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Elotana posted:Ban the words "centrist" and "leftist" from this thread imho Word filters work better.
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Sep 25, 2017 18:34
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steinrokkan posted:You know how this can be achieved? You should help too! Xae posted:Word filters work better. I propose switching them.
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Sep 25, 2017 18:35
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I want it to, which is why I advocate for it every way I can. Given that you vehemently oppose any attempt to move the Overton Window to the left, I'm not sure I can believe this.
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Sep 25, 2017 18:35
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The problem with Centrists from the perspective of those who are on the left or the right is that Centrists don't actually stand for anything. The problem with the left or the right from the perspective of Centrists is that the truth doesn't just lie exclusively with one side or the other; there is good to be found on both sides and we should create policy based on what works best rather than based on ideology. The real problem with Centrism in the US is exactly what steinrokkan described; the US only leaves room for 2 viable parties in our electoral system and therefore the only thing Centrism really accomplishes in the greater political space is to shift the discussion towards the center-right. Hence the shifting of the overton window over the last 30 years. If we want the political discussion itself to remain "centered", with only two parties, then the clear choice is that they be firmly to the left and to the right. I personally think that the better solution is a left party and a centrist party, to shift the discussion back in that direction, but that's partly because our right-wing party as it stands currently is completely bankrupt and deserves to be gutted and forgotten. I don't have a philosophical problem in the end with politics having a "right-wing", in general. Just not the GOP.
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Sep 25, 2017 18:37
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Majorian posted:Given that you vehemently oppose any attempt to move the Overton Window to the left, I'm not sure I can believe this. please tell me what I oppose and why. I do so love being informed by someone who reacts to 4 month old twitter posts by people he really hates. berserker posted:I personally think that the better solution is a left party and a centrist party, to shift the discussion back in that direction, but that's partly because our right-wing party as it stands currently is completely bankrupt and deserves to be gutted and forgotten. I don't have a philosophical problem in the end with politics having a "right-wing". Just not the GOP. I would really like this. If we can bust the GOP up enough to the point where they are a regional party, the ideal outcome would be a big tent center party, and a left wing party. that would make the political machine drag left overtime instead of dragging right like it has for 35 year or more. Heck Yes! Loam! fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Sep 25, 2017 |
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Sep 25, 2017 18:37
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Hellblazer187 posted:I think it's extremely small amount of Sanders folks who went full Trump (or nearly as bad, full Stein), and it's extremely small amount of Clintonites who say those things about Sanders supporters now after the election. The Twitter feeds of a few prominent moderate PoCs are pretty much just them dunking on an endless stream of white self-described leftists shouting IDENTITYYYYY POLITIIIIICS  like braying morons, and using it to reinforce the claim that is the American left in a nutshell. It's not very pretty on either end.
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Sep 25, 2017 18:38
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OtherworldlyInvader posted:If you seriously believe Macron is "better than Le Pen, but only just", I'm guessing you're very much insulated from the effects of fascists taking over. If you seriously believe Macron is much better than Le Pen, I'm guessing you're very much insulated from the effects of austerity that have helped fuel the re-rise of fascism.
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Sep 25, 2017 18:42
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:please tell me what I oppose and why. I do so love being informed by someone who reacts to 4 month old twitter posts by people he really hates. There's the continued reflexive contrarian one-liners. You might be taking people's criticism personally, but it's clear you aren't taking this discussion seriously. Taerkar posted:See also how the knives came out earlier in the threat in regards to the defense appropriations vote that passed with overwhelming support. Spending hundreds of billions of dollars on executing the global poor is Bad, and it's despicable that both parties were pulling at the leash to jump onto it. I am really struggling to square how you think this is a good thing with how you think you agree with 95% of leftist policies. This is the fundamental core of what the struggle is about. We're trying to tell people that the status quo is loving awful, and it was loving awful even when Democrats were in control, because there is no push to actually and tangibly improve the lives of people.
