argues *standing on top of the Ozymandias statue, its features eroded with sand and crumbled away* You children need to accept that fixing this thing is pragmatic, and if you go and build your own statue, you should know you are just making this one worse for everybody else. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 07:14 on Sep 25, 2017 |
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Sep 25, 2017 07:10
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Deteriorata posted:TBH, a significant part of the problem is the 2nd amendment. When there is a meaningful chance that a random traffic stop may be an armed maniac, it breeds a bit of paranoia. Without the prevalence of guns cops can afford to be more cautious. Have had this same thought before that yeah, the goofy gun culture obviously doesn't help things. Like even if we completely flushed out and restaffed the police with better training, it would probably still only go so far in some situations, because even with a perfectly civil police force, this country being what it is there'd still always be some little level of creeping fear that this guy you pulled over for speeding is gonna murder you because they're a crazy sovcit or a nazi or whatever else.
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Sep 25, 2017 07:26
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boner confessor posted:oh i'm not feeling attacked, just sort of amusedly resigned that discourse is this bad right now, and i might as well get it all out before my probation goes through No puppet. You're the puppet.
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Sep 25, 2017 07:43
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Ytlaya posted:Look, just be honest. We both know that your desire to be contrarian on topics like this has nothing to do with logic or reason or whatever; it's just because you're annoyed by the handful of more obnoxious leftist posters on this forum and elsewhere. I used to be the same way towards radical left-wing people back when I was in college; I saw some dumb-seeming people from a campus socialist organization of some sort, and it made me feel the need to take a contrarian position against them. Leftists have also been portrayed as crazy and rabid anti-American fanatics in the media and popular culture basically since Vietnam, so there's all that programming to contend with too, as decades of corporate and MIC propaganda have instilled bloodlust and war lust into the population. This has been very successful in making the left into a scary boogeyman trying to destroy America by siding with foreign enemies (and by extension criticizing all-American capitalism). Look at what happened to anyone circa 2003 who even suggested that maybe invading a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 was a dumb or wrong thing to do, let alone what happened to the very few who dared question whether sending the army into the Graveyard of Empires forever was a good idea. Hell look at the raging and gnashing of teeth that happens on this very left-of-center board if someone suggests that maybe Curtis LeMay was right and incinerating thousands of Japanese schoolchildren was unnecessary and wrong to do.
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Sep 25, 2017 07:46
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VitalSigns posted:Hell look at the raging and gnashing of teeth that happens on this very left-of-center board if someone suggests that maybe Curtis LeMay was right and incinerating thousands of Japanese schoolchildren was unnecessary and wrong to do. i dont think you understand who curtis lemay was and what he was all about. turns out he was completely in favor of incinerating civilians VVV if anyone needed more proof about how dissenting the wrong way gets people super mad itt boner confessor fucked around with this message at 07:55 on Sep 25, 2017 |
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Sep 25, 2017 07:50
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boner confessor posted:i dont think you understand who curtis lemay was and what he was all about. turns out he was completely in favor of incinerating civilians So no response to the failed "I'm a pragmatist" strategy? Still think you're smarter and more reasonable than the entire forum because we tried talking about healthcare reform before once and it didn't work, therefore it's much better and wiser to do nothing this time around? Or are you just going to try to roll right past how stupid you've looked over the last few pages?
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Sep 25, 2017 07:53
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boner confessor posted:i dont think you understand who curtis lemay was and what he was all about. turns out he was completely in favor of incinerating civilians Dissent is worthless if it is based entirely on some weird mental construct of "pragmatism" that is very obviously detached from reality.
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Sep 25, 2017 08:01
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boner confessor posted:VVV if anyone needed more proof about how dissenting the wrong way gets people super mad itt God drat dude, have some loving insight and self awareness, realize you were wrong about a thing, and learn from it. Or just project and attack forever, a real good way to live life.
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Sep 25, 2017 08:04
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please realize that nobody cares how much you hate me, least of all me
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Sep 25, 2017 08:04
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It's not hate, it's frustration. Learn something!!!
