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oh hey its madtv's only funny sketch
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Sep 25, 2017 20:17
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Potato Salad posted:Funny part about the more....vile? flavor of attack dog leftism: its not who I actually seem to meet in the real world showing up for protests, showing up outside courthouses and jails, showing up for canvassing for progressives. There's a reason to call them internet leftists.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:19
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Sincere apologies to all the libs who can no longer post about how great they think the DNC is sans blowback.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:19
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I can't believe that asking centrists to define a core set of beliefs and policies is too much for their fragile egos. Also, it's really loving offensive to imply that people on the left are not the ones showing up to protests, because I guarantee you'll find a lot more genuine leftists on the streets than liberals.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:22
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The Kingfish posted:Sincere apologies to all the libs who can no longer post about how great they think the DNC is sans blowback. opposite of reality dot jpeg You'll find no particularly broad love for Dems in this thread's history. Maybe opinions can be more than all-in love vs all-in hate? 🤔
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Sep 25, 2017 20:22
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InnercityGriot posted:I can't believe that asking centrists to define a core set of beliefs and policies is too much for their fragile egos. The gently caress are you talking about? The only self identified centrist here was told he wasn't really a centrist so what the gently caress are you looking for, exactly? Potato Salad posted:Maybe opinions can be more than all-in love vs all-in hate? 🤔 Spoken like a true centrist.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:27
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InnercityGriot posted:Also, it's really loving offensive to imply that people on the left are not the ones showing up to protests, because I guarantee you'll find a lot more genuine leftists on the streets than liberals. The lefties and progressives I canvas with are not the kind who try desperately to interpret the goings on of the US Left Of Center And Leftward Tent in as negative a light as possible from the outset. I'm basically sitting hey're trying to convey how people on the left outside this forum try not to generate and throw gobs of red meat to the alt right.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:27
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Nevvy Z posted:Spoken like a true centrist. Yes, noted malcomite and communist yet centrist Potato Salad.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:29
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I'm a cool serious communist and anti-racist who thinks the hard left SA thread was indistinguishable from /r/the_donald.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:32
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The Kingfish posted:I'm a cool serious communist and anti-racist who thinks the hard left SA thread was rhetorically indistinguishable from /r/the_donald. This, but unironically
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Sep 25, 2017 20:36
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Nevvy Z posted:The gently caress are you talking about? The only self identified centrist here was told he wasn't really a centrist so what the gently caress are you looking for, exactly There's been several people in here claiming that centrism was being defined for them by people who don't know what it means. Okay, so define it. What are you so angry about? Potato Salad posted:The lefties and progressives I canvas with are not the kind who try desperately to interpret the goings on of the US Left Of Center And Leftward Tent in as negative a light as possible from the outset. The alt right doesn't need red meat, they're already crazed. Being self-critical and aware is necessary if the left is going to beat back insurgent soft authoritarianism. I apologize if people's tone is worrying to you, but these discussions are necessary.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:36
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The Waste thread was just "link thing, whine." That's no  hard left thread to be proud of.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:37
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:There's a reason to call them internet leftists. I agree, but not 100% in the way you think. I will say that this was really evident around the convention, when people supporting the establishment talked about how they couldn't wait to slurp up the fat white guy tears, and when the protesting DNC delegates were on display...it was all photogenic young men and women of color. The lesson there being that it's easy to get caught up in your own imagination, viewing your opposition as irrational angry people with nothing of real substance to present, but in reality most of them are actually civil, kind, and entirely reasonable. It's a lot easier to be hostile to an avatar than a person.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:40
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Potato Salad posted:The Waste thread was just "link thing, whine." That's no There's bad posters in every thread. I'm less worried about tone-policing and backseat moderating than I am whether the center is genuinely interested in amending their beliefs at all.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:40
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InnercityGriot posted:There's been several people in here claiming that centrism was being defined for them by people who don't know what it means. Okay, so define it. What are you so angry about? No one is angry. You just talk a lot of poo poo about people who don't really seem to be here or even exist. It was confusing. InnercityGriot posted:There's bad posters in every thread. Every thread you are in, anyway. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Sep 25, 2017 |
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Sep 25, 2017 20:41