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Sep 25, 2017 18:42
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Lol good ideas on the right? What right wing ideas are good?
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Sep 25, 2017 18:43
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:please tell me what I oppose and why. I mean, you were pretty clear with your beliefs here: Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I'm the centrist. I'm not sure what else I'm supposed to take from this, beyond, "Raaaaawr I hate leftists!"
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Sep 25, 2017 18:43
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SKULL.GIF posted:There's the continued reflexive contrarian one-liners. You might be taking people's criticism personally, but it's clear you aren't taking this discussion seriously. I try to engage in good faith when I am engaged in good faith. Likely not perfect at it, but I do try. Majoran is 50/50 o the good faith-o-meter.
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Sep 25, 2017 18:45
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SKULL.GIF posted:Actually, spending hundreds of billions of dollars on executing the global poor is Bad, and it's despicable that both parties were pulling at the leash to jump onto it. I am really struggling to square how you think this is a good thing with how you think you agree with 95% of leftist policies. In this country right now a politician that ran on a 'No money for the military' platform wouldn't even break ten percent. It's ugly and it's horrible, but it's a simple fact of the American voting psyche. Taerkar fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Sep 25, 2017 |
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Sep 25, 2017 18:45
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:The Twitter feeds of a few prominent moderate PoCs are pretty much just them dunking on an endless stream of white self-described leftists shouting IDENTITYYYYY POLITIIIIICS Twitter is stupid and you shouldn't use it as an estimate of broader consensus.
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Sep 25, 2017 18:45
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:This 100% Don't backtrack. You literally accused me of putting words in your mouth.
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Sep 25, 2017 18:46
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I try to engage in good faith when I am engaged in good faith. Likely not perfect at it, but I do try. Majoran is 50/50 o the good faith-o-meter. First of all, I like that you can't even be bothered to spell my username right. Secondly, in what way am I not arguing in good faith? Give me an example.
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Sep 25, 2017 18:47
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Condiv posted:Lol good ideas on the right? What right wing ideas are good? I am waiting for an answer to this. 
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Sep 25, 2017 18:48
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I think hate and greed are bad. Good right wing ideas: fireworks on the 4th of July, that Tom Sawyer song.
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Sep 25, 2017 18:48
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Majorian posted:I mean, you were pretty clear with your beliefs here: Yes, I find the ideology of internet leftism to be toxic and wasteful. your intentions may not be, but the way some "leftists" conduct themselves is repugnant. I am likely not much better, as I m allowing in the mud right next to you, but I am at least not going to pretend that I am superior while wallowing in it.
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Sep 25, 2017 18:49
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Taerkar posted:In this country right now a political that ran on a 'No money for the military' platform wouldn't even break ten percent. It's ugly and it's horrible, but it's a simple fact of the American voting psyche. This! This is a GREAT example! "It's awful, but we don't really have a choice about it.  It's just the facts" There is no vision here, there is no political will, there is no idealism. This is why increasing amounts of people are pushing back against liberals.Your reaction is immediately "No money for the military, then?  " instead of, I don't know, "Less money," "Less military adventurism," or even "Not waging multiple foreign wars" or something.It's deeply frustrating to see hundreds of billions of dollars being tossed into an almost literal fire with the rhetorical equivalent of a shrug and a "What can you do?" remark, then these same people turning around and going "How are you going to pay for this thing that will help millions? How are you going to implement it? Give me 800 pages of detail RIGHT NOW, or it's just going to be completely unrealistic. We can't do it."
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Sep 25, 2017 18:50
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I seriously need to go out and buy some straw futures.Koalas March posted:I am waiting for an answer to this. I keep on pushing back the timeline to try and come up with something. I think I'm around the 1910s.