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Sep 25, 2017 08:05
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i think "pragmatism" is a bad idea since it's lead to nazis gaining power everywhere. the germans just had a major nazi party gain a lot of power out of nowhere in their government cause the big left-wing party has been being pragmatically centrist for too long. likewise, nazis are gaining a foothold in france thanks to useless centrism, and of course you all saw where centrism got us here in america. this is just the natural results of our leaders deciding only the center and the right wing deserves voices. people just end up going to the right instead of sticking with centrists who believe in nothing but enriching the rich, cause the rightwing is smart enough to lie and say they'll help the people being crushed under centrist policies. it also doesn't help that centrists are uselessly impotent in the face of the right-wing but endlessly hate the left and will help the right suppress the left Condiv fucked around with this message at 08:14 on Sep 25, 2017 |
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Sep 25, 2017 08:11
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boner confessor posted:i dont think you understand who curtis lemay was and what he was all about. turns out he was completely in favor of incinerating civilians See case in point.
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Sep 25, 2017 08:14
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Ytlaya posted:Isn't that basically another synonym for "virtue signalling"? Why is it any more acceptable to assume that socialist/leftist people are being dishonest when they express left-leaning political views than it is to assume that a person is being dishonest when they express positive views on social issues? Of course there are people in both cases for which this applies, but who cares? They're still advocating for something good, regardless of intent (unless you don't think it's good, in which case you should argue on ideological grounds instead of this bizarre contrarian thing). Which I think people are mostly doing. It's just that we ignore boner confessor for other reasons, which he mistakes for impertinence.
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Sep 25, 2017 08:16
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Condiv posted:i think "pragmatism" is a bad idea since it's lead to nazis gaining power everywhere. the germans just had a major nazi party gain a lot of power out of nowhere in their government cause the big left-wing party has been being pragmatically centrist for too long. likewise, nazis are gaining a foothold in france thanks to useless centrism, and of course you all saw where centrism got us here in america. Just call them liberals.
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Sep 25, 2017 08:21
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Pragmatism isn't an ideology, it's a tactic. It should never dictate what you ask for, only how you go about getting it. When it stops being useful then ironically the pragmatic thing to do would be to discard it.
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Sep 25, 2017 08:48
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Ohthehugemanatee posted:New subforum title? No.
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Sep 25, 2017 08:48
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botany posted:it doesn't fix the underlying problem though. east germany votes for the latest protest party in huge numbers pretty much every time they get the chance, because unemployment is still significantly worse than in the west, and it doesn't correlate with lack of professional education either. if you want to get rid of extremists, you need to actually fix that problem. merkel, in one of the TV townhalls, had to be pressed to say something about poverty in old age and her response after 12 years of chancellorship was "i'll have to look into that". hey guys, does this sound familiar? maybe something like massive unemployment in the rust belt with centrists deciding to focus on the rich parts of america instead? this is the end result of centrism/liberalism. it feeds directly into the far-right, cause the far-right isn't as stupid as centrists and will pretend like they'll actually do something for the people being crushed, and whoops now you've got nazis/nazi-sympathizers in your government.
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Sep 25, 2017 08:54
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Condiv posted:hey guys, does this sound familiar? maybe something like massive unemployment in the rust belt with centrists deciding to focus on the rich parts of america instead? Except at least under Merkel the difference between East and West shrunk significantly. 
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Sep 25, 2017 09:16
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steinrokkan posted:Except at least under Merkel the difference between East and West shrunk significantly. looks to me like the median got hit p hard and is just now catching up to 1991 wages. yeah, the average in the east improved, but the average is effected more by outliers like the ultra-rich and it's not surprising they'd be doing better under a centrist regime
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Sep 25, 2017 09:21
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Condiv posted:looks to me like the median got hit p hard and is just now catching up to 1991 wages. yeah, the average in the east improved, but the average is effected more by outliers like the ultra-rich and it's not surprising they'd be doing better under a centrist regime Merkel won for the first time in 2005, which is when the curve turns upward. Before that it was bona fide centrist third wayist Schröder who oversaw the stagnation, if not an outright downward trend. That fucker should be getting all the hate instead of Merkel.
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Sep 25, 2017 09:25
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merkel should have taken her marxism-leninism courses more seriously imo
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Sep 25, 2017 09:34
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steinrokkan posted:Merkel won for the first time in 2005, which is when the curve turns upward. Before that it was bona fide centrist third wayist Schröder who oversaw the stagnation, if not an outright downward trend. That fucker should be getting all the hate instead of Merkel.  seems like east germans have seen a sharp rise in poverty risk since merkel, so it doesn't seem like she's that great for east germany. R. Guyovich posted:merkel should have taken her marxism-leninism courses more seriously imo
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