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InnercityGriot posted:I apologize if people's tone is worrying to you, but these discussions are necessary. Tone has nothing to do with anything, and my shitposting should make that very clear. gently caress, the most rapid cadence of tone policing I've seen in this forum outside GBS was the endless "Look how awful this shrill centrist liberal in [this tweet] is" The Waste thread had a little bit of good posting, but it was mostly pages and pages of tone policing twitter linking bullshit. That stuff can stay dead, and please do carry over the good posting about actual leftism.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:42
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Taerkar posted:I'm at the point now where I don't think regional representation is a good thing anymore. While it can avoid the problem of certain voices being ignored, it also can easily create the problem of other voices being marginalized. The balance, IMO, is representing as many people overall as possible. Disagree completely. Space and place plays a huge role in our culture and society and shouldn't ignore that role in politics. We need means to include those varying voices in our representative democracy. The issue is that we have a pro-rural bias in our House because of the mandate that congressional districts cannot cross state lines. Take climate change adaptation for example. That's a highly localized issue and we will need representatives from communities all over the nation to make sure our responses are broad and flexible enough to make sure we're handling the changes that our communities are facing across the nation. Additionally, at-large districts have a huge history of being a tool for minority suppression. There's a reason cities are moving away from at-large districts towards single member ones.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:43
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Nevvy Z posted:No one is angry. You just talk a lot of poo poo about people who don't really seem to be here or even exist. Lol at "talking poo poo". You're a loving baby.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:43
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You can tell when people are making serious comments about serious politics when they link some rando nobody's twitter to poo poo on them for bad political posting
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Sep 25, 2017 20:45
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Waste built this enormous strawman around centrism and its posters are having trouble refocusing on what's important now that the "paste link, post about awfulness" thread is closed. If you're someone mad at the Dems for running a, "Hey, look how bad Trump is" campaign with little substance, let me tell you about the Waste thread's "Hey, look how bad Dems are"
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Sep 25, 2017 20:45
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InnercityGriot posted:Lol at "talking poo poo". You're a loving baby. Whatever dummy. Potato Salad posted:The Waste thread had a little bit of good posting, but it was mostly pages and pages of tone policing twitter linking bullshit. That stuff can stay dead, and please do carry over the good posting about actual leftism. Actual leftism is cool and good. Internet leftists are dumb and bad.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:45
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Centrism seems indistinguishable from pragmatism to me and as many posters have pointed out, both are tactics, not ideologies. Centrism: I support policies that are already solidly mainstream, popular, and easy to implement politically. Yeah the American healthcare system is terrible, but a universal or single-payer system? Let's not get crazy! Next you'll want racial and gender equality, an end to American military adventurism, and immigration reform. Half or more of the country are jingoistic racists and doing any of those things would be difficult. So let's be reasonable and settle for incremental change. What would a centrist ideology even look like? The only thing I can think of is "things are mostly okay as they are" and if you believe that, gently caress you.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:46
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Nevvy Z posted:Actual leftism is cool and good. Internet leftists are dumb and bad. I don't like "internet leftists" as pejorative because that's not really the issue. You're right and I agree, but it's more like "circlejerk leftism is dumb and bad" It's not even really that some of the worst posters in Waste were necessairily bad and incapable of contributing elsewhere. It was the behavior encouraged and incubated in that specific thread that was both spiteful and worthless
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Sep 25, 2017 20:50
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Potato Salad posted:Waste built this enormous strawman around centrism and its posters are having trouble refocusing on what's important now that the "paste link, post about awfulness" thread is closed. I'm not trying to argue that the Waste thread was amazing, but there were worthwhile critiques there, including the point that in order for there to be a legitimately useful/successful antidote to Trump/the GOP, democrats do need to get it together and make moves left. Kamala Harris and other dems adopting UHC even as a signaling move has been well received on the left, if not monolithically, I don't think most people are arguing in bad faith.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:52
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:My beliefs have evolved quite a bit since i was 18 and first became political. Being raised with a liberal mother and a racist alcoholic father started me with an unhealthy mindset, and I had to work my way out of that hole. I grew up fairly poor, and my mom divorced my dad when i was 1. She worked three jobs and drat near killed herself to get us out of the hellholf of my fathers life. We lived in a women's shelter for a year or more when I was 5 or 6. during that time I was able to see first hand a tiny sliver of the pain that people endure to take care of themselves and their loved ones. It hasn't gotten better for these people since I was there, as the women's shelter was shut down in the late 90's due to lack of funding. The only reason my mother was able to get out and improve things for us is that she won a lawsuit against my father and forced him to pay back child support. We moved into a small apartment and my mom was able to keep us afloat until all her kids moved out and were able to support themselves. Wow, thank you so much for sharing that with me. I am sorry about your upbringing, but for what it's worth I can relate to a lot of it. If you want to talk or just need to vent, feel free to PM me. 