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Sep 25, 2017 18:50
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Yes, I find the ideology of internet leftism to be toxic and wasteful. your intentions may not be, but the way some "leftists" conduct themselves is repugnant. The way that centrists conduct themselves is equally repugnant to a lot of us. For example, as I mentioned earlier, people responding to Tom Perez's tweet about putting more black women in leadership positions in the Democratic Party, with, "gently caress BERNIE! KICK HIS SUPPORTERS OUT OF THE PARTY!" quote:I am likely not much better, as I m allowing in the mud right next to you, but I am at least not going to pretend that I am superior while wallowing in it. First of all, you are very much pretending that you are superior. Secondly, in what way am I wallowing in the mud? What am I saying that is unfair or inaccurate? I'm being pretty nice to you overall, particularly given how much antipathy you've shown towards people on the left in general, for seemingly no good reason. You've planted your flag multiple times, proudly proclaiming that you dislike the left. Don't whine to me about being dogpiled or treated with frustration or disdain.
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Sep 25, 2017 18:52
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Just as a reminder, Trump ran on a platform of isolationism and repeatedly criticized American wars in North Africa and the Middle East. That he immediately backtracked onto that once he got into office and began trying to expand American imperialism doesn't undo that many, many people on the right supported a candidate that openly called the Iraq War a mistake and a waste of money. You could argue (and I would find it very convincing) that Trump's white supremacy outweighed his campaign's isolationist policies, but American voters clearly can be persuaded to roll back on the military spending.
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Sep 25, 2017 18:54
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SKULL.GIF posted:Just as a reminder, Trump ran on a platform of isolationism and repeatedly criticized American wars in North Africa and the Middle East. That he immediately backtracked onto that once he got into office and began trying to expand American imperialism doesn't undo that many, many people on the right supported a candidate that openly called the Iraq War a mistake and a waste of money. You could argue (and I would find it very convincing) that Trump's white supremacy outweighed his campaign's isolationist policies, but American voters clearly can be persuaded to roll back on the military spending. Trump won because of white supremacy. Isolationism is part of that.
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Sep 25, 2017 18:55
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Taerkar posted:I seriously need to go out and buy some straw futures. I think the Right is correct that regulation often times fails to accomplish its goals, but cost a great deal of money to comply with. Where I differ from the Right think that means that specific regulation should be fixed, not that the concept of regulation is wrong.
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Sep 25, 2017 18:55
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Koalas March posted:Don't backtrack. You literally accused me of putting words in your mouth. Did you see me make this post? Heck Yes! Loam! posted:It was mostly others, but this: at that point in the conversation multiple posters had told me what I do and to not believe. and I took issue with that. You addition added to that and I felt it was inaccurate. Now, I can't control how you think centrist believe, but I as a centrist do not believe those things or advocate for them, in fact much the opposite.
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Sep 25, 2017 18:55
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SKULL.GIF posted:Just as a reminder, Trump ran on a platform of isolationism and repeatedly criticized American wars in North Africa and the Middle East. That he immediately backtracked onto that once he got into office and began trying to expand American imperialism doesn't undo that many, many people on the right supported a candidate that openly called the Iraq War a mistake and a waste of money. You could argue (and I would find it very convincing) that Trump's white supremacy outweighed his campaign's isolationist policies, but American voters clearly can be persuaded to roll back on the military spending. He also ran on a platform of Nuking Them and Taking Their Oil. Xae posted:I think the Right is correct that regulation often times fails to accomplish its goals, but cost a great deal of money to comply with. Eh... They're right about that in the absolute wrong way though, often due to them intentionally sabotaging or weakening said regulations. That's like saying that I'm right about a window being broken because I through a rock through it. E: Another example is that they complain about the tax code being complicated, which is certainly true, but they're intentionally glossing over why it's the way it is. Taerkar fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Sep 25, 2017 |
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Sep 25, 2017 18:55
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Did you see me make this post? Ok but clearly you see that I making a general statement, even if you assume that's inaccurate, it clearly doesn't have anything to do with you. YOU put yourself in that group so that you could attack me. Again, how did I put words in your mouth by making a general statement (even that had a qualifier to indicate it wasn't all of them)? also: https://twitter.com/JuddLegum/status/912373845675343872
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Sep 25, 2017 18:58
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Xae posted:I think the Right is correct that regulation often times fails to accomplish its goals, but cost a great deal of money to comply with. Shameful The right is never right
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Sep 25, 2017 18:58
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I am having trouble understanding people who self identify as left or center because I am complex enough that it would never be a meaningful term. Why would you be so reductionist to yourself? We have a lot of work to do and some 40% of the population actively working against us, I'm not sure how much catharsis can justify this infighting.