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Sep 25, 2017 20:53
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Pellisworth posted:Centrism seems indistinguishable from pragmatism to me and as many posters have pointed out, both are tactics, not ideologies. Yeah but, like, who actually identifies as the centrist you're describing Center left isn't even really very status quo. I feel like people took the image of American Moderates/Center Independents that are really just closet Republicans, convinced themselves those are actually representative of the center left, and built a thread around it.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:54
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Potato Salad posted:I don't like "internet leftists" as pejorative because that's not really the issue. You're right and I agree, but it's more like "circlejerk leftism is dumb and bad" This is more akin to what I think than that they only espouse leftist beliefs on the internet. Many people of good intention post like assholes on the internet, me included.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:54
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Pellisworth posted:What would a centrist ideology even look like? The only thing I can think of is "things are mostly okay as they are" and if you believe that, gently caress you. A Buddhist informed ideology would seek to minimize suffering out of compassion but acknowledge that it's inherent to existence. Aggressively trying to eliminate it only makes things worse.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:54
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Can't wait to "tone-police" this thread and purge it of wrongthink.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:55
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Pellisworth posted:What would a centrist ideology even look like? The only thing I can think of is "things are mostly okay as they are" and if you believe that, gently caress you.
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Sep 25, 2017 20:55
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Pellisworth posted:Centrism seems indistinguishable from pragmatism to me and as many posters have pointed out, both are tactics, not ideologies. You have to go back to ideological basics, if the Right is fundamentally arguing the best action is either maintaining the status quo or regressing to the past and the Left is fundamentally arguing that the best action is changing the status quo in degrees from "$15 an hour" all the way to "end wage slavery" then centrism is South Parkin' it and believing there are some things that need to change and some that need to stay the same. Pragmatism is instead a tactic that deals with the question of "do you take a little victory now or hold out for a big victory later." Pragmatists can be Nazis (e.g. accepting the Muslim ban as a good first step instead of demanding banning all non-white non-christians) or Leftist (e.g. accepting $15/hr minimum wage as a good first step instead of a real living wage).
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Sep 25, 2017 20:57
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InnercityGriot posted:I'm not trying to argue that the Waste thread was amazing, but there were worthwhile critiques there, including the point that in order for there to be a legitimately useful/successful antidote to Trump/the GOP, democrats do need to get it together and make moves left. Kamala Harris and other dems adopting UHC even as a signaling move has been well received on the left, if not monolithically, I don't think most people are arguing in bad faith. I don't think you're posting in bad faith, and I recognize the fact that the Waste thread had some substance. Some of the stuff I've seen in there -- lots of it, frankly -- is the sort of substance-light positive idea feedback looping that I saw in the early t_d subreddit. Its dangerous, and the flare ups of that taking place in here that can be substituted for better leftism advocacy
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Sep 25, 2017 20:59
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Here's my hot take: none of the compromises Democrats make with Republicans win them votes with "independent voters" who are by-and-large charisma-driven beliefless stumps, nor "moderate Republicans" who do not exist. And Republicans have become so toxic, stupid, and unthinking that those compromises alienate the kind of people who think "both sides are bad"
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Sep 25, 2017 20:59
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twodot posted:I think there's room for a political philosophy of "Change is inherently risky, we shouldn't treat our society like a laboratory testing and trying various policies. New policy, especially radical policy, should be backed by strong evidence and only then adopted", but that's what conservatives are supposed to be instead of whatever insane racist caricature the US ended up with. (I disagree with that philosophy, but I wouldn't reflexively call someone supporting it an idiot) But you're describing progressivism not conservatism. Conservatism is fundamentally arguing that we shouldn't change the status quo at all, or if we do change it, it is only to undo the changes previous progressives have made. The basic assumption that we can always improve our society isn't shared with the ideological conservative.
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Sep 25, 2017 21:01
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The Kingfish posted:Can't wait to "tone-police" this thread and purge it of wrongthink. Get out if you aren't going to contribute.
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Sep 25, 2017 21:04
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ikanreed posted:Here's my hot take: none of the compromises Democrats make with Republicans win them votes with "independent voters" who are by-and-large charisma-driven beliefless stumps, nor "moderate Republicans" who do not exist. You're completely correct. We've seen that "independents" aren't going to be wooed by compromise for the sake of compromise. If that's the case, Dems may as well negotiate for things that are good on their own, like saving DACA immigrants and preventing a government shutdown. Neither of these were bad moves, imo. I can get behind doing good for people.
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Sep 25, 2017 21:05
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Oh no the discourse.
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Sep 25, 2017 21:06
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what is the ideology of people who think bernie having a debate with graham and cassidy wrt their poo poo bill is a bad idea? cause i don't like that ideology i guess we can just call it cowardice?
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Sep 25, 2017 21:06
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re: photos of protestors being rounded up in the Capitol Could you imagine if a bunch of freepers in camo showed up to the G-C hearings? [Virginian blue blood accent] "I'm so glad to see so many interested and involved members of the public with us today..."
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Sep 25, 2017 21:09
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