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Sep 25, 2017 19:00
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How Christ-like.
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Sep 25, 2017 19:01
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Condiv posted:Shameful Three rights make a left.
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Sep 25, 2017 19:01
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Taerkar posted:Eh... They're right about that in the absolute wrong way though, often due to them intentionally sabotaging or weakening said regulations. That's like saying that I'm right about a window being broken because I through a rock through it. Even without the Right sabotaging them there can still be mistakes. Those mistakes should be fixed. And in general regulation should be done to stop or prevent a problem, not as punishment. For example bunch of New Deal programs were failures. It was a credit to FDR that they found the programs that failed and either eliminated them or fixed them.
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Sep 25, 2017 19:01
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Condiv posted:Shameful 
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Sep 25, 2017 19:01
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Majorian posted:The way that centrists conduct themselves is equally repugnant to a lot of us. For example, as I mentioned earlier, people responding to Tom Perez's tweet about putting more black women in leadership positions in the Democratic Party, with, "gently caress BERNIE! KICK HIS SUPPORTERS OUT OF THE PARTY!" Those people are stupid, and you're just calling them centrist because you disagree with them? They sound more like rich privileged white people that what I would identify as centrism. Maybe they were the centrists of the 90's, but today it's a different mindset, and I would reject anyone like that from my circle of acquaintances and friends. I want to make this clear: I am in no way better than anyone posting here. My disagreement with your actions or beliefs does not mean i am implying I am better. We are all flawed, and need to be drawn to water sometimes. I didn't mean to misspell your username, sorry. Lastly, if you are posting about politics on the internet on a comedy forum, you are wallowing in the mud.
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Sep 25, 2017 19:03
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Xae posted:Even without the Right sabotaging them there can still be mistakes. There can be mistakes, certainly, but it still doesn't make the right correct about them in any way, especially considering that their answer for any regulation, functioning as intended or not, is 'tear it down'. Build up walls, tear down the rules about building them safely!
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Sep 25, 2017 19:04
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Koalas March posted:Ok but clearly you see that I making a general statement, even if you assume that's inaccurate, it clearly doesn't have anything to do with you. YOU put yourself in that group so that you could attack me. I don't think i attacked you . I was just pointing out that I didn't agree with your label. I was already defensive and lumped you into a group I shouldn't have. I apologize.
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Sep 25, 2017 19:05
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Those people are stupid, and you're just calling them centrist because you disagree with them? I'm calling them "centrist," because they oppose a politician who is trying to move the party to the left on economic issues. Their motives might be personal, but I doubt they would support moving in an economic justice direction if someone else were heading the effort instead. They want to maintain the Democratic status quo, so calling them centrists is appropriate.
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Sep 25, 2017 19:06
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I used to be a centrist but then the political climate lurched so far to the right that now I'm a leftist.
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Sep 25, 2017 19:09
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Majorian posted:How Christ-like. Luke 22:36 - He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a flag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one to smite those who disrespect your flag."
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Sep 25, 2017 19:09
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:I used to be a centrist but then the political climate lurched so far to the right that now I'm a leftist.  freckle posted:Luke 22:36 - He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a flag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one to smite those who disrespect your flag." The people were astonished at his teachings!
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Sep 25, 2017 19:10
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